Triangle road & traffic thread

[ncwebguy]

Every other project in the Triangle gets pushed further back in line for the East End Connector, and it won't start until 2012? From now through 2013, Wake county only gets Davis Drive and Airport Blvd widenings (maybe, they should have started already), completion of NC 98 Bypass, and "some" 401 widening. Wow. Raleigh is already maintaining state roads the state won't maintain via last years roads bond. Mayor Meeker is dead on:

"The North Carolina DOT is becoming a maintenance and repaving organization, and not a new construction entity. So new construction will need to be done either by the state Turnpike Authority or by the individual municipalities."

The article makes it sound like the EEC will benefit Western Wake residents, but it won't. It would take a lot longer to drive up to the EEC, over to 147, and back down to RTP vs. 540 to 40 or Alexander Drive to 147. It *won't* improve I-85 to I-540 connectivity, as US 70 will not be improved east of the connector. North Raleigh and Wake Forest commuters that use NC 98 will not benefit either, as Sherron Road provides a more direct path.

The only areas to benefit from this will be:

- people on I-85 North just outside Durham's Urban Growth Boundary, which will lead to sprawl along the I-85 corridor.

- people in central Durham getting slighlty quicker access to Brier Creek.

It will *increase* traffic on 70, which Durham and NCDOT have budget no money or intention to improve.

Durham already has a "loop" of sorts consisting of I-40, 147, and 15-501. Unfortunately, this leaves downtown Durham on the outside looking in. So an even more contrived version going from 147 to the East End connector to 70/85 to 15/501 is now being created.

If there was a good connection from 15-501 southwest of South Square to US 70, Duhram would have a loop, with I-40 creating an "outer loop" from the Wake county border to 15/501 or "West" Erwin Road. MLK Parkway covers a lot of this, but dead ends at 55. The railroad keeps 55 to 147 connectivity limited to Cornwallis/Alexander or Riddle/Ellis. (West/East/vanilla) Cornwallis parallels MLK, which lightens traffic on both roads, but they are both Northwest to southeast, not west to east. And Cornwallis takes a 90 degree turn by the cemetary into the Cornwallis/Fayetville Street stretch.

The quote in the Herald-Sun article about Durham finally getting its "fair share" from 15 years ago is crazy. In that time, Durham has received hundreds of millions of dollars for the Durham Freeway extension, I-40 and I-85 widening projects, MLK parkway, US 70 improvements, and the never ending NC 55 widening project, yet still expects $100 million more.

This only makes sense to someone who thinks there is any significant Wake County traffic that will

leave Interstate 40 at the Durham Freeway and then travel to the East End Connector, which will them take them immediately to U.S. 70, then from 70 to Interstate 85," Spaulding said.

instead of the existing 540 to 70 to 85. 70 is as wide as Durham Freeway (4 lanes) and has few (six existing, which all give 70 the most green) stop lights from 540 to 85.

[Atlside]

I-85 project set to complete within two weeks

BY GREGORY PHILLIPS

The Herald-Sun

Sep 6, 2006

DURHAM -- After seven years of misery, drivers on Interstate 85 through Durham are within smiling distance of fully open lanes in both directions.

All northbound lanes already are open. And the southbound lanes -- some of which are still behind barriers or cordoned off -- will all be open within two weeks, said Aaron Earwood, the state Department of Transportation's resident engineer in charge of the $200 million widening project.

The I-85 expansion comprised three separate projects, beginning at the U.S. 70 interchange and working west.

That enabled the northbound lanes to be opened as each section was complete. Although the cordoned-off southbound passing lanes at the northeastern end of Durham are ready for use, Earwood said they're being kept clear until all lanes are ready. That way, drivers won't have to negotiate a four-lane road narrowing to a two-lane road as they move south, he said.

Beyond the lane openings, Earwood said all the remaining work on the interchanges, signage and medians will be done by the project's final completion date of Dec. 31.

See full article:

http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-767500.html

[JDC]

Widen 147? Why?

Transportation planners who know what they're talking about will tell you that widening a freeway fights traffic as effectively as loosening a waistband fights obesity.

[RaleighRob]

Compared to I-40, I-85, and I-440, I've always thought NC147 had lighter traffic and didn't need widening anytime soon. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lighting? Maybe in the downtown stretch...but that's it.

What the Triangle really needs is

A) US 1 north of I-540 to be turned into restricted-access freeway. and

B) NC 54 widened to four lanes or more consistently from the Fairgrounds all the way to Chapel Hill.

[willrusso]

The Durham freeway widened? What for? There's never anybody on it.

[dmccall]

Channel 17 tonight reported I-85 as a 13-year project. I scratched my head at that one, but 7 I can believe.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Compared to I-40, I-85, and I-440, I've always thought NC147 had lighter traffic and didn't need widening anytime soon. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lighting? Maybe in the downtown stretch...but that's it.

