Triangle road & traffic thread

[danclever]

funny how comparable the prices for HOV lanes and TTA rail are...wonder how the impacts compare...I imagine pretty similar per dollar also.....funny how some folks are all about HOV lanes but hate commuter rail....

HOV lanes along a 27 mile stretch of I-40, using a mixture of styles (hybrid), would cost around $1.2 Billion if built between 2008-2012 (page 13 in document).

http://www.ncdot.org/hov/pdf/HybridReportII.pdf

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't include the cost of HOV or commuter spurs off of I-40. If you want to use the HOV lanes for BRT, that doesn't include money for stations or buses.

I hear more and more people saying we should scrap the regional rail in favor of Chapel Hill to Raleigh HOV lanes. It'll cost a ton more money, won't be as effective, and will take years before it's built. The rail system is ready to go now, and the $800 Million includes the stations, rail cars. What am I missing here?

[sax184]

I hear more and more people saying we should scrap the regional rail in favor of Chapel Hill to Raleigh HOV lanes. It'll cost a ton more money, won't be as effective, and will take years before it's built. The rail system is ready to go now, and the $800 Million includes the stations, rail cars. What am I missing here?

No shared vision for the region on transportation, and lame political and business leadership.

[mattm]

In short, they're advocating "analysis paralysis" without saying it outright. "We don't like the current project; let's substitute another project instead." Later when that project starts to get ready to build do the same thing again. Meanwhile the status quo is protected.

If I remember right the original Triangle Fixed Guideway Study completed waaaay back in 1992 examined buses running on HOV lanes on I-40, compared to light rail and regional rail, and found it to have the lowest ridership of the three alternatives. That study is what kicked off the regional rail project to start with. Is it online anywhere, transitman?

I do agree that our leadership is lame on this subject. It seems that every time we try to get together on a regional transportation project things degenerate into factionalism. We can't even pull off a transit merger, though we're on our second try! At least the agencies cooperate at a level below the political level...

[Transplant]

The DOT should have put in the HOV lanes when it had the highway underconstruction last year. Seems logic doesn't play into these decisions sometimes.

[pack-man]

The DOT should have put in the HOV lanes when it had the highway underconstruction last year. Seems logic doesn't play into these decisions sometimes.

Exactly, but they didn't because they are so behind. That widening was suppose to take place 15 years ago. This shows what kind of a schedule the NCDOT is running on. We won't HOV lanes (if ever) for 25+ years. That is very sad if this is going to be this areas alternative to light rail. If I were considering moving to this area, I would strongly consider these situations 5 - 10 years down the road. This is going to be a MAJOR thing to consider with this area, and really might end up hurting it in the future.

[ChiefJoJo]

The DOT should have put in the HOV lanes when it had the highway underconstruction last year. Seems logic doesn't play into these decisions sometimes.

PLEASE READ:

I won't defend DOT for a lot of things but I have to take some offense here. The I-40 project was a relative quick fix, yes, but it's all that the state can afford to do at this point--trust me on that. Overall, there are just not enough transportation dollars to go around for a growing state like NC, and that's a fact. DOT may not be the most efficient organization (no doubt about that), but the money just isn't there. It's like trying to feed a family on minimum wage, everyone's got to tighten there boot straps.

There is a major push to roll back the gas tax 3 cents per gallon (it's an automatic increase that took effect Jan 1, based on the average wholesale gas price, which is higher, therefore the tax/gal is higher, but not the tax rate--that's the same). This is a case of the politicians trying to score some quick political points at the expense of voters who don't know any better. Opponents will say NC has one of the highest gas taxes in the SE, which is true. But, they also won't tell you that NC has the second largest state highway system in the nation (TX is #1) to maintain. If you consider that compared to other states, most of whom have county systems with there own tax structures (often property taxes or other means) to lessen the state burden, NC is actually 47th in the nation in gas tax revenue based on the relative size of the system it must maintain. Don't be fooled, we need every penny of that tax money plus a lot more.

