Convention Center, CVB & Tourism

[Urban_Legend]

Back to the Convention Center, has Jacksonville.com ever run an online poll on "Does Jacksonville need a new convention center?" I'd like to see how many people in Jax would support it.

[bobliocatt]

Yes, there was a poll a couple of months ago. Most voted against having a new convention center because they felt Jax could never compete for conventions against Orlando and Atlanta. However, many recommended the existing center be renovated.

[scongro]

I don't believe Jacksonville will ever compete with the big convention cities (Orlando, Chicago, New Orleans and Las Vegas). However, I believe we can complete with Atlanta, especially with an entertainment district downtown, within walking distance from the center and area hotels.

[merlin]

I don't believe Jacksonville will ever compete with the big convention cities (Orlando, Chicago, New Orleans and Las Vegas).  However, I believe we can complete with Atlanta, especially with an entertainment district downtown, within walking distance from the center and area hotels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think we could compete with Orlando. Many people do not want to go to orlando due to traffic and mass amounts of people. So in that regard I think that we could give Orlando a run for it's money.

[RiversideGator]

Plus, the Convention Center in Orlando is kind of in the middle of nowhere in relation to downtown. I think we can create a unique experience for conventioneers with a vibrant downtown convention center, near the river, with many leisure activities close by (i.e. golf, beaches, fishing, etc). I dont think the question is whether or not we can compete with Orlando's convention center, but rather can we compete with Des Moines convention center at this point because ours is so ridiculously small. This is why we must expand.

[Viper]

I dont think the question is whether or not we can compete with Orlando's convention center, but rather can we compete with Des Moines convention center at this point because ours is so ridiculously small.  This is why we must expand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly what I was saying. Our citizens don't think we can compete simply because most are not familiar with just how tiny our convention center really is. Wichita Falls Tx just built a facility that can compete with ours and that's a metro of 150k we're talking about. If a metro of 150k has the balls to compete with those well over 1 million then why can we set up one and market the hell out of it and snag a few away from Atl and Orlando?

We gained a football expansion when they said we were too small.

We hosted the SuperBowl when they said we were too small.

It's about time we start playing up the field.

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

By the way, if the City does go with a highrise courthouse, I think the old Dade County Courthouse is one of a greatest designs around:  http://www.jud10.org/Courthouses/Dade/dade4.jpg

We should basically make ours a bigger version of that.  I think it is a very dignified courthouse bldg.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I AGREE, BUILD IT TO A SIMILAR DESIGN BUT GIVE IT A SIGNATURE JACKSONVILLE LOOK AND MODERN/CONTEMPORARY TASTE. YES, I AGREE.

FLORIDA SKYRISE

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

Yes, there was a poll a couple of months ago.  Most voted against having a new convention center because they felt Jax could never compete for conventions against Orlando and Atlanta.  However, many recommended the existing center be renovated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I DISAGREE THAT WE CAN'T COMPETE; I FEEL THAT WE ALWAYS COULD COMPETE IF OUR CITY LEADERS DID THE OLD COLLEGE POLC (PLAN, ORGANIZE, LEAD AND CONTROL) TO ENSURE THE ENTIRE PROJECT AND THE CITY/COMMUNITY MARKETING OF PROJECTS PROPERLY AND AGGRESSIVELY MANAGED, AND SAW THROUGH TO SUCCESSFUL AND COMPLETE FRUITION. OUR CITY LEADERS SEEM TO BE LAZY AND SMALL MINDED AT THE SAME TIME.

AS SOMEONE MENTIONED IN A PREVIOUS FORUM, THE SUPER BOWL HAS GIVEN JACKSONVILLE A MUCH NEEDED LAUNCH PAD AND BOOST, EXPOSURE-WISE, NOT ONLY NATIONALLY BUT ALSO INTERNATIONALLY. IT IS NOW UP TO THE CITY, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY CITY LEADERS, TO BE CONFIDENT, AGGRESSIVE, FOCUSED, AND "LARGE MINDED" ABOUT JACKSONVILLE'S EFFORTS NOT ONLY REGARDING A NEW CONVENTION CENTER, BUT IN ALL ASPECTS OF CURRENT AND FUTURE PROJECT CONSTRUCTION ON THE DRAWING BOARDS.

