How do North Carolinians perceive us?

[Spartan]

Charlotte is sort of a defacto "Capital of the Carolinas." It is central to the whole of both states, it is the largest city in both states, and of course its metro spans both states. I have always thoguht of it as NC, but its not like foreign territory.

Now if SC annexed Charlotte? That would be something. I can tell you that the City of Charlotte wouldn't get any larger. There would be so many minute thigns to change.... State funding for anyhting. UNCC.... USC-Charlotte? They might not like that I know that "Carolina" in NC means UNC, and "Carolina" in SC means USC. That would be weird.

I like the idea of residents in the Charlotte Metro being able to attend any higher learning institution at "in state" tuition prices.

[Mr.Marc]

Seems that most of the people on this site are well-educated concerning things about urban politics and culture and all that. However, as a South Carolinian who is employed in North Carolina (Charlotte to be exact), sometimes when I mention that I'm from South Carolina, it seems as though the North Carolinians would like to think they're "superior" to us. I know one guy who lives in W-S who attempted to take a cheap shot at SC by mentioning that Alabama's four largest cities were all larger than our largest city, Columbia. When I told him that we have our annexation laws to thank for that, he ignored me and went off on a tangent. So, from my fellow South Carolinians, how do you think we are viewed by North Carolinians, culturally and otherwise? Personally I think there's not much difference (other than size).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I personally feel that a lot of North Carolinians think they are superior to us. I dont' know why, but what I do know is they have nothing on our beaches. Sometimes I see as many NC tags at our many beaches than SC tags.

[monsoon]

I personally feel that a lot of North Carolinians think they are superior to us. I dont' know why, but what I do know is they have nothing on our beaches. Sometimes I see as many NC tags at our many beaches than SC tags.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well at least on the beaches part, SC beaches are much closer to a good portion of Nc than any beach in NC. For example in Charlotte, Myrtle Beach to Charleston is reachable in 3-4 hours, while the closest NC beach in the Wilmington area is more like 4-5 hours. And forget the upper outerbanks, that is an all day drive.

[eastsider]

There has been more than one Eastern NC politican who has said to let SC annex Charlotte.  Wouldn't that be something?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't miss the state income tax at all

Charlotte definatly does like the tag of being leaders in the carolinas. I think that most people in this part of the state don't see much of a separation between NC & SC. I have known of people who do feel superior to SC, but really have nothing other than childish reasoning. Of course there are northern transplants who feel superiorto just about everyone, including people who were raised in this city.

I think what sc lacks is a national identity. Charlottes known as a big bisiness center. Raleigh has the reasearch triangle. If you asked someone from the midwest to tell you something about sc, what would they say???

[The_sandlapper]

I wouldn't miss the state income tax at all

Charlotte definatly does like the tag of being leaders in the carolinas. I think that most people in this part of the state don't see much of a separation between NC & SC. I have known of people who do feel superior to SC, but really have nothing other than childish reasoning. Of course there are northern transplants who feel superiorto just about everyone, including people who were raised in this city.

I think what sc lacks is a national identity. Charlottes known as a big bisiness center. Raleigh has the reasearch triangle. If you asked someone from the midwest to tell you something about sc, what would they say???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probablly Myrtle Beach, Charleston, or Hilton Head, there pretty well known .

I went to college on the OH, KY, WV border they were pretty familiar with Myrtle Beach. Same for people from PA, MI, too.

[Jerseyman4]

Probablly Myrtle Beach, Charleston, or Hilton Head, there pretty well known .

I went to college on the OH, KY, WV border they were pretty familiar with Myrtle Beach. Same for people from PA, MI, too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the summer, I-77 is filled with Ohio Plates between Charlotte and Beckley, WV. More Ohio than the state you are in.

[The_sandlapper]

^Well you kinda have to take I-77 to get to Myrtle Beach from Ohio, but I guess you can take I-40 to I-95 as well?

[krazeeboi]

Well, being 4th in tourism in the nation (after Hawaii, Nevada, and Florida), I'd say that most folks would know something. As was said earlier, MB, HH, and Charleston definitely stand out. On the business side, Greenville is beginning to get a really good reputation.

[jmwspg]

I love this topic! This is something that I've always wondered about.

