Triangle road & traffic thread

[ChiefJoJo]

There is a public meeting tonight on this project (click me).

[pack-man]

build a bridge...build a bridge.

[orulz]

I usually don't drive at rush hour, but I did today and there was some pretty awful traffic today. Those of you who do commute regularly... is traffic like today normal? or is this the exception rather than the rule?

It took me an hour and a half to make it from Triangle Town Center to my apartment at Davis Drive & McCrimmon Parkway. With no traffic that trip will usually take about 30 minutes.

[mattm]

I dunno... it seemed slightly worse today. When I went over I-40 on Miami Blvd after 6:00 nothing was moving on it. However, NC54 moved ok right up to its usual jamup point between Airport Blvd and Aviation Parkway. When I take the bus at around the same time it's usually about the same, but I-40 is usually moving at a non-zero speed where we get on near the outlet mall. (Gee I sure wish I could skip by all that on a train!)

[NcSc74]

Still no HOV lanes in the Triangle. I just don't understand.....

[willrusso]

Taken today. 7/14/06

[JDC]

I too, don't travel by car often enough to experience Triangle traffic on even a monthly basis, but yesterday (Thursday, July 13) it took me nearly an hour and a half to get from downtown Durham to Glenwood South. And the ones in charge think nobody would ride a train to work. Bollocks.

[danclever]

Taken today. 7/14/06

Our future.

[Cary NC]

Our future.

Well unfortunately the people in DC that make the decision about the rail system don't have to sit in the traffic here in Raliegh. If they did, then maybe they would change their mind. They have their own traffic to sit in but they also have a metro option.

Secondly as mentioned on other postings, we need to unify the bus system under the name of TTA. Not having TTA,CATS, DATA, C-Trans (Cary's bus route) all running different bus routes. I think the local politicians feel for some reason if they do this then they are losing some of their power. Actually it would make them look good in the eyes of the public.

I think that is the complaint from DC. That we haven't done enough to regionalize the system. If we did and they saw the bus ridership numbers from a regional bus system then that would carry more weight.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Looks like the triangle has the same problems we have here in Charlotte.

It is time that the large cities in NC to start getting their fair share of funding.

It is not getting any cheaper to fixe this roads. It looks like we are in for a long waiting for these roads to get fixed.

All they have done in Charlotte is push the dates back a year, then next year push them back again due to no money.

Where in the world is all the money going in the state?

[JerseyBoy]

Looks like the triangle has the same problems we have here in Charlotte.

It is time that the large cities in NC to start getting their fair share of funding.

It is not getting any cheaper to fixe this roads. It looks like we are in for a long waiting for these roads to get fixed.

All they have done in Charlotte is push the dates back a year, then next year push them back again due to no money.

Where in the world is all the money going in the state?

:cough: :cough: The Coast :cough: :cough:

[Durhamite]

Yea, this place is going to be a mess in 10 years. I officially moved to Durham in 1998 and the traffic seems to have doubled since then. I questioned a few neighbors the other day as to WHERE in the WORLD are all of these people coming from. Then we laughed as there was me originally from the Wilmington area, another from Winston-Salem, 2 from DC and 2 from NY.

Our comfortable confines in terms of short commute times (that's why I relocated from DC) and etc, are beginning to erode and I fear the worse if an action plan isn't put into place soon. Why hasn't someone investigated a tax structure as Charlotte did to demonstrate this area is serious about mass transit. Of course, it will be an uphill battle with town-centric thinking, but at least give it a shot to show the FEDS this area is serious. This is one of the fastest growing areas in the US, albeit, mostly sprawl, but some form of a light rail system would help semi-urbanize the region and help redirect growth patterns.

I live in Durham and work in Knightdale (blessed be that I travel 50-75% of the time and just need to get to the airport). With the price of gas and traffic growth patterns (I-540 can't come soon enough), I'm considering a relo to North Raleigh or Knightdale (now we're talking SPRAWLISM on steroids).

I fear in 10 years it'll be too late. It's getting UGLY! I'll have to change my login name from Durhamite to N. Raleighite (doesn't seem to roll off my tongue as smooth..YIKES!)

