Charlotte VS Jacksonville VS Nashville

[monsoon]

Actually I consider SE Charlotte to be a suburban wasteland and one of the negatives of the city.

[Spartan]

Perhaps, but the newness of the area makes it look clean and nice, which many people might find attractive. I like to look at it, though I doubt I would acutally live in it.

[derrickskugler]

Not everyone hates suburbia. I do wish that suburbia would incorporate more "smart growth" proposals in with the new development, though. That's my biggest complaint with the way Atlanta (where I currently live) has grown. It's a beautiful city... no sane individual can deny that... but without some way to relieve the traffic congestion that now plagues the "big 3" to the north of the city, eventually, the area will begin to wear thin on it's residents.

That being said, I think that Jacksonville has alot going for it with the rapid transit proposals that they have thrown out there. The citizens of that town just need to get off their butts and approve the plan when it comes to a vote. I remember when I was 10 years old growing up in Jax I was driving down the Arlington Expressway and said, "mom, wouldn't it be cool if they put a train right down the middle of the road!?" Maybe I was ahead of my time? :->

I do not know enough about Charlotte's or Nashville's proposals to intelligently comment on them, however.

[bobliocatt]

Spartanburg has the Shrine Bowl. They play it over at Wofford College... What does that mean? Yeah its  a bowl game, and yeah it brings some tourist dollars and visitors to the city. Spartanburg probably makes more money during the Panthers' training camp. I'm not saying that spots are irrelevant, but that they just don't 'make' a city.

It seems  rather naive to  judge a city based on what you can see from the interstate. Southside Charlotte is alot like the eastern part of Jax. From DT to the beaches is all the same style and quality of development you woudl see in southside Charlotte.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All of Jax's significant urban neighborhoods, other than Springfield, run along the St. Johns River, south of I-95. Other than seeing the Skyline of Riverside, from the Fuller Warren Bridge (I-95 over St. Johns River), you can't seeing any of these places from the interstates. These large historic neighborhoods, along with the beach, is what sets Jax apart from the other two, imo. The Southside is pretty much suburban sprawl you can find anywhere.

[Spartan]

That being said, I think that Jacksonville has alot going for it with the rapid transit proposals that they have thrown out there.  The citizens of that town just need to get off their butts and approve the plan when it comes to a vote.

I do not know enough about Charlotte's or Nashville's proposals to intelligently comment on them, however.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The main difference between Nashville/Charlotte and Jax is that the first two are building their rapid transit systems already, while Jax's is still in the plannign stages as far as I know.

I agree that Jax has alot of potential for growth with its transit system in place. I know that I would be more likely to go downtown from the beach if I could ride a BRT line. I hope that Jax can get it worked out, because that city has alot of potential and a bright future.

[bobliocatt]

The main difference between Nashville/Charlotte and Jax is that the first two are building their rapid transit systems already, while Jax's is still in the plannign stages as far as I know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Although a little less than 3 miles, Jax already has the Skyway monorail system servicing downtown. Ridership is up and its currently attracting several TOD's (ex. Riverpointe, The Peninsula, etc.) near its stations.

JTA is also currently spending $100 million to purchase right-of-way for a future light rail system, as we speak. However, due to the high costs, JTA has elected to use the right-of-way as electronic BRT first. The first phase of the 29 mile system will be operational by 2009 and the second phase, two years later.

In addition, plans are underway for a $127 million transportation center, with a hotel & retail space, in downtown that would unite Amtrak, Greyhound, JTA buses, the Skyway & BRT. When will Charlotte's light rail line be completed and what is Nashville planning?

[Spartan]

I know the first line of Charlotte's LRT us U/C now and will be opened in the next couple of years. Maybe one of the Charlotte people can go into more detail on that.

Nashville has some fairly extensive plans, but I don't know anough about it to comment.

[showtime21]

that is one beautiful building l must admit. I am a big fan of the jacksonville area. We are getting bigger and better...

[monsoon]

Charlotte already has a 2.5 mile long electric rail trolley system that has been operational for the last 6 months. My guess is its ridership already exceeds the people mover in Jacksonville. It serves the downtown area and adjoining downtown area. As mentioned above there is also a 10.5 mile light rail system under construction that should be operational 1Q07.

The Charlotte Trolley has alread spurred much TOD. (close to a $billion).

Here is a photo of the Charlotte Trolley going past the new downtown Children's museum (just past the new NBA Arena).

As far as the light rail system goes, here is a rendering of the trainset that will be used in Charlotte. There are 16 trainsets on order from Siemens which will be built in a plant in California.

