Triangle road & traffic thread

[Otto]

Personally, I'd love to elect an urban mayor who wants to scrap the whole equity formula system and distribute funds based on crazy, wacky ideas like vehicle miles and number of cars on the road, with a little equity distribution to help smaller areas join the 21st century. But Mayor Meeker isn't running.

Given the choices for govenor this year, I don't know who I'll vote for until I do more research and the candidates talk more about their platforms, not why they deserved their respective party's nomination. After years of McCrory's anti-Raleigh talk from Charlotte, I need to see some sign that vehcile miles and number of cars will apply to the Triangle, and not just Mecklenberg and surrounding counties. Though Perdue hasn't done much other than get Andy Griffin to claim her as a friend in TV ads.

There definitely needs to be some consideration for the "adjustment" of the equity formula. However, if VMTs and number of cars are the primary means of determining the distribution of funds, then that would remove any motivation for urban areas to utilize smart growth planning. Using VMT and number of cars as the determining factor says the longer the commute and the more people avoid the usage of transit, the more likely you are to get the highway dollars that you want. There is then no motivation for urban areas to encourage citizens to use transit. One of the biggest motivators for people to use transit is sitting in congestion. In northern VA, if there were 5 to 6 general purpose lanes in each direction on I-95 and an HOV, the HOV lanes would be practically empty. This is not to say that the urban areas shouldn't get more money....they should....trust me...I am a highway planning engineer....so I recognize the need. I pose the question, would the LYNX light rail in Charlotte have over 3,000 more riders per day than projected if traffic on I-77 and I-485 didn't suck? There would be no motivation for implementation of nor the usage of the system.

As our VMTs in the Triangle continue to rise, the difficulty in meeting the air quality standard set by the EPA (which also ties in to urban highway funding) will increase. Political leadership in the Triangle need to embrace a balanced and well-rounded transportation system in order to truly be able to physically (infrastructure) and fiscally (financially) meet the future transportation needs of the region. Highway funds are not the whole solution. FTA (Federal Transit Administration) funds need to be part of the equation as they are part of they solution. Citizen of the Triangle need to be more open minded about utilizing public transit. Once that happens, the FTA will be more willing to contribute funds to a regional rail system to augment the existing and planned highway system.

The state govenment has a responsibility to address the transportation needs of the rural East, Central (because south and north of the I-40/I-85 Piedmont Cresent Corridor is extremely rural), and West. Rural areas may not have the volumes of traffic that the urban areas may have. They do have the old bridges, older pavement, narrow travel lanes, substandard horizontal and vertical alignments, and accident prone areas that can not be overlooked.

[JerseyBoy]

I don't understand how the toll system would work for someone who is out-of-state. If the car doesn't have a transponder, then the cameras snap a photo of its license plate. But does the NCTA have jurisdiction to search through other states' DMV databases? If so, I'm assuming NCTA would mail a bill to the driver's place of residence, but couldn't he/she just throw it away and not think twice about it? Or, would they be required by law to pay it? This is why I prefer the old-fashioned system, because the state is guaranteed to get its money when a person goes through a tollbooth (most times anyway).

[Gard]

^^^

From what I understand, DMV records nationwide are linked for easy access in all states.

[ChiefJoJo]

I don't understand how the toll system would work for someone who is out-of-state. If the car doesn't have a transponder, then the cameras snap a photo of its license plate. But does the NCTA have jurisdiction to search through other states' DMV databases? If so, I'm assuming NCTA would mail a bill to the driver's place of residence, but couldn't he/she just throw it away and not think twice about it? Or, would they be required by law to pay it? This is why I prefer the old-fashioned system, because the state is guaranteed to get its money when a person goes through a tollbooth (most times anyway).

Problem is a cash collection system would cost millions more in land acquisition and operating costs by having to hire workers to man the toll booths... and that's not even mentioning the lost time when thousands of drivers are stopped (avg cost of time =$17/hr/per). All told, I think the cashless system saves about $60M, and NCTA feels they can capture the majority of these out-of-state drivers such that it's worthwhile. More importantly, the Wall Street bond underwriters who will determine the bonding capacity and viability of the project, apparently agree with this method.

[phoenixnc]

I won't ever use that part of the highway so it won't matter anyway (the 540 part).

On a side note, what is up with Peace Street around lunch? It's okay in the morning and afternoon (generally), but at lunch it's chaos... 3 cycle waits up the hill at Glenwood. I think it's partly because of the one lane going straight and everyone going to lunch, but the cycles seemed very short (much shorter in the morning). Something needs to be done because traffic backs up all the way to capital. At least in the morning, the lights seem synchronized.

[ncwebguy]

The NC house's budget, which includes money for the Triangle Expressway Turnpike, has passed a second reading. So the budget moves on to the senate.

