Triangle road & traffic thread

[orulz]

Two things about this growth that you might want to consider.

1. Raleigh has annexed a ton of new land.

2. Most/all of this growth has been consentrated way outside the downtown area. Most of the city of Raleigh looks like other big cities suburbs/exurbs. There are still parts of the city of Raleigh that have rural tracks of land. You won't usually find that in other comparable sized cities.

Similar situations absolutely do exist elsewhere in the country. Just happens that Virginia and DC are areas where this doesn't happen. That's why it's difficult to use city populations as criterion for comparing growth.

However, local/state laws regulating annexation have nothing to do with the MSA population. Standards for determining the population of an MSA are uniform no matter where you are, so it is possible to compare the population of any MSA with that of any other MSA.

[ChiefJoJo]

Plus, you could include true suburbs such as Cary, Apex, Fuquay, etc. in those that have grown a lot as well--it's not just Raleigh proper that has grown through annexation.

I think over the coming years, Raleigh will grown inwards through infill development.

[NoVA20176]

Similar situations absolutely do exist elsewhere in the country. Just happens that Virginia and DC are areas where this doesn't happen. That's why it's difficult to use city populations as criterion for comparing growth.

However, local/state laws regulating annexation have nothing to do with the MSA population. Standards for determining the population of an MSA are uniform no matter where you are, so it is possible to compare the population of any MSA with that of any other MSA.

Orulz I didn't say that those situations don't exist (I'm sure they do someplaces), just that I have not seen them before in other cities with Raleigh's population and even in smaller cities. Most areas with rural tracks of land are not located in the cities, because they would have already been developed. I do believe however that Raleigh has annexed way too much land (maybe that will turn out to be a good thing?). I've been to Raleigh several times in the last year and I've never felt like I was in a city, but rather more like suburbs. Don't get me wrong, that's what is attracting me to want to relocate there. I happen to want to live close to a cities downtown area (10-15 miles) and still have a nice suburb/exurb feel.

I've visited many housing developments in Raleigh recently (when my wife and I were looking for homes) and was actually shocked when I found out they all were within the city limits. I told my real estate agent "this is the city"? Look, not like there is anything wrong with that and I'm glad that I can get city services and still live in an area that looks like bigger cities exurbs, but it just seems odd to me that some parts of raleigh seem very exurb/rural. Even a lot of areas within the beltline look very suburban to me.

I don't know. Maybe living outside of NYC and Washington D.C all these years has blinded me. My posts are not an attempt to make anyone mad or flame, they are just my opinion.

[urbanvb]

I think your last statement is correct as the DC area (even some of the suburbs) is very built up and has a dense feel to it where as Raleigh has grown outwardly instead of inward (unlike most northern cities).

[Eastwestrob]

I have heard elsewhere that Raleigh has not annexed for a while now. What is the total square mile now?

[waynehead]

according to wikipedia 115 sq miles which is about 300 km. To put that in context all of wake county is 850 sq miles or 2200 km, so Raleigh proper may not be as big as some of you are thinking.

[jaxpalmer]

it can only get worse...

[urbanesq]

according to wikipedia 115 sq miles which is about 300 km. To put that in context all of wake county is 850 sq miles or 2200 km, so Raleigh proper may not be as big as some of you are thinking.

True; plus there are something like 13 local governments in Wake County, all of which have their own land use goals and rules of engagement. While it's nice that each community has its on identity, I think the lack of coordination and regional accountability makes for sloppy urban form.

Of course, it's also true that people from other parts of the world often say "Raleigh" as shorthand for the research triangle region.

[ncwebguy]

Driving from downtown to Brier Creek or the Durant Road (or even Wakefield!) areas and

realzie you're *still* in Raleigh is unheard of north of the Mason/Dixon line, except maybe the really large cities like Boston and Philly.

But starting at Richmond and heading south, cities like Raleigh, Charlotte, Atlanta, Jacksonville, etc. are the "norm" for what a "big city" is. Northern cities were developed before the automobile age, so density was required, not just a good idea. Southern cities wanted to sepearte home from work from shopping from entertaining, and it had the raw land, so why not?

Decades ago, there were a lot of small grocery stores in downtowns and CBDs. The building the Rialto is in now was a grocery, and the five points Piggly Wiggly was still a grocery till a few years ago when NOFO moved in. Jimmys City Market (which now seems to be used as a church on sundays) was at the corner of Martin and Wilmington till a few years ago. These stores were bypassed for the supermarkets that offer a lot more selection, but use up a lot more space.

There were rumors that a downtown harris teeter like the one in charlotte could open downtown *if* all condo projects on the board now, plus a few are built and fill up...

Work is going on at Seabord Station, but i don't know if they've announced the anchor tenant there yet.