I worked and lived in the "Metrolina" area for awhile. I lived in Chester county and worked in the Southpark area of Charlotte. Quite a few times my co-workers would make fun of South Carolina as backwards and generally unsophisticated. Sadly, most of Chester county, SC is backwards and unsophisticated, but that's another thread. Certainly it's no worse than much of NC east of I-95.

But the interesting thing about this attitude seemed to be that the non-native Charlotteans were the worst about it. Of all the co-workers that threw this arrogant pitch, the one raised in West Virginia was the worst.

Well, he should know unsophisticated when he sees it, I guess.

For the most part, it does seem that Charlotte is in a continuous battle with Raleigh-Durham over status and funds. More than once I've heard people in both areas claiming that the other area is sucking up all the state funds for development. I'm not sure which is true. One thing is for sure, neither seems to be on the ball where traffic is concerned. I don't miss that at all.

[The_sandlapper]

It's funny that some N Carolinian would look down on SC in regards of education, I just saw an articlet where SC ranked higher than NC in % of population with a bachelors degree or higher.

[skysdalimit]

I love SC, it is a great state to be a neighbor to because of its lack of laws and great tourist attractions. And I love Charleston and Myrtle Beach!

[gvillenative]

Well one law I can tell you it doesn't lack is the Blue Law.

[Jerseyman4]

One thing to appreciate with South Carolina, it is not heavily taxed like NC is. NC i believe is the most taxed state in the south!

[krazeeboi]

Trust me Jerseyman04, I feel it every 2 weeks. LOL.

[Miesian Corners]

I grew up in SC, but moved to Greensboro in the mid-80s after college. Now I live in Charlotte. What I find amusing is that for so long, North Carolina was the state of the poor dirt farmer. So much so, there is a famous saying that "North Carolina is a valley of humility between to mountains of conceit". Virginia and South Carolina had the power and the money. Thankfully, that's no longer the case.

I think what hurts South Carolina are issues like people going into a frenzy about pulling the Confederate battle flag off the State House dome. You gotta admit it makes the State look pretty damn backward. Wrapping one's self in the flag can make one appear a little warped. Multiply that warping tenfold when that flag is not the American, but one of a nation that ceased to exist 140 years ago. You have to admit it's odd. It's not even the official flag of the Conderacy, it's the battle flag.

Education is another one. My mom taught English for 30 years in SC and laughed about the SC Department of Education's mantra, "Thank God for Mississippi!" (We were always 49th, with MS bringing up the rear). With Governor Mark Sanford's attack on public education, we can only expect things to get worse. Low taxes are great, but not at the expense of an educated population (and safe roads and bridges, and police and fire, and clean water, etc...) Putting more money in the hands of the taxpayer may do wonders for a consumer driven society, but no one thinks about the long-term effects. We put our future at risk so we can get a tax break of a lousy couple hundred a year; all so we can all go to Wal-Mart and buy something made in China.

And while SC has done a good job of pulling in jobs, it has done so at the expense of the future. According to a Clemson University study, "South Carolina has become perhaps the fiercest aggressor in the interstate jobs war that has swept the country. Its deep discounts on business taxes and its other handouts helped induce 1,395 businesses to locate or expand in the state last year, according to the state Commerce Department. The state has added 200,000 jobs, 300,000 people and 43,000 schoolchildren since 1990. But now the state finds itself an object lesson in the jobs war's peril: Having hollowed its tax base to attract corporations, South Carolina is struggling to afford the resulting boom."

Corporate handouts will end up biting us in the end. Look no further than Mack Trucks in Fairfield County on that one. Plant closed after the State gave away the farm to get them there. SC gave millions in incentives and worker training to get the facility in 1986, only to have the enitire operation shut down a mere 16 years later.

The City of Greer and Spartanburg County had to publicly humiliate BMW in order to get additional funding for police and fire after costs went out of conrol upon the opening of the plant. BMW pays no land tax to Spartanburg County. Building and equipment taxes are 43% lower than what established businesses have to pay. BMW has never paid South Carolina's 5% tax on corporate profits. Tens of millions of dollars in incentive credits will keep BMW immune to income taxes well into this century. Meanwhile, the citizens of SC will continue paying taxes. Hmmm.

BMW uses as many services as other companies. Its 4,600 employees have just as many school-age children as workers at other businesses. Its trucks wear down South Carolina's roads just as much as other companies' trucks. Thanks to the incentives war between the states, however, BMW has been able to carve its own special deal, a deal shielding it from obligations for other services that most South Carolina companies accept as the cost of doing business.