The article says $25 million/year for 39 years is going to the Turnpike Authority. The article does not say if it is all going to this project or for all Turnpike Authority projects across the state. I *hope* it isn't all going to the RTP roads, because if the total cost of the project is $1 billion, and 25x39 = 975 million, collecting tolls to cover the $25 million difference seems a bit excessive. I thought this project was going to get $10 million/year gap funding, which would be $390 million after 39 years, with tolls covering the other $610 million. That makes an assumption they will get $15.64 million/year, or net $42,852/day average in tolls after collection fees. Wow.

And this only gets 540 to the southern crossing of NC 55. This gets the outer loop across US 1, but a long way from reconnecting to I-40 in Garner/Johnston County.

It would be nice if this was funded by a TIF-like tax on land near the interchanges, but the House wants to reward land owners/speculators while punishing the public. I like that tolls will offset construction costs, but think the money could be a nice funding source for mass transit as well. But sentiment in SW Wake seems so pro-free roads/anti-transit since they got NC 55 widened and were "promised" 540, so that will never happen.

[ChiefJoJo]

The article says $25 million/year for 39 years is going to the Turnpike Authority. The article does not say if it is all going to this project or for all Turnpike Authority projects across the state. I *hope* it isn't all going to the RTP roads, because if the total cost of the project is $1 billion, and 25x39 = 975 million, collecting tolls to cover the $25 million difference seems a bit excessive. I thought this project was going to get $10 million/year gap funding, which would be $390 million after 39 years, with tolls covering the other $610 million. That makes an assumption they will get $15.64 million/year, or net $42,852/day average in tolls after collection fees. Wow.

I'm by no means a financing expert, but I think you have to consider the future value of the annual $25M payments, as inflation eats away at the value over time. The present value of $975M in 2047 is probably closer to $300-400M. Also, I believe the increased annual gap payment is due to further cost increases for the project, which total about $1B, or about $50M/mile. Building out a transit network doesn't seem so pricey anymore.

The Clayton Bypass is open. Now, I wish once and for all we could just forget the charade that the driving force behind this is to help speed development in central and western Johnston Co... see the Johnston Co Commissioners comment about halfway through the video that 'this will help economic development around the interchanges'. Maybe gas prices and mortgage concerns will put the brakes on cookie-cutter sprawl out there--one can only hope.

[ncwebguy]

I would hppe that inflation would also increase the amount collected in tolls as well. Do they not anticipate charging more 10 years after it opens than from day one?

It would be nice for the road to be "paid off" (not counting maintenance) in less than 39 years, but that does not seem to be the plan. Materials and labor for the road is being paid for in 2008/2009 dollars, so the value of that money in 40 years only matters when it comes to servicing the incurred debt.

I understand the longer this is put off, the more it will cost, but that doesn't justify building roads to almost nowhere because it has 20,000 vocal residents who want it to "spur economic development". Not setting aside some of the taxex collected on the "new economic development" to pay down the debt of the road that expanded the tax base is a giveaway to land owners and developers at the interchanges.

The bypass has only shifted congestion to the I-40/new US 70 interchange and I-40/NC 42 still is bad. Of course people want that section of I-40 widened from new 70 to old/business 70 in Garner. Because spending $123 million down there wasn't enough, they want to jump ahead of the scheduled/long overdue I-40 widening in Raleigh/Cary.

The new bypass will only make Johnston county more attractive due to "faster" commutes once their "new" I-40 problem is fixed, paid for by everyone else.

[ChiefJoJo]

Headline: Raleigh delays 10 road projects. Fine with me. I'll continue beating my ITB drum... Hmm, where are all these projects located? What transportation projects or services have been funded in the last few years inside the Beltline? Hillsborough St (and it's not U/C yet) and maybe Fayetteville St, if you consider it a roadway project (I don't). This is just another to add to the list of ways that 'growth doesn't pay for itself'. I say, if people want to continue to move way out to the fringes, (a) let them suffer in traffic or (b) pay for it themselves, rather than divert more of our tax dollars that could be spent on maintaining good service and infrastruture in and near the city core, like...

completing ALL of Hillsborough St, finishing the greenway plan, adding more CAT routes/shelters/frequency, new sidewalk construction, bike lanes/road diets, urban streetscaping projects, and just plain maintenance of city streets.

Clearly, the city council could not stomach more tax increases on top of the 4.18-cent increase they just passed. I like Crowder's idea of having a bond with 1/3 to 1/2 the money going to non-roadway projects.

[Gard]

I say, if people want to continue to move way out to the fringes, (a) let them suffer in traffic or (b) pay for it themselves, rather than divert more of our tax dollars that could be spent on maintaining good service and infrastruture in and near the city core, like...

completing ALL of Hillsborough St, finishing the greenway plan, adding more CAT routes/shelters/frequency, new sidewalk construction, bike lanes/road diets, urban streetscaping projects, and just plain maintenance of city streets.