"DAMN THE TORPEDO'S, FULL SPEED AHEAD!"

FLORIDA SKYRISE

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

I don't believe Jacksonville will ever compete with the big convention cities (Orlando, Chicago, New Orleans and Las Vegas).  However, I believe we can complete with Atlanta, especially with an entertainment district downtown, within walking distance from the center and area hotels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NO WE WILL NEVER COMPETE OR STACK UP AGAINST ANYTHING OR ANYBODY AS LONG AS WE HAVE THIS "SMALL MINDED" BACKWOODS COMPLEX.

THIS BRINGS TO MIND THE STORY OF THE LITTLE ENGINE THAT COULD. YOU MUST BE POSITIVE, FOCUSED, CONFIDENT, AND THINK LARGE IN ORDER TO STAND UP TO THE BIG BOYS OR COMPETE WITH THEM.

I ADMIRE OUR CITY FOR THE EFFORTS IN GETTING AN NFL FRANCHISE, AND THE SUPERBOWL; JACKSONVILLE MUST DO THINGS AND THINK IN THIS TYPE MINDSET AND VAIN 24 HOURS A DAY (24-7); IF WE DO THIS, THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CANNOT ACCOMPLISH.

FLORIDA SKYRISE

[afh]

NO WE WILL NEVER COMPETE OR STACK UP AGAINST ANYTHING OR ANYBODY AS LONG AS WE HAVE THIS "SMALL MINDED" BACKWOODS COMPLEX. 

FLORIDA SKYRISE

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree completely. I think that this type of attitude is changing among some of citizens and one or two local politicans but that is it. Some of the people not all seem to have the wait and see attitude. There were people that I knew who swore up and down that the Superbowl would be a bust. I spoke positive things to these people and gave them reasons why it would work and how it could work. But they just wanted to stay stuck in the assbackwards way of thinking. Well, guess what? The Superbowl worked and now those same people are saying that it was a success and that they knew that it would work. Yeah, right.

The politicans don't have the vision b/c they have the "small minded" attitude that you mentioned. They don't have any vision and hopefully J'ville will elect officials who have a bigger vision for the City as opposed to the "awe shucks" golly gee willikers we just a small city trying to grow up attitude. Expand your minds people. There is so much potential that just isn't being tapped. Luckily, there are business people and citizens in the community who are seizing upon the potential.

[bobliocatt]

While we're talking about politicans and vision, does anyone here, know anything about the two guys (Eric Smith & Ronnie Fussell) running for the at-large city council seat? Which one of these guys, favors inner city development over sprawl?

[wolfdawg54]

To be honest, I really did not have time to research on the council seat to begin with but it would really be valuable information. Yesterday, I looked on the internet for information regarding their campaign and long term plans but did not find anything.

[RiversideGator]

Fussell is a Republican and a developer (I assume of suburban housing). Eric Smith is a Democrat and currently a law professor at FL Coastal. I dont know where either stands on downtown development, etc., but it seems to me that Fussell may be more pro-business. For some reason, the media never seem to ask important questions of the different candidates.

[vicupstate]

Fussell is a Republican and a developer (I assume of suburban housing).  Eric Smith is a Democrat and currently a law professor at FL Coastal.  I dont know where either stands on downtown development, etc., but it seems to me that Fussell may be more pro-business.  For some reason, the media never seem to ask important questions of the different candidates.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There was an article on these guys in the Daily Record or TU a few days back. Smith has been on the council before. I don't remember anything particularly negative about his tenure before. Fussell was on Mayor Delaney's staff. Isn't the election next week?

This is a subject very suitable for this forum. I will try to find that article and post it.