Well, this has turned into a sermon. I'll stop myself here before I go any further.

[vicupstate]

Excellent commentary and quite accurate for the most part. I do believe that BMW does pay property taxes to Spartanburg County though. It is at a reduced rate, 6% of value rather than the usual 10.5%, and is called a "Fee in lieu of Taxes" as I understand it.

Personally, I think SC has gotten itself into a difficult situation. We have built the economy on Manufacturing which is going offshore. By waiting so long to develop more advanced industries, we have fallen behing GA & NC. A trend that is likely to continue IMO.

[Spartan]

BMW's existance creates many times more non-basic jobs than its employment base. Its existance and things like the ICAR in Greenville are essential to the economy. Creating the environment for business/industry is a key part of luring them to the area. It doesn't matter how great your state is in education or in number of other businesses- if you can't come up with a good deal for the company then they are likely to pick somewhere else.

Our economy is shifting towards a manufacturing oriented one to a knowledge based one. This won't happen over night, but ICAR and the USC research campus and the technology oriented, knowledge based sector will grow tremendously as a result of this push.

With regards to education- I believe we will improve our image. Not all of our schools are bad. Our larger cities have excellent schools. The problem I see is targeting the rural schools which are usually below the curve. The PACT test was a major step in creating a standard in SC for what is acceptable education. The kids who had to take this their whole lives are just now getting into middle school I think.

I look at SC's education like this:

I went to elementary, middle and high school in Spartanburg County. I am about to graduate with a bachelor's degree from USC, and I am planning on getting a Masters degree from some undetermined place. Most of my friends are doing the same thing or better. They are from all over the state. You have people like Roger Milliken and Jerry Richardson who are from SC and are among the most successful businessmen in the nation. Now, I am not trying to compare myself to Milliken or Richardson, but if SC's system is that bad how could I accomplish what I have? And how could they have accomplished what they have?

Its real easy to point out faults. Maybe I'm too quick to defend my state. I don't know. Certainly there is alot of room for improvement, and I can't deny that. But are things really as bad as people say they are?

[Miesian Corners]

BMW's existance creates many times more non-basic jobs than its employment base. Its existance and things like the ICAR in Greenville are essential to the economy. Creating the environment for business/industry is a key part of luring them to the area. It doesn't matter how great your state is in education or in number of other businesses- if you can't come up with a good deal for the company then they are likely to pick somewhere else.

Our economy is shifting towards a manufacturing oriented one to a knowledge based one. This won't happen over night, but ICAR and the USC research campus and the technology oriented, knowledge based sector will grow tremendously as a result of this push.

With regards to education- I believe we will improve our image. Not all of our schools are bad. Our larger cities have excellent schools. The problem I see is targeting the rural schools which are usually below the curve. The PACT test was a major step in creating a standard in SC for what is acceptable education. The kids who had to take this their whole lives are just now getting into middle school I think.

I look at SC's education like this:

I went to elementary, middle and high school in Spartanburg County. I am about to graduate with a bachelor's degree from USC, and I am planning on getting a Masters degree from some undetermined place. Most of my friends are doing the same thing or better. They are from all over the state. You have people like Roger Milliken and Jerry Richardson who are from SC and are among the most successful businessmen in the nation. Now, I am not trying to compare myself to Milliken or Richardson, but if SC's system is that bad how could I accomplish what I have? And how could they have accomplished what they have?

Its real easy to point out faults. Maybe I'm too quick to defend my state. I don't know. Certainly there is alot of room for improvement, and I can't deny that. But are things really as bad as people say they are?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spartan, I'm not knocking all of SC's public schools, I too am a product of public education in the Palmetto State. I attended a SC public university as well. The reality that I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed should not be blamed on those facts.

My point is that someday soon, the dinner tab is going to come to the table. When the waiter brings back the credit card and embarassingly tells us it got declined, who gets to do the dishes in order to pay the bill. Certainly not BMW or the like. Give you one guess as to who will be in the kitchen for a long night...

[monsoon]

I love SC, it is a great state to be a neighbor to because of its lack of laws

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah while growing up in Myrtle Beach, we would always be amused by the jails being full on Monday morning from stupid tourists who thought the same thing.