What the Triangle really needs is

A) US 1 north of I-540 to be turned into restricted-access freeway. and

B) NC 54 widened to four lanes or more consistently from the Fairgrounds all the way to Chapel Hill.

Why so stingy with streetlights in the Triangle. Most cities rightfully would have a freeway lighted throughout.

[Creasy336]

I don't believe NC 147 should be widened. I do believe it should be modernized to interstate standards (I-585 maybe)

[RaleighRob]

Channel 17 tonight reported I-85 as a 13-year project. I scratched my head at that one, but 7 I can believe.

I think 7 years was the actual construction, but once you add designing, planning, environmental permitting, hydraulics, etc etc...it totals 13. Which is not unusual for a major project like this...especially one that requires the road stay open while you build it.

[danclever]

NC 147 is getting more use at rush hour, believe it or not. But the only reason they should widen it would be to include BRT lanes. Actually, it seems the ROW gets really narrow when you get into town, so I don't know how feasible it would be to widen it. It certainly would be problematic politically. If DOT insisted on widening it, they should consider development bridges (i.e. turn part of it into a tunnel). Costly, though.

It seems that plans were already afoot to put in lighting, esp. between Alston and Swift. I think it was part of a project to improve the landscaping and appearance of the approach to Durham.

BTW, the rusty old pedestrian bridge near Alston should be coming down soon, and replaced with a brand new one.

http://www.nicomachus.net/2006/05/the_outs...t_new_bike.html

[ChiefJoJo]

Pretty sure that there are no plans to widen 147. You can check here for a list of projects to be improved, the 2007-2013 Draft TIP. There are plans for the East End Connector which is a much more needed project IMO.

BTW, the street light question has to be the most often asked question on this board. Please do a search to find more details on that. Basically, it comes down to a cost effectiveness formula that looks at nighttime traffic volumes and safety needs. NC 147 has relatively low volumes for a freeway (440, 540, 40, etc have more traffic and still no lights) so I doubt there's a need to install lights.

[Jerseyman4]

I never thought the Durham Freeway needed extra lanes but safety improvements here and there wouldnt hurt to do (improved signage, resufacing, etc).

For a moment, i thought when NBC 17 said 13 years of construction for I-85, i thought they were also including the resurfacing project north of US 70 towards the Granville county line (it was on going for several years, dont think it was 6 years). NOW, that was a HEADACHE because im sure some of you remember it was one lane each direction! As a kid, we bypassed that junk as much as we could before we got onto I-85 before Granville County. I do not remember exactly what side roads we took but we passed by a drive-in movie theatre, at the time, seemed like it was still in operation.

[orulz]

NC 147 has relatively low volumes for a freeway (440, 540, 40, etc have more traffic and still no lights) so I doubt there's a need to install lights.

Yeah - particularly at night, traffic on NC 147 is light.

However, the alignment through downtown makes it easily the curviest freeway in the Triangle. I don't even recall interchange lighting on this segment. I'd say that at least, say, Erwin Road to Alston Avenue, is in pretty dire need of some lighting.

Another thought.

Could the East End Connector have been built instead of the I-85 widening, and had the same effect on east-west traffic in Durham?

[JDC]

I don't believe NC 147 should be widened. I do believe it should be modernized to interstate standards (I-585 maybe)

Depends on the state. I might argue that because 40 and 85 become one not too far from where 147 begins, it would likely be considered a "loop" as opposed to a "spur" and be given an even first number (485 or 240 perhaps).

[Atlside]

The 2001 traffic counts on I-40 were as high as 147,000 cars per day.

Page 6 of this says the Durham Freeway is epected to exceed 200,000 cars per day

They call it I-47 (NC I-47) the I-Way

http://www.sberspace.com/_pdf/tobacco.pdf#...%20freeway'

NC DOT Traffic Count Information

http://www.ncdot.org/doh/preconstruct/tpb/.../traffic_count/

http://www.ncdot.org/doh/preconstruct/tpb/traffic_survey/

Traffic Survey County Maps 2004

http://www.ncdot.org/it/gis/DataDistributi....html?year=2004

[bullcity76]

The article makes it sound like the EEC will benefit Western Wake residents, but it won't. It would take a lot longer to drive up to the EEC, over to 147, and back down to RTP vs. 540 to 40 or Alexander Drive to 147. It *won't* improve I-85 to I-540 connectivity, as US 70 will not be improved east of the connector. North Raleigh and Wake Forest commuters that use NC 98 will not benefit either, as Sherron Road provides a more direct path.

The only areas to benefit from this will be:

- people on I-85 North just outside Durham's Urban Growth Boundary, which will lead to sprawl along the I-85 corridor.

- people in central Durham getting slighlty quicker access to Brier Creek.