[bobliocatt]

The skyway has spurred about a billion dollars worth of TOD, as well. This includes 10 towers of 22 stories or more and a Publix retail center that's planned or under construction, within a block of its stations on the Southbank. Naturally, ridership is up big time. There are long range plans to expand it to the new entertainment district, the Shipyards and the Sports District and along Riverside Avenue to the headquarters of Blue Cross Blue Shield & Fidelity National Financial. Unfortunately the city isn't in any rush to start construction.

What are the trolley's ridership numbers? Is it used heavily be locals, or is it more a tourist train, like Tampa's trolley? I assume the 10 mile light rail line, like Houston's, is only a starter line. How large will the finished system be and how long will it take for it to be completed?

[AnEverydayJo]

I love Charlotte, I visit it frequently. I've been to all three cities and I think Charlotte will come out on top. Besides the terrible highway intersection at 77/85, the only other negitive thing I can say about Charlotte is the air quality, among the worst in the nation....if things don't improve, doesn't it risk losing Federal funding?

[rocket9561]

Nashville's mass trasit option is commuter rail. The system, under construction now but already tested with commuters, will run from downtown Nashville to the seats of its bordering counties with the exception of the mostly rural Robertson County. The main station will be downtown but stops will be made throughout Nashville and the surrounding areas.

[monsoon]

The skyway has spurred about a billion dollars worth of TOD, as well.  This includes 10 towers of 22 stories or more and a Publix retail center that's planned or under construction, within a block of its stations on the Southbank.  Naturally, ridership is up big time.  There are long range plans to expand it to the new entertainment district, the Shipyards and the Sports District and along Riverside Avenue to the headquarters of Blue Cross Blue Shield & Fidelity National Financial.  Unfortunately the city isn't in any rush to start construction. 

What are the trolley's ridership numbers?  Is it used heavily be locals, or is it more a tourist train, like Tampa's trolley?  I assume the 10 mile light rail line, like Houston's, is only a starter line.  How large will the finished system be and how long will it take for it to be completed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The interesting thing about Charlotte's trolley is that it was built with no Federal & State funding. It is a completely local project and until recently was operated independantly from the metro transit system, CATS. CATS recently took over operation of the Trolley however.

Charlotte's 2025 transit plan calls for 5 transportation corridors in which the South LRT is the first. It will be followed by the North Commuter Rail Line, and 3 more LRT's. In addition the city is planning to build a circle line street car system in the downtown area, and another street car line will be bisect the down town area and travel out to one of the regional mallsl. If SC and Union county want to participate and pay for their part, additional commuter rail lines may be built to Rock Hill, SC and Monroe NC. Its expected the entire system will cost $6 Billion and will be completed by 2025.

In addition a new multimodal transit station is planned by the state that will link together the Light Rail, Commuter Rail, Amtrak, the NC RailRoad (NC operates a passenger rail system) and the SE High Speed Rail system that will link Charlotte to DC.

Another interesting thing about the trolley and the LRT are that the tracks actually pass through several buildings. There are stations in the Weston and the Convention Center.

Within the CBD there will be 3 primary LRT stations. The 7th Street Station, The CTC (Charlotte Transit Center), and the 3rd Street Station. Plust there will be a platform at 6th street.

Here you can see the location of the 3 stations, and the effect they will have on the surrounding area.

The 3rd Street Station is located within the Hilton Hotel.

The CTC station will be the most interesting as it will be connected to the Charlotte Transit Center and will also serve the new NBA Arena.

There will be a platform located at 6th street. I am not sure if there will be a stop here, but here is a rendering showing what it will look like. I really like the design for the catenary supports.

Finally the northern most station will be the one at 7th Street. It will be in the area next to the Parking garage containing Reeds Grocery store.

This is a photo showing where the 7th street station will be located in front of Reeds. It should be noted the Trolley, which will also use the rails, will continue on to its northern terminus at 9th street. This route will continue on to the NE when the Universitly Line is constructed later in the decade.

[bobliocatt]

^Impressive indeed. Hopefully the transit systems will quickly spur development away from Tyron St to help Uptown become more urban. Where is Charlotte's urban entertainment districts? How's the nightlife scene in Uptown?

[JunktionFET]

Charlotte's 2025 transit plan calls for 5 transportation corridors in which the South LRT is the first.  It will be followed by the North Commuter Rail Line, and 3 more LRT's.  In addition the city is planning to build a circle line street car system in the downtown area, and another street car line will be bisect the down town area and travel out to one of the regional mallsl.  If SC and Union county want to participate and pay for their part, additional commuter rail lines may be built to Rock Hill, SC and Monroe NC.  Its expected the entire system will cost $6 Billion and will be completed by 2025. 