[teshadoh]

Compared to other southern states, I don't see anything that differentiates SC from others. I went through the public school system in SC & though I went to college in Georgia (lowly Georgia State) I'm confidant that my education would be mostly be just as good (depending on what field of study) as the public colleges in Georgia.

But considering I studied Geography, & though UGA's program was the best in Georgia, USC's program is nearly equally respected nationally. But obviously I went to GSU, which brings up an additional point - a college degree is a college degree (in most cases).

I generally view SC as getting a bad wrap for public education, take away suburban Atlanta from Georgia - & this state has a horrific public school system (no offense to the minor cities).

[krazeeboi]

Speaking of public education in SC, I just ran across some articles with rankings in Exapansion Management magazine. I think it's worth taking a gander at.

Which Metro Areas Have The Best Public Education Systems?

[url=http://www.expansionmanagement.com/smo/articleviewer/default.asp?cmd=articledetail&articleid=16228&st=5]2004 Education Quotient

[The_sandlapper]

SC is always overlooked. I'm glad to see that Columbia made the top ten. I guess there is a reason Richland County is one of the top educated counties in the nation, that's awesome! It looks like Columbia may be following the same mold RDU and Austin took, I see big things in the midlands future!

[UrbanSoutherner]

I grew up in SC, but moved to Greensboro in the mid-80s after college. Now I live in Charlotte. What I find amusing is that for so long, North Carolina was the state of the poor dirt farmer. So much so, there is a famous saying that "North Carolina is a valley of humility between to mountains of conceit". Virginia and South Carolina had the power and the money. Thankfully, that's no longer the case.

I think what hurts South Carolina are issues like people going into a frenzy about pulling the Confederate battle flag off the State House dome.

[Miesian Corners]

Hey Urban, good points on all fronts.

I thought your flag comment was interesting too. I would agree that it hurts the state's image. But I also find it interesting that Georgia's equally embarrassing flag dispute certainly may have hurt Georgia's image national, but it did not seem to hurt Atlanta. At least it did not stem the flood of companies and people and events to the metro area. So, I am not sure how much the flag dispute would have hurt SC if it really had the right stuff going on economically in other areas.

I agree. I guess I am simply more familiar with SC. The Geogia debacle is (I think) just as embarrassing. The battle flag of the Confederacy has no business flying over any state capital. Period. I'm a born and bred Southerner and am proud of that fact, but the whole "heritage, not hate" arguement is tired. Honoring the past is great, living in it is moronic.

I am curiously if you think folks in other parts of the country held NC in somewhat less esteem because it elected Jesse Helms to the Senate for so long. Personally, I was somewhat embarrassed by Strom Thurmond having grown up in SC and all, but I always preferred him in a heartbeat to Helms. At least Thurmond seemed to have left some of his more questionable issues behind him long ago as part of his past. The historian William Chafe wrote a book about the civil rights movement in Greensboro called "Civilities and Civil Rights." He has a rather interesting discussion of NC and what he calls the "progressive mystique." Basically, he argues that the state made some early investments in good education (both public schools with Governor Aycock and UNC-Chapel Hill) that paid off and greatly enhanced its image as being more progressive than your average southern state. But Chafe argues, scratch beneath that surface (today that surface would include Charlotte's banking powerhouse and the Triangle's education and technology clusters) and you find a lot more of the standard southern issues than NC would want to admit. Anyway, it was a interesting take.

Embarrassed? Hell yes. I had a bumper sticker on my car that read "I'm from NC and I don't support Jesse Helms". I'm not sure that our current elected officials are any better (although they're not as "loud" as Strom or Jesse, thankfully), but I'm glad they're no longer representatives of my birthplace or my current home.

I've not seen the book you write of. I'll have to get a copy. Looks to be an interesting read. Is the writer trying to say we're still racists if you look below the surface? Or is he saying we don't think as progressively as we choose to appear to the outside world? If racism is the case, I think he'd be wrong. I've lived in California, New York, and Pennsylvania. I heard more racial epithets living OUTSIDE the South than I ever heard here at home. I've also not seen cities as segregated as those OUTSIDE the South. I know here in Charlotte, people live where they can afford, not because of skin tone.

[UrbanSoutherner]

Hey Urban, good points on all fronts.