The benefit would be in conjunction with the Triangle Parkway which would extend Durham Freeway to 540 in Cary. Davis Dr/Hwy 55 are already being widened in this area. The Western Wake extension is nice but won't be as critical as the EEC. The EEC makes a lot of sense for Durham and West Wake County. The Northern Durham Parkway (Eno Drive) would actually open up more land for development while improving connectivity and access for residents of Treyburn, Northeast and East Durham (still not necessarily sprawl due to short distances to major employment centers...Durham is a very compact county.)

The community actually stepped up to prevent a traditional loop that would have led to sprawl...which led to delay in funding for 15 years.

BTW, the area of Durham north of 85 is far beyond rural pastures. It is already developed and probably contains close to 40-50 percent (unofficial number) of the population. I-85 and I-40 improve regional connectivity but doesn't just benefit Durham but the Triangle and the State. Most people traverse Durham (N to S...S to N) or down the BLVD (15-501 to Chapel Hill).

[dmccall]

Durham has benefited from not having a loop in my opinion because it is not easy for sprawl to occur.

What? New Hope Commons, Southpoint, 55/54 aren't sprawl? Yes, less land was gobbled up than in N. Raleigh but Durham has had WAY less growth than Raleigh. I think you're confused by a volume issue instead of a quality issue.

[citiboi27610]

What? New Hope Commons, Southpoint, 55/54 aren't sprawl? Yes, less land was gobbled up than in N. Raleigh but Durham has had WAY less growth than Raleigh. I think you're confused by a volume issue instead of a quality issue.

I'm not saying sprawl hasn't occured. I'm also don't think that what has occured has been 'good sprawl', if there is such a thing. I'm just trying to point out that the way the highways are laid out in Durham, it doesn't allow for explosive sprawl like seen in Raleigh. Interstate 540 when first envisioned went around the city. Development gathered around and beyond the new exits leaving open land, perfectly good land at that open. In Durham, the highways for the most part, except for I-40 through the southern part go through the city. This is the opposite of what Raleigh has done with its highways, the better connectivity lies within the city rather than around it with two loops. In the long run, I think Durham will have a better city as far as growth control goes.

And on an additional side note, Raleigh could still get some freeways through town if we ever get the turnpike authority up and running well, and local planners would see the benefits of beginning construction now rather than later. I think a freeway from downtown Raleigh up past 540 would do alot for traffic control and connectivity to downtown Raleigh. And if the regional train system gets approved, maybe Raleigh can grow smarter.

[NCMike1981]

I think some of it has to do with I-85 in Durham being built in the 1960's and the Freeway being built around the same time. Much older highways then Raleigh. We all know about how the freeway disconnected the Hayti community from downtown Durham back in the day, and I-85 was actually kind of on the outskirts of Northern Durham when built over 40 years ago. My grandparents bought a house in the late '40's off Broad Street, the house is now across the street from the Northpointe Shopping Center with Costco. Back then the city limits went through their yard and they had a choice as to whether or not to be included in the city and they chose the city because they figured they'd be annexed within a few years anyway. Well back then the tobacco warehouses were where Costco and Home Depot is now, still in use, and I used to hear stories about the dreaded tobacco bugs. If anyone remembers those warehouses they were the pea green windowless warehouses that were falling apart by the mid '90's when they were torn down. Well back then they were open, I think Ligget and Meyers used them for drying tobacco, and swarms of little black bugs thrived on them and would cross over Broad St occasionally and reek havoc lol. I think they were just a nuisance, like the love bugs in Florida. I saw some pictures looking up Broad St to where I-85 currently is and you can see where the street continues with no bridge, just level land. They cut down into the ground to build the interstate which is why it's so low compared to Broad St, I suppose to keep the highway level.

More stories....hmmm...the area where Brogden Middle School (Go Dragons!!! lol) and the Palm Park Apartments or whatever it's called nowadays was a farm until the early '60's, part of the "sprawl" brought on by I-85. The farmhouse was located about where the apartment complex office is now and I believe the city bought part of the farmland to build the "junior high" when the family who owned the farm was selling it off, the rest was sold to developers who built hundreds of apartments on the site.

Back in the late '40's Broad St was just a paved strip around where 85 currently is, and Leon St was a dirt road. They gradually paved and widened throughout the years...now the traffic is kind of heavy because of that shopping center, which was quite controversial because the developer promised the neighborhood no apartments would be built. I know because my grandmother was still alive and I heard all about them. The neighborhood thought the area was already saturated with apartments that have become seedier over the years and wanted single family homes built instead. There was also some kind of a broken promise about the shopping center, I'm not sure if it's the location within the tract of land or the amount of retail on the site.

I also remember very vaquely riding by the old WTVD studios off Broad St and seeing the sign up at the road for the studio. I think they moved to downtown Durham in their heavily secured present location years ago....