One problem with that....

Those people moving onto the fringes are taxpayers too. The money used for the projects is also their money. The only thing that would result is building support for pro suburban people to oust the current city council and then its over for DTR. Cutting projects because of where they are is not the answer, discontinuing the annexation of every available strip of land on the outskirts is. No annexation=no city services=less desirable. The city is getting reading (were out surveying today) to spend 10s of millions on the street I live off of, practically in Wake Forest. If they cancelled the project, there would be a huge uproar over here and I would likely run for city council when the time comes to kick off one of the members who voted to cancel it and revive it.

[ncwebguy]

For the $24 million left in the 05 road bond, some projects that were part of the bond were not delayed (new Falls of Neuse to Wakefield and widening Six Forks). Other long overdue projects that will be a little longer overdue and hope they don't get delayed next year include three projects in North Raleigh (Old Wake Forest Road, Sandy Forks Road, Leesville Road), one road in central Raleigh (Wade Ave) three roads in SW Raleigh (Jones Franklin Road, Buck Jones, Lake Wheeler) and two in SE Raleigh (Poole Road, Rock Quarry).

If this year's projects will eat up the 2005 bond money, South/Southwest Raleigh got the Tryon widening, ITB got Hillsborough Street, North Raleigh got New Falls of Neuse and Six Forks while East and SE Raleigh got nothing. They haven't had much for decades, so they should continue to expect nothing? I understand the increased costs associated with construction, but we have to pass a *second* bond to get the projects promised as part of the first one? Why do we have any reason to believe there won't be another delay if the bond passes?

If North Raleigh decides they don't need the delayed projects, they can vote down the next bond and the rest of the city gets nothing after paying for the North Raleigh projects. I can easily see a "stop the road tax/re-elect Tommy Craven" campaign in 2009.

The higher impact fees are helping some to the tune of $2 million, but that isn't enough to make up for the DECADES of new and improved roads built further into North Raleigh, paid for by everyone else and even more so for center/south Raleigh that made do with little to nothing -- Western Blvd improvments and extension to MLK is the only other project than Hillsborough and F Street I can think of in the last 20ish years.

[ChiefJoJo]

Gard, I understand they are taxapyers, but the transportation and other money is not being spent fairly. I'm not saying that we should cancel projects that have already been planned. I am saying we need to stop some of this out of control growth, because this is where the chickens come home to roost, which is my point. Everyone sort of thinks of sprawl as being bad, but they don't understand the impacts, both financial and otherwise... and this is a perfect example. If we could reign in some of the by-right extension of city services to a certain point and downzone or agree not to annex the rest, then we can focus more attention on the existing infrastructure we have and need to maintain... not to mention police, fire, etc. Guess what? If we don't, then the tax burden gets stretched out, you and I pay more. Hopefully, the comp plan can deal with some of this, such that growth/development is tied directly to the ability of the city to support it with services, instead of 'approve whatever, and deal with the consequences later'... the 'strategy' favored by Fetzer/Coble, and to some extent, Meeker.

Webguy, I'm not sure when this happened, but Garner Rd was given a nice streetscaping and sidewalk extenstion not too long ago, plus there has been some streetscaping work on Wilmington St and the Rocky Branch greenway trail. Garner Rd, i think, is actually not too bad. What is really needed in E/SE is economic development incentives, better policing, and possibly better transit... but you know better than me, and that is for another topic.

[DPK]

WRAL is reporting that TTA ridership hit an all time high in June with 97,712 passengers. This is about 30% higher than June of last year.

http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/3164846/

[Gard]

WRAL is reporting that TTA ridership hit an all time high in June with 97,712 passengers. This is about 30% higher than June of last year.

http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/3164846/

Great to hear. The more it increases like this, the easier it is for them to argue their case for mass transit funding from both the Fed and State. I would almost bet that if they were to try and get some federal funding now that they would get it.

[ncwebguy]

The N&O reported the Triangle Expressway (and other NC toll roads) are getting their gap funding from stopping the highway fund transfer. So now the 2% vehicle sales tax will go toward four vanity road projects -- this, the North Currituck beach bridge/bypass, and bypasses on both sides of Charlotte (Gastonia, Monroe).

The Garner Road and Wilmington Street projects were mostly repaving/bridge replacement projects. They did not add any connectivity. Garner Road already had a lot of pedestrian traffic, now it moves safely. Unfortunately, neither project has spurred any development along their corridors. There is a lot of empty space, but the lack of connectivity to 40 for both roads has made them unattractive, even after their recent facelifts. Close proximity to the Cargill plant doesn't help either road's prospects going forward.

