Triangle road & traffic thread

[ncwebguy]

Pedestrians *are* crossing Capitol -- eight fatalities among 27 accidents in the last five years is proof of that. Another reason people cross Capitol by foot, buried at the bottom of the story, is to catch the bus. People who don't have a car need to take the bus. Over the course of a round trip, a bus rider will have to cross Capitol to either catch the bus or get home after being dropped off. Should we not provide bus service on Capitol?

The problem with Capitol Blvd is that there is a lot of stores and apartment complexes on both sides from Old Buffaloe road north through Milbrook/New Hope with *no* grade seperated crossings. There are three close to downtown -- Peace Street, Wade Ave, and Atlantic/Wake Forest. The Capitol to Wake Forest NW bridge has no sidewalks since pedestrians can cross at Atlantic. But there is no good way to get from Wake Forest to Atlantic without backtracking to Whitaker Mill. And the Atlantic bridge over the railroad tracks has no sidewalks either, since it was built to support vehicle traffic only. Biking Atlantic is difficult because it is a quick climb and cars accelerate to get over the hump and can't see bicycles (forced to share the road) over the peak. The greenway will go under Capitol near Hodges Street, if it ever reopens. Going north from there, there are *no* pedestrian friendly over or underpasses until NC 98 in Wake Forest.

The "service roads" mentioned in the article are few and far between as well. The only ones still in use today are south of New Falls/Main Street near Wakefield, Cheviot Hills north of 540 (though the golf course there closed last year), the area around the 440 interchange, the small strip near the Flea Market Mall/Hideaway BBQ, and the west side stretch from Raleigh Bonded Warehouse to Wade Ave.

I hate that Mrs. Taliaferro's selective memory. Was North Raleigh "forgotten" when Capitol Blvd was widened in the mid-late 90s? Does 540 not exist? What about Wakefield? The widening of Falls of Neuse, Durant, etc. and the improvments around the Triangle Town Center area ring a bell?

What ITB projects in the last 20 years can compare to any of those? Improving Western Blvd between Method and Avent Ferry, extending Western to meet MLK south of downtown. I guess you could throw F Street in, but it improved more than the road itself. Dollar for dollar, F Street has generated a lot more investment than any other road project in the city.

As for 440 in Southeast Raleigh, they were closing lanes to do repairs a few months ago, but I haven't seen anyone out there in a while since. The bend between Hammond and Rock Quarry has houses to the south and wetlands to the north, going right through Biltimore Hills. I think the older houses were there first, then 40, then apartments and other houses.

[Jones_]

I cross Capital on foot fairly often to get Doughnuts near Highwoods. Even crossing at a light you have to run during the cycle and watch hard for people turning right because you do not exist when they are trying to beat the green flow of traffic. I once tried to bike home from Parker Lincoln by going down Highwoods and then Atlantic and it sucked. I rode in the grass as much as possible and at teh Atlantic underpass of the beltline had to carry my bike up the western dirt embankment to get itb....laws...meh...If if tried to invoke my right to share the road there I would be toast.

[orulz]

I've biked on Atlantic a couple times and it wasn't that bad - certainly better than 6 Forks, Wake Forest, Capital, etc., though I've never done it at rush hour. (only early morning & weekends.) It's an acceptable route for biking in NE Raleigh during off-hours. Detouring onto side streets is preferable, especially during rush, but then again who could possibly figure out how to go any appreciable distance in the twisted maze of loops & cul-de-sacs that are N.E. Raleigh side streets.

When it comes to cycling, I wouldn't go anywhere near Capital. I pity anyone who lives / works out Capital and has to walk, bike, or ride public transit. If I needed to cross to the other side of Capital, I would use the greenway at Crabtree Creek.

[DPK]

Observer trying to do their part to keep you on top of I-40 night work:

http://www.newsobserver.com/125/story/555514.html

[DanRNC]

Another story on what a failure I-540 is and will continue to be. Someone should send this to David Hartgen.

Story

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Another story on what a failure I-540 is and will continue to be. Someone should send this to David Hartgen.

Story

Agreed! The John L. Foundation should be made to watch this and tell us how putting even more money,(to come from other money's ie transit-rail), into building more roads forever is the only answer!

[tjoad]

More talk of widening I-40

Slight problem though -- THE FUNDS!. Let's ask Mr. Hartgen what exactly he means by "sensible" widening of I-40 and about not needing additional funds.

[RaleighRob]

^Meeker is right....this is alarming that there are no other big road projects in the Triangle for DOT, except for Durham's East End connector, yet they say they have no money for widening that stretch of 40. Very alarming.

(Note: the next stretch of I-540 will be done not by DOT but by the Turnpike Authority.)

So it really leaves the question: if DOT supposedly has an equity formula, where's the Triangle's money going to go to in the next decade?? (I know East End connector couldn't possibly be taking it all, considering how short that road will be.)

[ChiefJoJo]

That 540 story is hilarious to me. Yeah, more roads is the answer, right Mr. Hartgen?

The Triangle funding issue is most likely due to the equity formula.