[JunktionFET]

1. Raleigh has annexed a ton of new land.

Really? I remember a news story like 3 years ago or something where Raleigh was considering annexing a small area bordering the city limits of around 5000 people, but that's the largest I knew of. Have more annexations taken place since then?

After talking with some people a while back, I was under the impression that Raleigh has more or less become land locked by the surrounding towns in Wake County as well as the Falls Lake watershed, and that any future annexation would consist of small land areas and small numbers of people, primarily northeast and southeast of the city.

I remember reading an article or something where the author claimed one day Raleigh would span the width of Wake County, but that just isn't possible unless it were to consume land under the jurisdiction of other towns.

I believe some of you might be confused with Charlotte--that city has, what, 280 square miles now? That's probably double what it was 20 years ago, and they've consumed most of central and southern Mecklenburg County (at 526 square miles). This isn't necessarily a bad thing--it ensures that much of the county will have a consistent feel and style since it is all governed by the same body.

[NoVA20176]

I believe some of you might be confused with Charlotte--that city has, what, 280 square miles now? That's probably double what it was 20 years ago, and they've consumed most of central and southern Mecklenburg County (at 526 square miles). This isn't necessarily a bad thing--it ensures that much of the county will have a consistent feel and style since it is all governed by the same body.

Isn't that what a county board of supervisors is for? Why does everything need to be in the city?

I'm just trying to learn, since I'll be a new resident of NC in the near future and VA does not do things like NC does.

[JunktionFET]

The city has to work with the minimum specifications set by the county I believe. The city will either meet or usually exceed those guidelines.

[dmccall]

I'm still stuck in traffic from that massive 3/8" of snow we got. Thank goodness for wireless internet.

[JunktionFET]

Technically it was 0.7 inches (between 0.5 and 1.0)... but still, that's no excuse for the traffic melee. I still can't get over the pile of cars stacked sideways at the bottom of the hill on Glenwood. If you guys remember, the temperature stayed below freezing for several days beforehand--the warmest daytime high was 28 degrees. And since there was no treatment on the road surfaces, the superfine powder snow turned the streets into an ice skating rink, thanks to the Zamboni effect from all the cars.

Link to January 19, 2005

[JunktionFET]

Maybe this winter will bring one of these:

Or better yet, one of these... remember this one?

[MR-2]

I remember those. That was some good snow. NC seems to have a cycle, where in every 7 years there are a couple good snow years, a couple medium ones, and a few mild/snowless winters.

[waynehead]

Boy howdy that 2000 snow was fun. Here's hoping we get some snow this year, just not of the crippling variety.

[NCMike1981]

I wasn't living in the Triangle during either of those snow events

[urbanesq]

best snow ever was in 1987 (I lived in the Triad at the time). It snowed 2 feet, then a week later, before the first one had time to go away, it snowed 2 more feet. We were out of school for two solid weeks.

[MR-2]

Just out of curiosity, how much more snow do the mountains get per year than the Triangle area? Is it just a gradual dusting throughout the year that accumulates, or are there big storms?

[JunktionFET]

The highest elevations tend to maintain a base of snow that can remain throughout the winter if there is enough precipitation. Some years are drier than others and the ski resorts have to use their snow machines. Otherwise western NC just gets more snowfall in general, but the valleys and lower elevation areas generally don't see a steady snowpack.

For comparison, I believe last month parts of western NC got their first snowfall of the season--before Halloween. Around here it is considered very unusual to see an accumulating snowfall before thanksgiving. This particular storm was a rare treat, who else remembers it:

Here is average annual snowfall for the state:

And probability for a storm totaling more than 8 inches:

[urbanesq]

The city has to work with the minimum specifications set by the county I believe. The city will either meet or usually exceed those guidelines.

With one or two exceptions, cities and counties in North Carolina are separate political entities. A county governs only that land located outside of municipal boundaries. The city of Durham and it's County government merged some years ago, so that's an exception, but by and large cities set their own standards for development within their borders and the county has no voice. In an area like ours with so many different commuinities, little state-level oversight and no regional governance, it makes a perfect context for a race to the bottom and the resulting sprawl.

[yfreemark]

City and County of Durham never merged - there's been a lot of talk of it in the past, but it never happened. The planning departments of the two entities did, however.

[urbanesq]

City and County of Durham never merged - there's been a lot of talk of it in the past, but it never happened. The planning departments of the two entities did, however.

an important clarification; thank you.

[Tayfromcarolina]

Most new annexations are taking place as new areas are built in the City of Raleigh. Like in North Raleigh past Triangle towne center on Capital Blvd. or Falls of Neuse Rd. and even in East Raleigh near Rock Quarry Rd. As soon as a new housing development subdivison or Townhomes are built (or being built) they are automatically annexed. That's why the population is growing like crazy. If it's country today and a house is built on it tomorrow it is sucked up instantly.

I havent heard of any large scale annexing or established areas in a while.