If all of south Raleigh received a portion of the infrastructure North Raleigh did in the 80s and 90s, Raleigh's population would be better balanced/distributed compared to its current top-heaviness. Today, the Garner Road and Wilmington Street projects (and to a lesser extent, the Western/MLK connector) look like putting make-up on a pig.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

So now the 2% vehicle sales tax will go toward four vanity road projects -- this, the North Currituck beach bridge/bypass, and bypasses on both sides of Charlotte (Gastonia, Monroe).

The Monroe Bypass is not a "vanity project." It is critical in one of the state's most crowded and inadequate corriors in the state's fastest growing county. It is about 25 years overdue.

[ChiefJoJo]

The NC Turnpike Authority opened bids for their Wake Toll project. It came in a lot cheaper than I thought. Construction begins in November.

Also, I was looking around online last weekend and came across this tidbit about signing on I-40 from Cary to SE Raleigh. The Regional Transportation Alliance pushed DOT for a sign/wayfinding audit, and they are going to redo some of the very old signs (25 yrs?) on I-40, and remove the 440 designation from US1-64 to exit 300 (I-440/40 spilt). I think it's supposed to start in November. (You can download the proposed signs at the link above)

[DPK]

Also, I was looking around online last weekend and came across this tidbit about signing on I-40 from Cary to SE Raleigh. The Regional Transportation Alliance pushed DOT for a sign/wayfinding audit, and they are going to redo some of the very old signs (25 yrs?) on I-40, and remove the 440 designation from US1-64 to exit 300 (I-440/40 spilt). I think it's supposed to start in November. (You can download the proposed signs at the link above)

Awesome find! I didn't know those were online.

[RaleighRob]

Ok...so here's a question.

With convention center about done and Fayetteville Street being lengthened to Lenoir, they have decided to turn both Lenoir and South Streets into two-way streets. Great idea.

However, for some reason, the stretch of South Street between Dawson and Saunders is still only one-way (eastbound). Why the heck was that done?? Anyone? It seems counter-productive to making those streets good corridors for getting across the southern half of downtown!

[orulz]

Must have something to do with the way that South Street narrows down so much under the railroad bridge, though it seems that they could fit at least one lane in each direction under there with no problem.

If that bridge is ever going to be replaced (it looks pretty damn old so it probably will be, eventually) it will have to happen simultaneously with double tracking the NCRR.

[RaleighRob]

^No, it's two-way under the bridge. (There's just no street parking there.)

The section between Dawson and Saunders is actually very wide. My only guess is someone in Boylan Heights didn't want additional access? (Which is how I found this all out...I was trying to use the new westbound South Street to get to Boylan from downtown, but was thwarted when I hit Dawson.)

[Jones_]

The is just the temporary quick fix for Marriott access. It is planned for both streets to be two-way along their entire lengths. It will take more money for additional signals and I am thinking maybe a nice repaving job is planned too...don't know on the paving part....

[ncwebguy]

When I lived in Charlotte in the early-mid 80s, US 74 in Monroe was adequate, but the city seemed determined to concentrate all retail, etc. on it. Jesse Helms was from there and represented their "keep taxes low at all costs" mentality, so they got what they deserve. Charlotte's conversion of US 74 to the northwest (Independence) to a freeway didn't help matters, and brought that section to the mess it is in today.

That being said, taxing the rest of the state (instead of using that region's NC DOT funds) to make up for their horrid planning is playing to their vanity. Though it is the same mentality that manifested itself here in the Triangle, requiring the construction of the US 70 bypass's bypass in Johnston County and eventually portions of the US 70 corridor east of I-95.

RE: 440/40 in south Raleigh, I hope making it "just 40" will help. Are there any of those rectangular Inner 440/Outer 440 Beltline signs out there? I don't know if they helped or just added to the confusion. A lot of new comers (and some people who have been here a while) have a tough time with the designations. Especially when you have to "exit" off 440 to stay on 440 in the SW corner near 1/64.

South and Lenior as a one way pair dates back to before the Western Blvd/MLK extension. As Jones pointed, they will be two way west side of Dawson (and east of Wilmington) once the street grid returns around the convention center/hotel complex. The same thing happened to Martin and Hargett east of Person when F Street reopened.

I *hope* two-waying Lenoir and South help reconnect the Saunders North area to the rest of the downtown grid. The train tracks, the one way streets, and natural topography have cut off that southwest corner from the rest of the center city.

[phoenixnc]

I know this is very off-topic, but I was wondering if there was a list of Raleigh's "steepest streets." I was looking on Google and there was nothing, so I wonder if there was another resource.

Sorry for being random...

[Jones_]

The crabtree basin seems to be the source of those that come to my mind....Glenwood heading NW from the mall, Blue Ridge heading south from the mall, Lassiter Mill climbing towards North Hills.....Duraleigh heading towards Glenwood from the quarry....all west of the fall line too...