[Rock2uf]

I AGREE, BUILD IT TO A SIMILAR DESIGN BUT GIVE IT A SIGNATURE JACKSONVILLE LOOK AND MODERN/CONTEMPORARY TASTE.  YES, I AGREE.

FLORIDA SKYRISE

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey all, I'm new to the site, though I've been reading along on random topics for a while.

I agree, the Dade courthouse is an attractive design. Another high-rise courthouse in Florida, Orlando's Orange County Courthouse, is a pretty impressive design in itself. When I first saw it, I thought it looked rediculous because it is so isolated from the rest of the skyline. But, it has since grown on me. It is very modern in design, but yet it somehow retains a monumental courthouse-like feel. Jax could probably steal a few ideas from this one, though, ultimately the original domed design would have been best.

[vicupstate]

Welcome to the forum Rock2uf!

[Urban_Legend]

Yes, welcome indeed!

[vicupstate]

Editorial from the T-U:

CONVENTIONS: Dare to dream

As a major city located on the beach in sun-soaked Florida, Jacksonville is an ideal site for conventions -- or, more precisely, it would be one if it had a spacious facility to accommodate them.

That is why reasonable people hope the Convention and Visitors Bureau can come up with a financially feasible plan to attract more, and larger, conventions for the city.

According to a Times-Union article, the CVB would like to see a new structure more than twice the size of the Prime Osborn center and costing perhaps hundreds of millions of dollars.

Jacksonville has a lot to offer conventioneers -- scenic riverwalks and the unique experience of water taxis, for example, not to mention balmy weather, professional football and picturesque beaches.

The only question is timing -- and that, unfortunately, is not an easy obstacle to overcome.

The convention industry is in a slump. Spending on centers has increased dramatically in recent years, Forbes magazine reports, but attendance has dropped -- saddling cities with heavy losses, in many cases.

Also, Mayor John Peyton adamantly opposes a new convention center.

Peyton has spent his entire administration dealing with cost overruns on a courthouse project that he inherited from his predecessor. There isn't enough money to build roads. JEA is having financial problems.

No wonder he would rather fix potholes than invest huge sums of scarce public dollars in a depressed industry.

Our thought is that the CVB still might conceivably be able to win over the mayor and public, however, if it scales back its dreams.

For a start, forget about building a convention center on the river. Call for expanding the Prime Osborn. That would ensure adequate parking, save a lot of money and keep some valuable property on the tax rolls.

Or, at the very least, put the center on the land now occupied by the Courthouse and City Hall Annex, both which will close in a few years. They are on the river, but at least the city already owns the land.

Next, suggest fitting historic LaVilla into the equation, perhaps by turning it into an entertainment center.

Then propose that the scaled-down convention center be financed through the bed tax.

Finally, deal with the numbers. Even when the industry is stagnant, better facilities no doubt would draw many more conventions. The CVB must make a convincing case that the benefits really would outweigh the costs.

We hope Jacksonville can become a major convention city. But to make that happen now, the CVB will have to plan realistically, then marshal its arguments carefully.

Here's an idea: Why not have the T-U trade it's land and buildings at 1 Riverside for the Prime Osborn! That would put the Convention Center on the river and still give the Prime Osborn a useful purpose.

The T-U offices consist of a 5 story small footprinted office building and a large footprinted printing production building. Judging from a picture I have of it, the production plant is the height of a 2-3 story building. I would expect that most or all of it would be a high-ceiling single story plant. I would suspect that such space, devoid of the printing equipment, could be made suitable for convention exhibit/meeting space. The remainder of the considerable lot is mostly surface parking. It appears from the picture I have that there is also some parking under the 5 story building.

Breaking it down, this is what would happen..

** The T-U moves it's printing production into the exhibit space of the Osborn, refer to the areas labeled Exhibition A & B in the link below. This would be 78,000 sq. ft. This area already has loading docks and has high ceilings. If that is not sufficient space, perhaps the kitchen area could be added to the printing production area as well. If that still isn't enough, there is plenty of room for expansion on the west side of Exhibition Hall B.