First, loops are a different pot of money, so funding for 540 is not included in the equity balance. Second, the region just completed three major projects on freeways (equity projects) in the area: US 64/264 Bypass, US 64 in Cary, and I-85 in Durham. Those projects budgets total something in the neighborhood of $500M. That has probably eaten up a lot of the budget recently and even in future years.

[RaleighRob]

^ Right...good points. Although, interestingly the US 64 Bypass and 1/64 Widening have possibly made the situation on 40 worse by making it easier for people to get to Raleigh on their way to RTP.

[ChiefJoJo]

I-40 repairs to begin April 9th. You have been warned.

[pack-man]

this is going to be such a nightmare scenario

[ChiefJoJo]

Here's another reminder from the N&O about construction work on I-40 starting NEXT WEEK. It looks like they have some pretty good information sharing plans that would be valuable if you travle that segment. Thankfully, I rarely do.

[RaleighRob]

Well, as they have said, if you're travelling at night or weekend when they're doing this work, and you need to go someplace further west of ChapelHill, you can take NC 147 North to I-85 South.

The big problem will be travel within the Triangle, seeing as NC 54 is a really poor substitute for 40.

[ChiefJoJo]

Here's a WRAL story on a proposed bill that would provide "gap funding" for the Triangle Expressway, or whatever it's called. Without that money ($18M/yr for 39 years), the project will not be able to be constructed as planned, since tolls only cover about 3/4 of the total cost of the roadway. Actually, without that money, the road probably won't be built for 30 years or so.

[Transplant]

Here's a WRAL story on a proposed bill that would provide "gap funding" for the Triangle Expressway, or whatever it's called. Without that money ($18M/yr for 39 years), the project will not be able to be constructed as planned, since tolls only cover about 3/4 of the total cost of the roadway. Actually, without that money, the road probably won't be built for 30 years or so.

I just came back from Orlando. There are toll roads all over the place there. If/When the Triangle starts installing tolls, they should be built similar to those in Orlando. If you are not familiar with them, their toll roads are set at 7.5 cents per mile(according to wikipedia). Every entrance and and exit has a toll, and there are tolls along the road way too. The impressive thing is that the EZPass lanes (sun pass in FLA I believe) provide open lanes on the freeway where you do not slow down if you have a pass. For those unlucky enough, or unwilling to prepay for a pass can stop off on an exit type arrangement to pay in coin.

I'm not for tolls, but if they are to be built, there is no reason with today's technology, that a huge toll plaza needs to be built.

[ncwebguy]

I *hope* that new fee collecting technologies are used for any toll road built anywhere, but particularly North Carolina.

I'm sure the "tolls will be worse than the traffic we have now" fearmongering is coming from the devlopment and road building lobbies that want more handouts to continue their sprawl. But it is sad that the "these won't be your father's toll booths" voices are ignored by the media when they report on the roads.

The I-40 repaving is quite important, but it has taken the attention off other road projects in the area. I-540 to NC 54 was supposed to be done by "spring" but it looks like little progress has been made there since last fall. Going over the Slater Road bridge, there is only the concrete in place. Will it be concrete south of I-40, or do they need to asphalt over it? I don't go near the 54 to 55 leg, but suspect "summer" might be wishful thinking there as well.

Also, in Raleigh, Tryon Road from Gorman to Lake Wheeler is still a tangled mess of cones, uneven lanes, etc. It was supposed to be done in "March" when the weather made paving possible again, but it is still not done, and there are only occasional signs of progress. I think this is a city project, and not NC DOT, but it is frustrating to put it mildly. I guess I shouldn't care as my fiancee is moving soon, but it is another sign of road projects gone bad.

[Pack52]

Can someone explain why they have NC 54 (the first new exit after I-40) as exit 50? If they complete the whole loop is has to be longer than 50 miles... I have read: Interstate 540 is part of a planned 72-mile, $1.2 billion outer beltway around Raleigh.

If so this sign will need to be replaced and renumbered... If an amateur like me can spot it, it makes you wonder... Those signs are not cheap (of course they are peanuts speaking relatively, but I bet renumbering is more than I make in a year).

Also, the toll booths not being traffic jams depends on people actually using the EZPASS. I have sat in traffic tie-ups solely because of toll booth change only lanes backups in Orlando (granted with the number of tourists down there the numbers without EZPass should be higher than it would be here). I would much rather be safe than sorry and build a massive toll plaza...

[DPK]

Initially I can see them needing to have more "change only" type lanes open. The number of initial EZPass (or whatever they use, but I hope they use EZ) adopters will grow as time goes on. As more EZPasses are sold, the number of "change only" lanes can be reduced. Regardless, 540 bypasses Raleigh and will be used by alot of other people who only pass through every once and a while, so EZPass wouldn't make sense for them either.

So maybe 3 EZPass lanes, and 4 "change only" lanes per toll plaza? Eventually switch it around to be 4 EZ and 3 "change only". Or just have some digital signs that can change the lane status from whatever throughout the day depending on traffic volume. Yeah, probably that.