In my job, we talk about this all the time--the lack of funding statewide--and it's a no win situation. There's just not enough money to build and maintain what we need, while keeping up with drivers who commute often twice as far as they did just 10-15 years ago (high VMT=vehicle miles traveled, due to sprawl), and, oh by the way, the price of construction materials is up 20-30% in the last 2 years alone. There's not enough money, but the politicians don't have the will to make the tough choices on taxes or other revenue streams. NC is moving down the road on tolls, which is good, and Charlotte has the 1/2 cent transit tax, which is great. But we need to generate MUCH more revenue just to have any chance to keep up with our current and future needs. I'm not talking about desired projects--I mean just catching up to demand. There are talks of public-private partnerships, VMT taxes, higher impact fees, etc., but talk will not do it. Our state and local leaders need to have the balls to make tough decisions and take action or we will be in deep trouble in 10 years. There is no way our metro areas can keep up with this kind of growth under the current transportation funding structure.

I'll be more than happy to address any questions of comments you all have about this. I guess it struck a nerve with me, and I had to set the record straight. Ahhh, I feel better now...

[Transplant]

The fact that the money wasn't there, or anywhere, doesn't take away from the fact that the project Should have been done last year.

Yes, NC has a real problem with funding. This can been seen daily on the local news....(schools are underfunded, highways underfunded, politicos want to cut gas tax, politicos may need to hike property tax, etc, etc.). As for the roads, I can agree that raising the gas tax has to be done. Raising it 10cents a gallon, would be a HUGE increase, but would raise how many millions? I think i heard that every penny is worth $10 million a month, I'm sure this is incorrect. But a 10cent/gallon tax would cost most of us a Dollar a week. I think thats reasonable, since many of us will gladly spend $5 for a coffee, every day.

Also, Toll Roads could be good, but limiting them to new highways is a mistake. Lets toll up I-95. When i went up north for the holidays, it cost me $20 in tolls alone. I think the South has been giving a free ride for too long. i'm not saying we put multiple toll booths in, just one or two, maybe at each state border, and charge $5.

The state could have saved millions if it had done both projects at the same time. The fact that it did not have the money..... thats a different problem.

[sax184]

PLEASE READ:

I won't defend DOT for a lot of things but I have to take some offense here. The I-40 project was a relative quick fix, yes, but it's all that the state can afford to do at this point--trust me on that. Overall, there are just not enough transportation dollars to go around for a growing state like NC, and that's a fact. DOT may not be the most efficient organization (no doubt about that), but the money just isn't there. It's like trying to feed a family on minimum wage, everyone's got to tighten there boot straps.

There is a major push to roll back the gas tax 3 cents per gallon (it's an automatic increase that took effect Jan 1, based on the average wholesale gas price, which is higher, therefore the tax/gal is higher, but not the tax rate--that's the same). This is a case of the politicians trying to score some quick political points at the expense of voters who don't know any better.

The yokelization of the GOP is a very bad thing for good governance. CHiefJoJo is right. While I have a lot of problems with NCDOT, I don't want to take their money away so we have infrastructure that looks like Alabama.

Taxes are the dues we pay to live in a civilized society. The politicians advocated the gas tax repeal are mostly the rural conservatives. Maybe we should give them what they ask for, and roll the gas tax down as long as the urban legislators simultaneously enable a host of local options for the metro areas. Then they can have their lower taxes and crappy roads and the areas of the state that actually generate most of the tax revenue (the urban areas) can get on with building the infrastructure they need rather than subsidizing roads like the 4-lane freeway being built between Wilson and Goldsboro that will only carry 12,000 cars per DAY.

[thewhister]

The fact that the money wasn't there, or anywhere, doesn't take away from the fact that the project Should have been done last year.

Yes, NC has a real problem with funding. This can been seen daily on the local news....(schools are underfunded, highways underfunded, politicos want to cut gas tax, politicos may need to hike property tax, etc, etc.). As for the roads, I can agree that raising the gas tax has to be done. Raising it 10cents a gallon, would be a HUGE increase, but would raise how many millions? I think i heard that every penny is worth $10 million a month, I'm sure this is incorrect. But a 10cent/gallon tax would cost most of us a Dollar a week. I think thats reasonable, since many of us will gladly spend $5 for a coffee, every day.