[dmccall]

If traffic is worse in D.C., then it seems that a high occupancy rail system is not the right solution to I-40's problems. If it were the right solution, we'd have a nice thread about how we can get our traffic more like D.C.'s. I invite you all to check out the DC traffic thread. There are repeated notes about underfunding, lack of expansion, etc. Keep in mind that not even Disney could figure out how to get a HORV system profitable.

We need to go outside of the box on this one. The solution to our problem is not to emulate those with worse problems. Do the same thing and expect different results? That is unadulterated "insanity".

I'll bet good money that at least 90% of those people in that picture live >1/2 mile from one of the planned rail stops. (They will have to drive to a train terminal each morning). Do you honestly believe that people will opt to take 3 modes of transportation in their daily commute? Keep in mind that those people have already built their houses and their business have already built their office buildings.

[Subway Scoundrel]

I drive in off hours but the traffic between 4:00pm and 7:00pm on I-40 is usuall bad when I do drive it. It is amazing how bad it can be at 5:30 and how differnt at 8:00pm, although still crowded but passable.

[Transplant]

A lot of the traffic problems are associated with a couple of choke points.

1. The Wade Avenue Split - Why does a four lane highway split and have only 2 lanes continue as I-40??? I can't believe that the Durham/Chapel Hill section was widened before this section. This must be widened. HOV lanes would be nice, but there needs to be 4 lanes for regular traffic.

2. Harrison Avenue Exit - There are too many lights too close to this interchange. I've heard this area has gotten better, but still needs work. Maybe an exit before or after this exit would help. A weston parkway exit to the east might help.

3. I540/I40 merge. Page Rd exit off of I40 is in the wrong place. This causes anyone going west from I540 to weave. Supposedly, the I540 extension should help this area. I hope so.

In Chapel Hill, the 54 exit (293a i think) should not have a light right after the exit. And if it must be there, the DOT should retime that light to not trigger everytime a car stops at it (at least, not during rush hours).

I'm sure there are more

[orulz]

Perhaps I'm selfish here, but...

The idea behind the rail system, is for them to build it so I (and, presumably, tens of thousands of other people like me) can move somewhere close to a station and use it and benefit from it. Forget all the folks who bought into the 50-mile commute and expect free-flowing traffic as if it were a birthright. THAT is insanity in my book. Their mistake, homes are cheaper "out there" north of Wake Forest for a reason.

[dmccall]

THAT is insanity in my book. Their mistake, homes are cheaper "out there" north of Wake Forest for a reason.

ha ha. I see your point.

In reference to the choke points mentioned above. I think that Harrison Ave hill is a big problem. People will not keep their speed up it heading east, and it causes waves of brake tapping throughout the afternoon. Ironically the left hand lane drivers are the worst culprits.

I dont' know how it is now, but I found the same phenomenon on that hill just west of 55/40 on westbound 40 in the afternoon. The widening has to have helped that section.

For some reason, people don't anticipate hills and accelerate into them. They only find themselves halfway up, losing momentum and never being able to catch back up to cruising speed until the top of the hill.

I encouraged a DOT person that they put some signs saying "Maintain speed up hill", but I got the ol' "we don't encourage acceleration" garbage.

[Cary NC]

We have to remember that 8 million live in DC metro area. That is about how many people live in the entire state of NC. If rail ain't working there then there are other problems. In Denver, Salt Lake City, and Minneapolis they are profitable modes of transportation. In fact SLC, with the metro population as the same as us in the Triangle, not only has a light rail line of 17 miles but has begun construction on a 44 mile commuter line at the price tag of $581 million and guess what the FEDERAL GOV"T is funding 80% of it. Plus they have HOV lanes and a brand new 12 lane highway 17 miles long from the FEDs also. I think that their sprawl is different from ours. Tt can only go west b/c of the mts on the east. Maybe that has created a better density. I don't know but the Triangle has a problem that needs to be solved before it becomes counter productive to the economy/ job creation.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,640187666,00.html

[willrusso]

We have to remember that 8 million live in DC metro area. That is about how many people live in the entire state of NC...... http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,640187666,00.html

DC-BALTIMORE Metro.... How dare you forget my hometown. 3 million of those folks belong to the Baltimore half!!