Now that I've rambled horribly off topic I'm hitting "add reply"

[ChiefJoJo]

Raleigh could still get some freeways through town if we ever get the turnpike authority up and running well, and local planners would see the benefits of beginning construction now rather than later. I think a freeway from downtown Raleigh up past 540 would do alot for traffic control and connectivity to downtown Raleigh. And if the regional train system gets approved, maybe Raleigh can grow smarter.

A freeway inside 440 will never happen. Maybe Capital Blvd will be upgraded one day to an expressway all the way out to 440 from DT, but that's about it.

[ncwebguy]

The 200,000 traffic count for NC 147 is probably for the whole length of Durham freeway vs. a single point of I-40. The backup of cars going from 147 south to I-40 east is impressive, but not 200,000 vehicles impressive. That document is a sales pitch/boosterism for the American Tobacco complex. It makes RTP appear closer to downtown that it actually is.

The NCDOT's Urban Mapping of Traffic Counts (Durham's most recent/2003 inset) shows the single highest point of traffic on 147 is 71,000 vehicles/day between Fayetvile Road and Chapel Hill Street. I-40 in Durham, on the other hand, increases from the 64,000 near the Orange County line to 144,000 just before the 40/540 interchange. I-85 peaked at 75,000 vehicles just east of the 15/501 Bypass intersection.

147 traffic may increase more on a percentage basis, but is a long ways from 200,000 vehicles. 2003 was before the widening project was completed from 147 to the west as well.

With the east end connector, it could be a X85 loop, with 40/85 being the westmost point and EEC/70 being the eastern most, containint 85 on the northern half, and 40/147/EEC/70 as the southern half.

[ncwebguy]

Why would Western Wake county go up 70 to the East End Connector to get to the Durham Freeway, take that to the Triangle Parkway to get to 540 when it could just.... get on 540!!! 85 to 40 connectivity only benefits Durham. People going from Cary to 85 North would do just as well to take 440 to Glenwood to NC 50 or to Capital Blvd and then north on 1 to Hernderson.

The East End connector is a local road being sold as benefitting the area and state. Durham County gets a free road and Wake County gets the Turnpike Authority.

To get from downtown Raleigh to 540, there is no freeway, but there is a set of spokes -- Wade Ave to 40, Glenwood Ave/Creedmoor, the Wake Forest Road/Falls/Atlantic Ave corridor, Capital Blvd, and eventually New Bern Ave. Capitol Blvd is almost a freeway as is from DT to 440 -- there are only three lights at Yonkers Road, Hodges Street, and Crabtree Blvd.

[Sharpless]

I took this pic from a website that promoted the building of Eno Drive. In conjunction with the Western Wake Freeway, I can definitely see how the EEC would benefit western Wake county in their efforts to drive to points north (Richmond, DC, Philly, etc.). At the present, this route would be preferable to I540-US64-I95 during certain periods of the day (like rush hour).

Here's the website.

http://www.durhamloop.org/index.html

[ncwebguy]

The map looks good because it doesn't show existing roads -- I-540 north of 40, US 70, I-40, I-440, US 65 (and the bypass), I-95, etc.

For the East End Connector to be this useful, the part of 540 south of 55 would have to be built past US 64 to US 1 -- a project that will not get a *dime* of NC DOT funding.

When the US 1 widening from 64 to 440 is complete, the route of US 1/440/"new" 64/95 will be quicker, *especially* during rush hour, than 540/triangle parkway/eec/70/85 if you are trying to get to the I-85/I-95 split south of Petersburg, VA. The main traffic bottleneck on 40 is the two lane strech of 40 from the 40/440/US 1/US 64 interchange in Cary through the Wade Ave interchange, but is fine going east on the outer beltline or east on the inner if you exit at 1/64. If/when 540 completes its loop to "new" 64 East in Knightdale, that option is even better.

From Sandford/Southern Pines 421 is good access to 95 and from Fuquay-Varina, Holly Springs, etc. NC 42 is a good east-west connection to I-95. How many people make this trip now?

[citiboi27610]

A freeway inside 440 will never happen. Maybe Capital Blvd will be upgraded one day to an expressway all the way out to 440 from DT, but that's about it.

Maybe I'm to naive to believe that Capital Blvd. from downtown to I-440 will never be turned into a freeway. It would do wonders for fast access to downtown even as downtown gets denser and new developments pop up in vacant areas. I don't see it as being all that difficult, but I'm only a college student, I don't know how those things work. And, along with improvement of capital from I-440 to I-540 (not very likely), the benefit of that cooridor would be great for Raleigh.

The Turnpike Authority can make projects like thest happen. Any news on the NC Turnpike Authority and progress on getting any of the proposed highways built?

Can a city build its own toll roads?