Also, Toll Roads could be good, but limiting them to new highways is a mistake. Lets toll up I-95. When i went up north for the holidays, it cost me $20 in tolls alone. I think the South has been giving a free ride for too long. i'm not saying we put multiple toll booths in, just one or two, maybe at each state border, and charge $5.

The state could have saved millions if it had done both projects at the same time. The fact that it did not have the money..... thats a different problem.

It is sad that politics can make a mess of things and all this hyping of suspending the 2.8 cents is minimal when we fill up. Seems like we need a local sales tax option for our region. 10 cents is a good start and maybe that shold be a dedicated source for transit? The sadest thing is that the General Assembly would have to grant this authority to the Local Goverments, TTA, Triangle J Council?

Also strange that our political leadership is divided at all levels. Local goverments are willing to work, but at county level does not think in the same way...was there not an article about our state leadership saying we shold back out of this regional rail idea?

Really in our area we need to think regoinally. Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill are all distinct in their own ways but we are dependent upon each area of the region.

Also the note on the tolls....the tolls heading towards the Northeast were toll roads to begin with before the establishment of the Interstate system. I cringed when I drove up to NY to see relatives and it costs me $20 or so each way.....and the traffic. First time driving up and it was my last time (DC and NJ traffic sucks!) We really need to have alternatives to driving.....(ah hem.....rail)

I don't know if anyone has seen this link for Wake County's Transportation Plan:

http://www.wakegov.com/planning/transportplans/default.htm

[mattm]

Interesting link. They do say that they address alternative modes, but they also tend to refer to the document as the "thoroughfare atlas". They also talk about nothing but roads for the first 15 pages (of a 33 page document).

Sigh.

I'll read the rest after lunch and maybe have more to say then.

[Jones_]

The fact that the money wasn't there, or anywhere, doesn't take away from the fact that the project Should have been done last year.

Yes, NC has a real problem with funding. This can been seen daily on the local news....(schools are underfunded, highways underfunded, politicos want to cut gas tax, politicos may need to hike property tax, etc, etc.). As for the roads, I can agree that raising the gas tax has to be done. Raising it 10cents a gallon, would be a HUGE increase, but would raise how many millions? I think i heard that every penny is worth $10 million a month, I'm sure this is incorrect. But a 10cent/gallon tax would cost most of us a Dollar a week. I think thats reasonable, since many of us will gladly spend $5 for a coffee, every day.

Also, Toll Roads could be good, but limiting them to new highways is a mistake. Lets toll up I-95. When i went up north for the holidays, it cost me $20 in tolls alone. I think the South has been giving a free ride for too long. i'm not saying we put multiple toll booths in, just one or two, maybe at each state border, and charge $5.

The state could have saved millions if it had done both projects at the same time. The fact that it did not have the money..... thats a different problem.

$10,000,000 is about right at $1 a week per driver, $4 a month per driver, NC has a population of roughly 12 million, so 2.5 million drivers (not a stretch) times $4 gets you the $10 million a month.

[pack-man]

Did everyone forget about the embezzling that came out a month ago. where all our DOT tax dollars were going. Weird stuff??

"Forget replacing that bridge or widening that highway, I need a new house on the coast" - nc politician

[Hotlanta]

$10,000,000 is about right at $1 a week per driver, $4 a month per driver, NC has a population of roughly 12 million, so 2.5 million drivers (not a stretch) times $4 gets you the $10 million a month.

our state population is about 8,500,000 I believe, but I may be wrong

[Eastwestrob]

our state population is about 8,500,000 I believe, but I may be wrong

You are correct....Although I think that it may be pushing 9M now.The 12M figure is estimated for 2030

[Subway Scoundrel]

Lack of retail or residential near the RTP is going to make mass transit difficult even if they do build it. Where do you go for lunch? If you can't walk and the train ride isn't resonable for most peoples lunch times (schedule and/or distance of stops), people still won't ride it.