** The T-U offices would be put in the areas labeled Ballroom North & South, Rooms 102-107, and all the areas in the Mezzanine level. Again, there is room for expansion both on the West and North sides if needed.

** The Terminal (Grand Lobby/room 101/offices) portion would be keep by the city for use as a musuem. It could be a Jax History musuem, a children's musuem, A Rail musuem, a transportation musuem (former train station next to a monorail), a journalism museum, a new MOSH , or some combination of these.

**The area lying between the Terminal and the Exhibit areas labeled "Pre Function? area" (print in link is too small to read) could go either to the musuem or the T-U based on need.

**The T-U print production building would be coverted to Exhibit/meeting space. The remainder of the buildings would likely have to come down and new convention facilities would go it there place.

**There is a vacant lot between the Haskell building and the T-U land that would be suitable for a mixed use project that would include a convention center hotel, condos, offices, and retail/restaurants. Alternatively, there would be room for the hotel on the T-U site itself.

Attached is a Link to the Osborn Center's floor plans.

Prime Osborn Center

Pros & Cons:

Pros:

+Jake Godbold wouldn't have to worry about the Terminal building being mothballed.

+ The Convention Center would be on the river and within short walking distance from the Landing (via the Riverwalk) and by extention, Laura Street and Bay Street.

+ The Hotel would have probably the best available river and skyline views in the entire city. That would be a nice drawing card for conventions.

+ A skyway station could be added at the place where it joins the Acosta bridge, that would be a very short walk from the T-U site. Alternately, the Skyway maintenance facility is one block across from Riverside Avenue from the T-U site.

+ This would boost the redevelopment of Brooklyn.

+ The city would have an excellent location and facility for a new or expanded musuem.

+ If the MOSH did relocate to the Terminal building, it would free up extremely valuable Southbank riverfront property for a higher and better use.

+ LaVilla would pick up a major employer base to support restaurants, etc. A daily (7/24) presence of T-U employees would probably have more impact than the occasional convention visitor that the Osborn Center gets now.

+ The close proximity of the new convention center to the Performing Arts Center would perhaps add value to attract certain conventions. Maybe a musicians convention or something. Or just a group that needs a large auditorium in addition to exhibit/meeting space. The Performing Art Center auditoriums seat 609, 1,7244 and 2,979 respectively.

+ This plan would not interfere with plans for the Transportation Center in any way.

+ The T-U is on record (see article above) in favor of making Jax a "major convention city" and to "dare to dream".

+ The T-U has been philanthrophic to the city in the past, (i.e. the Performing Arts Center). Hopefully they would be open to trading the properties based on a somewhat conservative value of their property, say pre-Fidelity value?

+ The land could be divided so that the hotel would still be on private (and thus property-tax paying) rather than the public parcel.

+ The site is sufficiently large and the center would have room for expansion. Eventually the "Front Lawn" of the Haskell building could be added into the site.

+ The City Hall annex and Courthouse sites would be unaffected and still available for conversion to private ownership.

+ It would be easy and no doubt profitable to add a Water Taxi stop at the T-U site.

+ Even if the plan couldn't be implemented immediately, there would be value in knowing "this is the plan, this is what will happen, everyone plan accordingly". Plus there is value in just settling this protracted and divisive issue.

Cons:

+ Even if the T-U is reasonable in their valuation of their property, it would still cost significant money to do this. One cost would be the cost, and loss of value, in razing the 5 story T-U building. But, at least the city would be countering that by getting full value for the Prime Osborn in exchange.

+ The entire Convention Center issue is controversial. Anything other than the cheapest alternative will raise some ire.