Just kidding

[raleightransplant]

There has been a lack of public support for rail here for a couple reasons. One is that the powers-that-be have done an astoundingly horrible job of promoting it. The media, because of this, has taken a rather "wait and see" approach to the whole thing. And that's being kind. What needs to be emphasized is the absolute need for this to be put in place by everyone involved--and for the cities to really push this.

The other aspect are many people who live here. I may be wrong about this but this is how I see it. First off, for native North Carolinians--this is all rather new. If you've never lived (until now) in a city and state that is bursting at the seams with new residents--you don't quite know how to react. All of these people are moving here--and many still aren't sure we're a big city yet. I hear this all the time---"do you really think we need this--in Raleigh?" There is a tendency here for people to look at the here and now without regard for what the future is going to hold.

Secondly, you may not be aware just how much this is needed for an area like this--and how quality of life can be impacted. No YOU may not want to ride the rail, but people aren't going to stop moving here--and that commute that's getting worse now will be beyond terrible in 15 years. Another problem are the people who move down here from the Northeast and feel like they've "got it made" with their 45-60 minute commute out to Clayton every night. They're used to sitting in traffic for 2 hours--and now it's only one--yipee! It's almost like some people think they've moved to the country all of a sudden and there's no need for a mass transit option. Well dare I say it, but you're setting a dangerous precedent when your metro is about 1.6 million and you're gaining on Atlanta or Boston in the traffic department. Those places are 3-4 times the size of it here. By the time we get to 4 or 5 million--THEN how will our traffic look?

Ultimately--I think what will happen is what the census is telling us already. Raleigh, soon enough will be large enough to establish it's own rail system. At that point, rail w/in Raleigh will be needed and we may get somewhere with that. Due to the lack of leadership between the cities of the Triangle--this seems like it may be where we're headed.

[Subway Scoundrel]

There has been a lack of public support for rail here for a couple reasons. One is that the powers-that-be have done an astoundingly horrible job of promoting it.

Good point, but I would also like to mention the "powers-that-be" like the JL foundation and the "afternoon idiots" have fought hard in the open and behind the scenes to make this appear not feasable to downright stupid by funding their own studies and not talking about real issues. (Remember, the JL Foundation solution is to double-deck I-40.") No one has stood up and said we need this outside of a Cisco Executive and IBM giving land to TTA which goes unnoticed. Not to mention our 2 Senators who have shown no support. (Well Dole dabble a little but I think the "powers-that-be" got to her before she took a half-step forward.

In Charlotte, I think they had conservative business leaders see advantages of a rail system. Not here.

[ncwebguy]

A large contributor to the I-40/Wade Ave bottleneck are commuters trying to get from I-40 west to the Harrison Ave. exit in the morning and from Harrison Ave. to the two left lanes to stay on I-40 east. Also the Harrison Ave. exit on westbound I-40 backs up to I-40 proper as well. Harrison is the *only* access to SAS campus and Weston offices from the highway.

I'm not a big fan of more roads, but if they built a four lane connector (or extended Cary Parkway) from Harrison Ave to I-40 near the 40/54 exit and improved that bridge to a SPIV with more green light time allocated to the direction of the rush, 40/Wade would not be as bad. I know SAS has a "back door" entrance at SAS Campus Drive and Trenton Road, but it seems to be for used for emerency use only? Also Trenton Road (which becomes Trinity to the south) is only a two lane road, so it would need to be widened to four lanes as well. But this would be a *lot* cheaper than widening 40 through the Wade Ave interchange. The 40/Wade development will *not* help this area, dumping more traffic in every direction.

An accident (even pulled off into the median) on 40 east from 540 to Wade will bring traffic to a halt. The 40 east down/up to Harrison/down and up to Wade slowdown is mostly due to tractor trailers who don't want to burn their brakes on the downslope, and don't want to use too much gas to get up to speed on the uphills. That is why it always seems like things get "better" east of Avation Parkway only to get worse at the approach to Harrison.

I can see the daily backups from south durham freeway to east 40 every afternoon from my desk. The Triangle Parkway might aliveate *some* of this, but not all. Alexander to 70 to 540 is an ok alternative, but it has traffic lights, so people go down to 40 then back up 540 since it is "quicker" even with the traffic snarls.