In addition a new multimodal transit station is planned by the state that will link together the Light Rail, Commuter Rail, Amtrak, the NC RailRoad (NC operates a passenger rail system) and the SE High Speed Rail system that will link Charlotte to DC.

This is a conceptual map showing the Commuter Rail corridors that the NCDOT studied a few years ago and that could see implementation as required for a very reasonable sum of money. Note that all of them parallel the planned LRT, BRT, and Streetcar options presented in the CATS 2025 plan inside the city limits. The north line depicted here is an extension of the CATS plan--terminating in Statesville instead of Mooresville.

There was another map that actually overlayed this Commuter Rail concept on top of the planned CATS corridors, but I can't find it and I wish I could. Still searching...

[bobliocatt]

Why would they run parallel to other planned transit lines? That sounds like a waste.

[showtime21]

Great pics monsoon, I believe Charlotte transit is a step above Nashville and Jax. I also believe when the new light rail is done. It will be a step above Atlanta Marta system...

[JunktionFET]

Why would they run parallel to other planned transit lines?  That sounds like a waste.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They are express routes to uptown from the outer suburbs. The map I can't find showed one or maybe two transfer stations enroute, then the rest of it was a straight shot in. It makes sense really considering that these trains would only run during work hours with a ~30 minute frequency. It would help get people outside of Mecklenburg County off the highways and in a position where they can use the intra-city transit system or just zip right into the core.

[brewerw]

I dont know about a step ahead but it will be alot nicer than Atl's MARTA

[monsoon]

This plan has been replaced by the 2025 plan and probably won't happen in this form. The North line for example would go to (about 2/3rds of the line to Statesville) Mooresville and might eventualy be extended to Statesville.

The Rock Hill Commuter rail line would not go to downtown charlotte. Instead it would connect to the Southern terminus of the South LRT. Riders would have to change trains. Requires SCDOT funding.

Likewise the Monroe Commuter Rail line would connect to the SE LRT if it is built. Again people would have to change trains.

I dont think the Albemarle & Gastonia lines will ever happen.

It should be noted there is already twice daily passenger train service to Kannaoplis & Salisbury via the NC Railroad. Its not sufficient for commuting, but could possibly be expanded in the future.

[JunktionFET]

I dont think the Albemarle & Gastonia lines will ever happen. 

Hahahaha!! Well you know ol Albemarle about to roll up on some Charlotte, Watch out!

I agree that the Albemarle route especially is a long shot, even the study words it as such. The Gastonia line I might see happening, though it would be decades away.

I do think that a Commuter Line from Concord/Kannapolis and perhaps Salisbury would prove popular in the not-so-distant future.

[bobliocatt]

Great pics monsoon, I believe Charlotte transit is a step above Nashville and Jax. I also believe when the new light rail is done. It will be a step above Atlanta Marta system...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While all three are doing a good job of establishing mass transit, Charlotte's plans are better than the other two cities. When completely built out, Charlotte's mass transit will be ahead of Tampa & Orlando, on par with Houston, but still behind Atlanta, DC, Dallas & Miami, three of which, have heavy rail systems.

[monsoon]

While all three are doing a good job of establishing mass transit, Charlotte's plans are better than the other two cities.  When completely built out, Charlotte's mass transit will be ahead of Tampa & Orlando, on par with Houston, but still behind Atlanta, DC, Dallas & Miami, three of which, have heavy rail systems.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Dallas system is light rail and very successful. I think they should have gone with heavy rail.

Agreed about Miami & DC

Marta in Atlanta is a big disappointment. It is not being kept up, its infrastructure looks bad, and there are absolutely no plans to expand it. It does not serve the vast majority of the metro and commuters can't use it. No funding source either. Its like they built it in the 70s & 80s, then said, Nevermind.

[atlrvr]

The saddest thing IMO about MARTA in Atlanta is the investment made by BellSouth, and how it has totally been an isolated investment by one company. I thought they were going to start a trend, and many MARTA stops would become major employment centers with limited parking......even the city seems to ignore what they have done.....

[eastsider]

The Dallas system is light rail and very successful.  I think they should have gone with heavy rail. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dallas does have one heavy rail line. The Trinity Railway Express connects dt Ft Worth to dt Dallas at union station where it meets up with the lrt's, amtrack, and greyhound. I think it is an excellent system and is a great example of what Charlotte's future mass transit could look like. The best part about dart is you can ride all day for only $2.50.