Triangle road & traffic thread

[Gard]

^

Actually from what I read, the Triangle is getting some money, but its all going to roadwork, such as some repaving on 440 and 540. The first wave of cash, according to the state, doesn't give enough time in its stipulations to be used for much more beyond that. They said the second wave is where the good stuff will start coming into play.

[orulz]

The Triangle could be a good test market for the GM/Segway PUMA unveiled yesterday. It wouldn't be practical to get from Downtown Raleigh to Downtown Durham, but would be ideal to get commuters from their house to a train station in Wake Forest, Clayton, etc. And I could easily see using one to get from east of downtown to Cameron Village and maybe North Hills if NHE doesn't make Six Forks traffic even worse than it already is. Chapel Hill and the downtown/middle third of Durham could easily support those vehicles as well. If GM doesn't build them, someone else will.

I think those vehicles are a gimmick, and also a solution in search of a problem. They still take up too much space for a vehicle that's just not very practical. Way too big for a sidewalk, yet not really made for the open road either. Besides, I already have a great 2-wheeled vehicle that will take me to the nearest rail station (when it's built): it's called a bicycle. Takes up very little space, goes pretty fast, and you can get a junker bike to leave at the train station for cheap, cheap, cheap.

[DPK]

Edwards Mill extension on track to be completed in December of this year:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/growth/tr...ry/1480549.html

Additionally, it appears the improvements to the fairgrounds are eta'd at October 2011.

[Pack52]

Maybe someone knows more about this than myself. However, this looks to be their intention as I don't see any work on the shoulder.

Are they seriously going to make the former right turn only lane on southbound Wake Forest Road from Bahama Breeze/Hospital to the Beltline into either right turn/straight? In other words, they have taken what used to be the right turn only lane, and given it to those who turn left. I agree they needed an extra left turn lane badly, but this just shifts the problem from one side of the road to the other. Because people who don't know the intersection are blocking right turns to go straight now, it is backing up past the Hilton during rush hour already, further than the left turn line ever did.

Is this seriously DOT's idea of an improvement? Please please please tell me this is not their intention, and that they just have not addressed that section yet. If they leave it like this, I know the problem will be around for at least a decade.

Better yet, does anyone know of a site where you can get the drawings/markups for road improvements?

[ChiefJoJo]

Maybe someone knows more about this than myself. However, this looks to be their intention as I don't see any work on the shoulder.

Are they seriously going to make the former right turn only lane on southbound Wake Forest Road from Bahama Breeze/Hospital to the Beltline into either right turn/straight? In other words, they have taken what used to be the right turn only lane, and given it to those who turn left. I agree they needed an extra left turn lane badly, but this just shifts the problem from one side of the road to the other. Because people who don't know the intersection are blocking right turns to go straight now, it is backing up past the Hilton during rush hour already, further than the left turn line ever did.

Is this seriously DOT's idea of an improvement? Please please please tell me this is not their intention, and that they just have not addressed that section yet. If they leave it like this, I know the problem will be around for at least a decade.

Better yet, does anyone know of a site where you can get the drawings/markups for road improvements?

My guess is that the left turns were deemed worse since right turns are allowed on red (& lefts are not,creating more backups) and there's a huge left turning volume of traffic there WF Rd SB to 440 EB, so double left turn lanes were needed. Again, this is an educated guess.

[ncwebguy]

I think those vehicles are a gimmick, and also a solution in search of a problem. They still take up too much space for a vehicle that's just not very practical. Way too big for a sidewalk, yet not really made for the open road either. Besides, I already have a great 2-wheeled vehicle that will take me to the nearest rail station (when it's built): it's called a bicycle. Takes up very little space, goes pretty fast, and you can get a junker bike to leave at the train station for cheap, cheap, cheap.

When it rains or when it is warm out, a bike is not practical for going to work. These vehicles will have to be road worthy, though belong in bike lanes. If they can encourage more bike lanes, I'm all for them.

Also, you can't take a bicycle on a train, but with bike lanes or a corridor built to handle these, rail cars and their conductors, etc. would no longer be be needed.

If they ever see the light of day, they would probably be only on larger, semi-closed areas like retirement communities, golf resorts, Centennial Campus-ish college sites, or IBM's RTP campus. Maybe a "pedicab meets zip car" operation in downtowns, but probably not if public accepatance of Segways is any indication.

[Pack52]

With Wake Forest, I am pleased as they now have the right turn only lane back with what looks like to stay, although they have a funky diagonal pattern to go straight across the intersection now. Now the very left lane turns into two left turn lanes under the bridge, and the two lanes that go straight now go diagonal across the intersection to compensate for the extra left turn lane. The right turn only now turns right in front of where the lane next to you gets to go straight on. This is hard to explain, I guess you have to see it yourself. Not exactly a natural transition, but maybe they still have more work to do yet... I hope they never let the dashed line paint that directs you to the next lane wear out. However, I think the major traffic problems are averted at least...