+ Logistically, this will be difficult. If the T-U moves into the Prime Osborn Center first, there would be NO convention facility available for some period of time. Not a good thing. Since most conventions are scheduled 2-3 years in advance, the move probably couldn't start until the already scheduled conventions are completed. Probably the easiest thing would be to move the T-U offices to leased space in a nearby office building. Then raze the 5 story T-U building and build the new portion of the convention center. When the new part is operational, the conventions start meeting there. At that point the printing production and T-U offices move to the Osborn Center. After the printing equipment is out of the existing T-U building, that portion is converted to exhibit/meeting space.

Ok, there is my idea, please feel free to add to the Pros and Cons. I am not an architect and this is based on aerial photos and maps, what have I missed? Do you like it or hate it? As you can tell, I kinda got on a roll and couldn't stop...

[vicupstate]

^^ Doing some additional research on this on coj.net, I found this info:

* The T-U site is listed as selling in 2003 for $16.7 mm and has 312,883 of heated sq footage.

* The Prime Osborn Center site is listed as having a Tax-exempted value of $49mm and has 258,005 sq. footage.

These values seem way of of balance (T-U too low, Prime Osborn too high). Of course an independent appraisal would be required of both sites, but they may be fairly close in value.

Coj.net lists both the T-U site and the Prime Osborn as 18.8 acres. Coincidence? I think not - destiny!

Looking at the actual map however, I think the T-U site includes some land that is underwater. In reality it is probaly 13-15 acres. Still big enough for a convention center though. The difference in size would help keep the swap an 'even trade' though.

Another "Pro" I thought of, is the T-U site currently "bridges over" McCoy's Creek. It could be opened up. You could even send boats or gondalas up it to get conventioneers to the new musuem at the Prime Osborn. The creek would need a major clean-up though.

[wolfdawg54]

Hey all, I'm new to the site, though I've been reading along on random topics for a while.

I agree, the Dade courthouse is an attractive design.  Another high-rise courthouse in Florida, Orlando's Orange County Courthouse, is a pretty impressive design in itself.  When I first saw it, I thought it looked rediculous because it is so isolated from the rest of the skyline.  But, it has since grown on me.  It is very modern in design, but yet it somehow retains a monumental courthouse-like feel.  Jax could probably steal a few ideas from this one, though, ultimately the original domed design would have been best.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Welcome and who knows what will happen with the whole courthouse issue. At this point, Jacksonville just needs to move the project foreward somehow.

[Urban_Legend]

Whoa Vic! You get an "A" for effort on this idea! It never even occured to me about the T-U. I don't know if the powers at be would be up for that though.

[Rock2uf]

vicupstate,

That's one hell of a proposal. Nice work. How could Jax structure the deal so that T-U would want to go though with this logistical nightmare? Sure the T-U is all for helping Jax become a more vibrant city, but it will ultimately come down to how the T-U will benefit financially from a move like this. I don't have the answer, but I did enjoy your proposal.

[scongro]

The whole Times Union thing never occurred to me, but that is actually not a bad idea. You have plenty of land and the riverwalk links it to the rest of downtown, however I really don't see it happening, because of the fact that it would probably cost the Times Union quite a bit to move.

I still think that the industrial riverfront site near the stadium would be great (however this is probably cost-prohibitive as well. Though it is a longer walk to the Bay St. Town Center, we could be proactive and run the Skyway all the way down there. From Central Station, you can have a stop at the City Hall Annex, the Shipyards, the Sports Complex (one stop in right field of the Ballpark would probably serve the whole complex, and the last one at the convention center.

Not to mention, I think that the Mathews Bridge serves as a nice border between downtown and the Tallyrand industrial area. Parking can be shared with the Stadium as well.

[wolfdawg54]

Oh, good idea scongro. The only problem that might come up is easy accessibility for the center. For out-of-towners, it would be a little more difficult to get there than somewhere a little closer to 95. But, the Martin Luther King Jr. Parkway is there, which would lead to 95. It is a great idea, nonetheless.

[vicupstate]

The whole Times Union thing never occurred to me, but that is actually not a bad idea.