[RaleighRick]

Can someone explain why they have NC 54 (the first new exit after I-40) as exit 50? If they complete the whole loop is has to be longer than 50 miles... I have read: Interstate 540 is part of a planned 72-mile, $1.2 billion outer beltway around Raleigh.

If so this sign will need to be replaced and renumbered... If an amateur like me can spot it, it makes you wonder... Those signs are not cheap (of course they are peanuts speaking relatively, but I bet renumbering is more than I make in a year).

Another flaw with I-540 is it's name. I believe that in the interstate highway system, three number roads that begin with an odd number are spurs, point to point or expressways, whereas roads that begin with even numbers are loops. When 540 started it was called the northern wake expressway. That's probably because the State doubted if they would ever have the money to finish the whole loop. But, now with the possibility of toll roads, we'll probably have the only interstate loop in the country that starts with an odd number. Or they'll rename it after completion. There have to be some DOT guys out there. Is this true?

[citiboi27610]

Another flaw with I-540 is it's name. I believe that in the interstate highway system, three number roads that begin with an odd number are spurs, point to point or expressways, whereas roads that begin with even numbers are loops. When 540 started it was called the northern wake expressway. That's probably because the State doubted if they would ever have the money to finish the whole loop. But, now with the possibility of toll roads, we'll probably have the only interstate loop in the country that starts with an odd number. Or they'll rename it after completion. There have to be some DOT guys out there. Is this true?

The name I-540 was intentional as far as I understand for the reason you named: the funding wasn't there to complete it to follow the even number rule. The title I-640 is already reserved for us though. The loop in Greensboro, when it reaches back to I-40 will be called I-840. Right not I-540 is a spur as it starts at an Interstate but does not finish at one. This makes sense because generally speaking it could be many years before, I-540 reaches I-40 and officially become a loop.

Interstate Guide I-540

Scroll down to Future Aspirations

Interstate Guide I-840

[ncwebguy]

Also, 540/640 will be different from 440 in that will *not* incorporate I-40.

440 does not pass over 40 but merges into it at the 1/64 intersection in Cary, and then "splits" in the southeast section between Rock Quarry and Poole.

The "exit 50" numbering is weird, as they didn't know the exact path of 540/640. Exits are numbered approximately to their mile marker, not order of exit (1,2,3) in the segment already open for traffic.

It will be interesting to see if 40 is connected to from the south or north first. Extending 540 past 64 bypass seems to not be on anyone's radar the way the "southern wake expressway" toll road (all the way to 40?) is. That will carry a lot of the "through" 40 traffic moreso than the existing 540 will. Traffic to points north will continue to take 85 to the 95 corridor.

[ChiefJoJo]

The tool roads will use transponders and if you want to see how it works, look at the WRAL video I posted above. The main line gets the high-speed EZ Pass lanes (no stopping) and the chenge lanes must exit to a separate plaza to keep traffic moving.

Citiboi is right about the 540 numbering. It originally was not planned to encircle Raleigh (just N Ral), so it was counted as a "spur." i'm not sure about the number changing or not. That is going to be many years away, so I doubt it's on anyone's radar screen.

Interesting thing I heard about 440, was that the state was considering removing the mulitplex (dual numbering) with I-40 in S Raleigh to reduce confusion. The plan would be for 440 to run from Crossroads in Cary around the north side, but then end at I-40 exit 300. The exits already follow I-40 on the south side anyway, so it would not be a big deal. Never heard if it will be implemented though.

On the topic of interstate numbering... I think I posted this a while back, but the Regional Transportation Alliance business advocacy aroup wants to push for a new I-X95 designation for US 64/264 & I-40.

Apparently, there is some upgrading that would have to be done--probably to the older US 64 sections--before it could be approved. Other than that, the route now pretty much is designed as a free-flow freeway (ramps and all).

[Transplant]

Also, the toll booths not being traffic jams depends on people actually using the EZPASS. I have sat in traffic tie-ups solely because of toll booth change only lanes backups in Orlando (granted with the number of tourists down there the numbers without EZPass should be higher than it would be here). I would much rather be safe than sorry and build a massive toll plaza...

I believe the majority of frequent users of the toll roads would quickly adopt the ezpass system. Especially as those not are stuck scavaging for a quarter as I go whizzing by!

[ncwebguy]

In addition to the redo in Durham, the I-40/540 intersection will also causing traffic headaches. From 7 pm Friday through 6 am Monday, two lanes on EB 40 will be closed for work being done on the 540 entrance ramp.

I guess this means they're closer to opening the segment to 54, but similar work will probably have to be done on the westbound side as well. Will DOT make their "spring" deadline? Who knows.

Yesterday's article about a daycare near the proposed Triangle Parkway was silly as well. It is the equivalent of building a house next to a proposed airport, then complaining about the planes when the airport is built. If roads can't be built near day care centers or schools, the new construction part of DOT might as well close up right now.

As for removing the 440 signs from "through" I-40, I am for it. I hate trying to explain to people that they have to exit off of 440 to stay on 440 in the area near crossroads and South Hills. Taking 440 to 40 west would be somewhat easier.