[Jones_]

Maybe put a little concrete curb with bright yellow paint there.....in the ugly scenario, put a jersey barrier there...

[ChiefJoJo]

This article discusses bills that would transfer state roads to local govts, counties and cities. If they can find a way to transfer the right amount of money to the local governments, it's a great idea. Carrboro, Raleigh, etc, doesn't have to complain that the state won't let them build a more urban-friendly design if it's their street. Also, since local governments. make land use decisions, they would think twice before annexing large tracts and approving huge sprawling developments that would add dozens of miles to their street maintenance backlog... it would take away a lot of the age-old excuse of 'it's DOT's problem.'

[Gard]

Has anyone seen the new bus shelters? I saw one up on Capital the other day, along with pads at other stops for more and they look great

[RaleighRob]

Some idiot had the bright idea to close the railroad crossings (for maintenance) at West, Harrington and Jones all at the same time!

Anyone have an idea how long this will go on? Not good for weekends at Glenwood South & Powerhouse Square...the weekday traffic around there this week has been a pain.

[Jones_]

Some idiot had the bright idea to close the railroad crossings (for maintenance) at West, Harrington and Jones all at the same time!

Anyone have an idea how long this will go on? Not good for weekends at Glenwood South & Powerhouse Square...the weekday traffic around there this week has been a pain.

This thought should be transplanted into the highspeed rail discussion thread.....imagine say two of these permanently closed...

[ChiefJoJo]

DOT has signed a contract to build an extra 2 lanes on I-40 in Cary easing the bottleneck between the 6 lanes east of US 1/64 and the 8 lanes west of Wade Avenue. Of course, this is not a long term solution to congestion, but really a stop gap measure. I'm generally not supportive of adding new "free" lanes on interstates but it's reasonable to ease flow in this segment when there is already more capacity on both ends, and work can be done relatively easily (in the median) and without disruption to the environment or adjacent properties. Any kind of long term solution to regional travel to/from Raleigh, Cary, RTP, Durham, Chapel Hill must include looking at innovative ideas like variable congestion pricing of all the travel lanes on 40, managing the incoming flow entering the freeway (ramp metering), providing more real time information, possibly adding HOV or HOT lanes, and without a doubt building out a high capacity rail transit network in combination with compact land use at station areas.

[orulz]

Almost more important than the additional lanes: the signage will be revised. Hopefully these revisions will clear up some of the confusion at the I-40 / Wade Avenue split. I think that simply removing the "To I-440" from the Wade Avenue exit signs would go a long way towards fixing things. (who was it who suggested that? dmccall?)

Regarding the widening, though: I expect the scope of this project will actually end about about a half mile or so west of the actual Wade Avenue split. For WB I-40, I would guess it will extend to where that extra lane pops up on the left out of nowhere. For EB I-40, it will probably (hopefully?) extend to the Harrison Avenue onramp, so traffic from Harrison to Wade actually doesn't have to merge at all. This would effectively make I-40 into a 10-lane highway for about a mile between Harrison and Wade. There are a few other segments on I-40 like that, between the Durham Freeway and 540, where the onramp from one exit flows directly into the offramp for the next.

[Gard]

FYI, the NC Turnpike Authority has received a $386 million loan from US DOT for constructing 3 more segments (about 18 miles) of 540.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=...&id=6912174

[architect77]

Regarding the I-40/ Wade Ave split and its signage...

I don't think a truly correct solution even exists! The unusual layout and connectivity of the existing highways precludes using the typical "center city" and "bypass" labeling since each route is a little of both...

1) I-40 is actually a by-pass, and travelers seeing "DOWNTOWN" probably are expecting to end up in the thick-of-it all.

2) I don't like using "Wade Ave" for the freeway connector to I- 440. Wade Ave is a hilly, residential ITB thoroughfare whose mention doesn't belong at a major interstate split.

3) I propose re-signing that stretch to "To I-440 Cliff Benson Beltline", or calling it the "I-440 Connector". Even first time visitors to Raleigh will learn what "The Beltline" is within hours, and its use on large overheads would be helpful to all.

4) For I-40, I'm not sure. It's disappointing as the designated DOWNTOWN route, but in the coming years as Raleigh expands southward perhaps it'll become an "Express" route.

[orulz]

Regarding the I-40/ Wade Ave split and its signage...

I don't think a truly correct solution even exists! The unusual layout and connectivity of the existing highways precludes using the typical "center city" and "bypass" labeling since each route is a little of both...