Will phase I of the TTA train fix this? No, since a lot of these commuters are going to Apex, Clayton, East Raleigh/Knightdale and beyond and the train doesn't go that far. But the train will create a backbone that (hopefully) Eastrans (follows Garner Road towards Clayton, on to Selma, Goldsboro, Kinston, etc)and some kind of East Wake transit -- a commuter train along the tracks that run from downtown Raleigh through the downtowns of Knightdale, Wendell, and Zebulon. This could be expanded into Nash county with expansion to Middlesex, Bailey, all the way to Wilson and points east.

[orulz]

A large contributor to the I-40/Wade Ave bottleneck are commuters trying to get from I-40 west to the Harrison Ave. exit in the morning and from Harrison Ave. to the two left lanes to stay on I-40 east. Also the Harrison Ave. exit on westbound I-40 backs up to I-40 proper as well. Harrison is the *only* access to SAS campus and Weston offices from the highway.

I'm not a big fan of more roads, but if they built a four lane connector (or extended Cary Parkway) from Harrison Ave to I-40 near the 40/54 exit and improved that bridge to a SPIV with more green light time allocated to the direction of the rush, 40/Wade would not be as bad. I know SAS has a "back door" entrance at SAS Campus Drive and Trenton Road, but it seems to be for used for emerency use only? Also Trenton Road (which becomes Trinity to the south) is only a two lane road, so it would need to be widened to four lanes as well. But this would be a *lot* cheaper than widening 40 through the Wade Ave interchange. The 40/Wade development will *not* help this area, dumping more traffic in every direction.

Although I think I-40 really does need 6 lanes from Wade to 1/64, you bring up a good point about traffic moving from Harrison to EB I-40 and WB I-40 to Harrison in the morning clogging things up at the 40/Wade junction.

The town of Cary has a plan an an alignment to extend NE Cary Parkway to tie in to the Trinity Road bridge over I-40. At the moment the plans call for a four-lane cross section from Harrison to Trenton, and a two-lane section from Trenton into the existing bridge over I-40. At present, due to neighborhood and natural environment concerns, the project is not envisioned to be built before 2014, and there are no plans for an interchange at I-40.

I'm a bit torn on this one. Connectivity of arterials is a good thing, though most of our region isn't necessarily lacking in that department (what we do lack are logically laid out collectors and interconnectivity of neighborhood streets). Most of the land north of the proposed Cary Parkway extension is owned by SAS and the state so development probably wouldn't spiral out of control. I would however oppose the interchange at I-40 that you mention, so as envisioned this would have little-to-no impact on congestion at 40/Wade.

[ChiefJoJo]

Will phase I of the TTA train fix this? No, since a lot of these commuters are going to Apex, Clayton, East Raleigh/Knightdale and beyond and the train doesn't go that far. But the train will create a backbone that (hopefully) Eastrans (follows Garner Road towards Clayton, on to Selma, Goldsboro, Kinston, etc)and some kind of East Wake transit -- a commuter train along the tracks that run from downtown Raleigh through the downtowns of Knightdale, Wendell, and Zebulon. This could be expanded into Nash county with expansion to Middlesex, Bailey, all the way to Wilson and points east.

Yeah, i think it's important for people to know that rail transit won't solve all of our traffic problems. As long as sprawl continues to happen further and further out from the city centers, people will tend to want to drive to work. TTA will at least give some people who choose to live nearer to the city centers an alternative to the single-occupant vehicle, and will provide the backbone for future expansion of the system.

[Transplant]

Yeah, i think it's important for people to know that rail transit won't solve all of our traffic problems. As long as sprawl continues to happen further and further out from the city centers, people will tend to want to drive to work. TTA will at least give some people who choose to live nearer to the city centers an alternative to the single-occupant vehicle, and will provide the backbone for future expansion of the system.

I feel I'm the only one who sees it this way, but with only two stops in DT Raleigh and 3 in DT Durham, there isn't much motivation to live close to DT. There is only so much that can be built around these stations. I understand that this is a backbone, but the future expansions does nothing to increase the number of stations in DT raleigh.

I think we need future expansion plans for DT Raleigh, DT Durham Transit, and (most importantly) RTP.

Maybe someone could explain this: Why would the first plan for Wake expansion be to follow the 'Easttrans' path? Why are we neglecting the entire east side of DT Raleigh? For me, these are A) folks who would use the train, and B) densities are much higher than any other station would have.