I am not sure lunch is really an issue. Many of the campus facilities have several cafe's/restaurants. Not to mention, the "bring your lunch crowd." Being, many of the campuses are tech places, lunch is quick bite at your desk before your next phone call. Plus, some people will still drive. Ride with them. If people do go to lunch, they go on Friday and maybe that is "drive day." It seems like in today's corp world, you have to plan a true lunch like you would a vacation.

I could be wrong but I live this life and everyone I know either eats at the campus cafe or at their desk (bring it or buy it at the cafe and back to the desk to work.) It is about schedule and time.

[Jerseyman4]

More on the article from WRAL

Five years may be a while but look at many cities, they dont even bother with this idea! I hope this also includes new LED traffic signals and perhaps decrease the amount of LEFT TURN SIGNALS as possible.

[pack-man]

This is some pretty nice technology. I'm glad Raleigh is going to do this finally. Upgrading signals in cities like Raleigh (sprawl cities) is mandatory since commuting is so important for so many people. Efficiency is the key word here. However, sometimes these upgrades just prolong the fact that some roads need to be converted to freeways and eliminate lights all together (Capital Blvd)

[Subway Scoundrel]

One good thing is "synchronizing the stoplights" can not be used again as reason the city should not try to do any Downtown revitalization. You hear people running for office and on afternoon radio saying Raleigh should not be spending money on DT and should spend the money to work on the lights

[pack-man]

Hopefully, it will help people commute to downtown quicker making it less of a task to get downtown. The biggest complaint that I hear is that it takes too long to get to downtown from N. Raleigh. This should help.

[jlblaes]

I got an email today regarding the US 1 Corridor Study seeking participation in the study. Here's some links that may interest you...

Website about the US 1 Corridor Study...

http://www.ncdot.org/doh/preconstruct/tpb/SHC/studies/US1/

NC Strategic Highway Corridors Vision Plan Map...

http://www.ncdot.org/doh/preconstruct/tpb/...Vision_Plan.jpg

Triangle Strategic Highway Corridors Vision Plan Map...

http://www.ncdot.org/doh/preconstruct/tpb/...an_Triangle.jpg

(Note that 540 becomes 640)

JB

[bdp]

my parents got a thing in the mail about this... while i think the plan to make Cap. Blvd a freeway is a good one... i think it will seriously screw up their neighborhood, so I am kind of torn about it.

[Jerseyman4]

If this all comes to fruition, this makes a WHOLE lot of sense for US 1 between DT Raleigh and I-85.

[Transplant]

The plan talks about making US1 North of I540 a freeway. Has anyone heard of plans to turn the portion from DT Raleigh (I440) to I540 into a freeway? I'm sure that would be very expensive, but would make traveling down that road much easier.

[capitalapts]

The more they restrict access to Capital Blvd./US1, the better. It only really gets bad from I-440 towards the north. The population really exploded up that way before they had a chance to better plan the road, says the optimist in me.

I've lived here since '93. I'm from Arlington, VA. So, the quickest route for me distance-wise, and I think still time-wise, despite the 64 bypass, is US1-85-95. It used to be that once you got north of Millbrook Road on Capital, you were in for smooth sailing, traffic and light-wise, spare a couple of lights that always seemed to be green, like Stadium Drive in Wake Forest and Hwy 96 (still the last stoplight on the way up north). That distance has nearly tripled these days. 540 has had an effect to be sure, as has the big mall there. But the most annoying stretch of the trip, by far, starts at the light at Durant Road and continues all the way through Wake Forest. My new pet peeve light is the one at the 98 bypass (still under contruction) to access that shopping center with the ultra mega super supreme target, home depot, and requisite applebees. Man I hate that one.

It would be great to able to alleviate traffic/restrict access, or at least make access make more sense instead of giving everyone a curb cut, on Capital, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[Jerseyman4]

Has anyone heard of plans to turn the portion from DT Raleigh (I440) to I540 into a freeway?

That wont be a freeway.

It will be an expressway (more so a jersey freeway than anything else) which in this case, it will be traffic light free with bridges going over the signalized intersections and/or providing right in/right outs with no median break along US 1.