1) I-40 is actually a by-pass, and travelers seeing "DOWNTOWN" probably are expecting to end up in the thick-of-it all.

2) I don't like using "Wade Ave" for the freeway connector to I- 440. Wade Ave is a hilly, residential ITB thoroughfare whose mention doesn't belong at a major interstate split.

3) I propose re-signing that stretch to "To I-440 Cliff Benson Beltline", or calling it the "I-440 Connector". Even first time visitors to Raleigh will learn what "The Beltline" is within hours, and its use on large overheads would be helpful to all.

4) For I-40, I'm not sure. It's disappointing as the designated DOWNTOWN route, but in the coming years as Raleigh expands southward perhaps it'll become an "Express" route.

I (personally) believe that a lot of the confusion could be alleviated by removing the blue 440 shield from the Wade Avenue exit signs. From a distance, you can't tell which of the forks carries the mainline interstate. Even up close it's hard to tell at a glance when you're driving in heavy traffic.

A big factor here is that the signs are of an outdated design. So, the first thing I would do is change them so they are the type with an arrow over each lane, rather than having that little tiny drawing of what the road looks like. This allows you to clearly mark the right two lanes for Wade Avenue as "EXIT ONLY" lanes. Something more like this (I85/US70) or this (I40/NC147). That alone would probably clear up the confusion permanently.

But if if confusion persists, here are some ideas for further measures.

For Wade Avenue:

1. Give Wade Avenue an NC route number, similar to 147 in Durham. Let's call it NC 333 for example.

2. Use the NC 333 shield on the signs for exit 289, and have the text read "Wade Avenue" "North Raleigh" "NC State University" "RBC Center", etc.

3. Leave off the I-440 and US 1 shields from the Wade Avenue exit signs. That makes it extremely clear that Wade Avenue is NOT for through traffic.

For people from out of town who don't know that you can take Wade Avenue / new NC 333 to get to the beltline, and don't have a map or a GPS to tell them to do so, just let them take the 5 mile detour down 40 and back up 440. This is a worthwhile trade-off to avoid all the dangerous last minute cutting over.

For I-40:

One possible approach would be to have NO sign over the lanes that lead to I-40. Like this (I40 / I540).

Barring that, convert the signs to the modern style, but leave the text more or less the same.

When there isn't a traffic jam, I-40 to South Saunders St is definitely the best way to get downtown: it's both the fastest and has the greatest capacity. This is also the place where an interstate passes closest to downtown. So, I think the "downtown" marker is appropriate.

Keep the "Wilmington" control point. Maybe get rid of the "To South US 1" shield, not sure.

[RaleighRob]

I propose re-signing that stretch to "To I-440 Cliff Benson Beltline", or calling it the "I-440 Connector". Even first time visitors to Raleigh will learn what "The Beltline" is within hours, and its use on large overheads would be helpful to all.

It actually once had its own name. Older maps will show it being called "Raleigh-ChapelHill Expressway". (Probably got that name back before there was I-40, & US 70 was the main route to Durham... and this was to replace NC 54 as the main route to CH, I'm guessing.)

1. Give Wade Avenue an NC route number, similar to 147 in Durham. Let's call it NC 333 for example.

2. Use the NC 333 shield on the signs for exit 289, and have the text read "Wade Avenue" "North Raleigh" "NC State University" "RBC Center", etc.

3. Leave off the I-440 and US 1 shields from the Wade Avenue exit signs. That makes it extremely clear that Wade Avenue is NOT for through traffic.

Wow...you've read my mind, basically, on the NC route number for Wade. Since I first moved to Raleigh, I thought it was odd we had a multilane controled-access freeway with no highway number. (I'm pretty sure it's the only one in the whole state like that, in fact.)

When there isn't a traffic jam, I-40 to South Saunders St is definitely the best way to get downtown: it's both the fastest and has the greatest capacity. This is also the place where an interstate passes closest to downtown. So, I think the "downtown" marker is appropriate.

Keep the "Wilmington" control point. Maybe get rid of the "To South US 1" shield, not sure.

Agreed. Although I think at least one exit other than just Saunders should be marked with "Downtown". Hammond/Person exit is a better route for anything east of Fayetteville Street, IMO.

[Jones_]

Since I first moved to Raleigh, I thought it was odd we had a multilane controled-access freeway with no highway number. (I'm pretty sure it's the only one in the whole state like that, in fact.)

Wendover Ave in Greensboro.....the old US 70 portion I don't believe carries any number now other than a local county number///

[architect77]

I think the confusion at this split begins as motorists arrive at the crest of a long gentle hill and suddenly are bombarded with too many signs and too much information to process in less than 60 seconds.

I don't agree with your proposal to remove the (440 shield) because 1) NC extra large shields and typefaces are exceedingly legible 2) the "Wade Ave" freeway section's main function/purpose is connecting I-40 travelers to I-440, easily Raleigh's most important highway.

NC always uses a diagramatical overhead as initial warning of upcoming split which is then followed by lane specific arrow signage. This interchange is no different except all of the signage is spaced too closely.

I'm guessing that possibly the entire interchange could be replaced as part of the widening project. NCDOT does a good job dilineating the mainline from the secondary route in its recent projects, thus completely solving the problem.

Visit the "Highway Fonts" thread in "Highways and Autobahns" at skyscrapercity.com where I show off NC's roads to a worldwide audience.

[orulz]

This interchange is no different except all of the signage is spaced too closely.

Thinking about it further, this is almost certainly at least half the problem.

To space things out, at the Harrison exit, replace this dinky little sign:

with a full overhead sign bridge just like this one:

That would give drivers warning of the "EXIT ONLY" a full 1 1/2 miles in advance, so they can get in the correct lane. They would know about it BEFORE cresting the hill. Problem solved.

The other half of the problem is that there are no "EXIT ONLY" signs until AFTER the lanes have already split. Though the sign is legible for perhaps 1/4 mile before the split, that's not nearly enough time. That sends dirvers into a mad dash across three lanes of traffic to stay on the mainline highway. So, every overhead sign starting from the new one at Harrison that I mention above should clearly show that the right two lanes are "EXIT ONLY".

[architect77]

Thinking about it further, this is almost certainly at least half the problem.

To space things out, at the Harrison exit, replace this dinky little sign:

with a full overhead sign bridge just like this one:

That would give drivers warning of the "EXIT ONLY" a full 1 1/2 miles in advance, so they can get in the correct lane. They would know about it BEFORE cresting the hill. Problem solved.

The other half of the problem is that there are no "EXIT ONLY" signs until AFTER the lanes have already split. Though the sign is legible for perhaps 1/4 mile before the split, that's not nearly enough time. That sends dirvers into a mad dash across three lanes of traffic to stay on the mainline highway. So, every overhead sign starting from the new one at Harrison that I mention above should clearly show that the right two lanes are "EXIT ONLY".

You've got the perfect solution.

[orulz]

The other half of the problem is that there are no "EXIT ONLY" signs until AFTER the lanes have already split.

Drove the highway again a couple days ago and actually I was not right.

There are four overhead sign bridges after you crest the hill. Two of them have the overhead diagrams (first and third) and the others (second and last) have the arrows over lanes and "exit only" for Wade Avenue.

I still think that every sign should clearly mark Wade Avenue as "Exit Only" but the situation is not quite as bad as I thought.

[architect77]

From WRAL's "Ask Anything" interview with head of NCDOT:

I-40/Wade Ave. Interchange and 3rd Lane Construction

"The department has recently started a project to widen 6.2 miles of I-40 from west of Wade Avenue to east of Jones Franklin Road. These improvements are aimed at reducing congestion and improving traffic flow through one of the most congested areas in the Triangle.

Work includes adding one 12-foot wide lane and one 12-foot wide shoulder in each direction of I-40, expanding the interstate from four to six lanes. The new shoulders are being built to the same depth as the roadway to allow for easier expansion of the highway in the future. The bridges carrying I-40 over Wade Avenue and U.S. 1/64 are also being widened so they will have the capacity for eight lanes in anticipation for future widening along this section of I-40.

At the eastbound I-40/Wade Avenue split, the highway is being expanded to provide three lanes for I-40 from the current two lanes. Signing adjustments are also going to made at the interchange and I-40 interstate crest pavement markers will be placed on the three I-40 lanes to further assist motorists with lane designations."

I-40 interstate crest pavement markers.....cool, of course they'll be in color also...i wonder if these "stamps" exist elsewhere around the country.

[orulz]

I-40 interstate crest pavement markers.....cool, of course they'll be in color also...i wonder if these "stamps" exist elsewhere around the country.

They exist in Asheville at an interchange that is about 5 times more confusing and difficult to navigate.

See it on Google Maps street view.

I wonder if this 6-lane treatment will even resolve the current eastbound traffic jams every evening? I think there are quite a few people out there who currently take alternate routes to avoid that traffic, counting myself among them. I work in southern RTP, and on days when I drive to work, if I leave between about 4:30 and 6:00 I take NC55-US64 home instead of I40. It takes longer than I40 when there's no traffic, but can save 10 minutes when 40 is stop and go.

The widening will probably bring some of those people back to 40, and fill up the new lanes in a hurry.