Triangle road & traffic thread

[Jones_]

With the addendum that Fairview Road occupied this same stretch from at least the 1920's until the 50's. The at grade Peace people are basically correct that this whole area operated as an at-grade grid south of Peace. The flood plain has always been the tricky part. I always wondered if an elevated Capital from 440 to downtown would work in some way (I surely haven't thought it all out) with a local grid maintained below it and very limited access to the elevated portion, say at Wade and an extended Whitaker Mill...

[orulz]

FYI, the NC147 extension to McCrimmon/Town Hall is shown in the Campo draft plan as being constructed sometime between 2020 and 2040 depending on funding situations and priorities. So looks like it hasn't been fully foisted off on Morrisville, but it's definitely a long way off.

[ctl]

Lots of good detail in that plan, thanks. I see the NCTA is looking to create "managed lanes" (i.e., dynamically priced toll lanes) on I-40 between the Wake/Durham line and the Wake/Johnston line. Also on 540 from 40 to US 64. I knew there was talk of tolling to widen the north arc of 540, but this is the first I've heard that tolls would be dynamic.

As for the McCrimmon extension of 147, here's the irony: NCTA is apparently telling Morrisville that if they want it earlier than 2030, Morrisville will have to pay... but the whole reason that the tolled 540 exists is because Cary/Apex/HS/F-V didn't want to wait for a free 540.

Appears that the final southeast arc of 540 won't be built for quite a while, even if everyone could agree on a routing tomorrow. There's also a huge ($336M) placeholder to widen 85 north of Durham -- expensive, because of new bridgework over Falls Lake -- but it's not scheduled for another 50 years.

[orulz]

Raleigh has published their prioritized list of streetscape projects. The top 10 are, in order:

 

1. Hillsborough Street, Rosemary to Gardner
2. Oberlin Road, Bedford to Clark
3. Hillsborough Street, Oberlin to Morgan
4. East Cabarrus Street, Wilmington to Chavis
5. New Bern Avenue/Edenton Street, Swain to Raleigh Blvd
6. Salisbury Street, Morgan to South
7. Wilmington Street, Morgan to South
8. Blue Ridge Road, Wade to Hillsborough
9. Blue Ridge Road, Hillsborough to Western
10. Avent Ferry Road,  Western to Gorman

I think I can clearly agree with the top 3. Those would seem to offer the greatest potential for ROI. Beyond that, I'm not really sure; I'm a little surprised that East Cabarrus scored so well, while the eastern segments of New Bern did not. I'm also not really clear on what needs to be done to Salisbury and Wilmington that merits such a high ranking. The streetscapes on those streets aren't great but they're not too bad either, at least by Raleigh's standards.

 

Something noticeably absent from the list is Peace Street West, which certainly deserves a position in the top 10 - is that one already funded?

 

It would have been nice if they'd considered Dawson, too, especially from Nash Square south. I get that it's not really a pedestrian hot spot, but man is it ugly.

 

Another thing that's missing is a method to pay for this and a schedule. Bonds, TIFs, BIDs, regular old Capital Improvement Plan? Some sort of dedicated revenue for this would be nice.

[Jones_]

Cabarrus probably got a look because of the middle school and  Carlton Place + Stone's warehouse project. I get the sense this a de-facto southern boundary in east downtown for the "nice" area as far as city priorities go. 

[RALNATIVE]

Raleigh ranked the best city for drivers:

 

http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/finance/2013/ten-best-cities-for-car-drivers/

[orulz]

Campo has a draft study posted on the subject of ramp metering. Ramp meters address the situation where a traffi light turns green and all of a sudden 20 cars come down a ramp and try to merge all at once, followed by a minute of no cars at all. In my observation, this is perhaps the biggest problem that turns traffic into "stop and go" during congestion in spite of the fact that the highway theoretically should have the capacity for smooth traffic flow.

 

The ramp metering spreads the merging cars out over time. This is long overdue. Most of the places identified for meters are on I-40 between RTP and Wade, plus a couple on the beltline. All in all, they identified 14 places where the cost-benefit ratio is greater than 1.

[NcSc74]

UGHHH ramp meters.  I remember when Vegas installed their ramp meters.  Nobody even cared if they were there.  It was business as usual and the majority of the drivers were California transplants so I know they were used to seeing them.  Not sure if ramp meters will catch on at all.  That money could be spent elsewhere.How about giving that study money to NCDOT on how to properly plan/predict traffic and vehicle counts when designing interchanges. 

[ctl]

Great idea in theory. In practice, it merely trains people to run red lights. I suppose a camera could be added, but that would just make people angrier. 

[orulz]

NCDOT prioritization results under the new funding formula is available here.

A few small Triangle area projects occupy many of the very top spots on the statewide tier.

One project that scored well is widening I-540 through North Raleigh to 8 lanes. What makes the project interesting is that they propose to convert the entire facility into a toll road, and doing so will fund 100% of the construction cost for the extra lane.

Another project that scored very well is managed lanes for I-40. This massive ($726 million) project ranked #13 on the statewide tier behind 12 projects each costing under $25 million.

[ctl]

Interesting that I-485 in south Charlotte would get "one express toll lane in each direction" whereas I-540 would be converted to 100% toll. I wonder how NCDOT will spin that one to Wake County. 

[Third Strike]

Interesting that I-485 in south Charlotte would get "one express toll lane in each direction" whereas I-540 would be converted to 100% toll. I wonder how NCDOT will spin that one to Wake County. 

 

I was always under the impression that the AASHTO was against transforming existing interstate roads, into full-on toll roads. Would they have to drop the interstate moniker, and simply rename the entire loop NC 540?

[ctl]

Believe they need fed permission to convert to a 100% toll road, whether they renumber it a state route or not. 

[DanRNC]

The roads program in NC seems pretty unsustainable. I heard they were also going to supplement the gas tax with a new "miles traveled" tax.

[DPK]

The roads program in NC seems pretty unsustainable. I heard they were also going to supplement the gas tax with a new "miles traveled" tax.

 

I just don't see how the "miles traveled" tax can work reliably.  Unless you install a gps transmitter on my vehicle, how can you appropriately say that the miles I traveled were all on public paved roads?  What if 90% of the year I am traveling around the country driving in other states, racking up thousands upon thousands of miles.  Those miles wouldn't have been in NC, how do you charge me for that? /rant

 

Here's an idea, stop paving so many roads darn everywhere and widening them to absurd widths.  Start investing in better public infrastructure and encouraging dense development instead of sprawl.

[InitialD]

Just raise the gas tax. Problem solved. In the short turn it will have the added bonus of encouraging people to buy less polluting, cleaner energy vehicles. Eventually, once a majority of vehicles are alt fuel, we will need some sort of milage tax, but that's at least a decade away.

[ctl]

Here's an idea, stop paving so many roads darn everywhere and widening them to absurd widths.  Start investing in better public infrastructure and encouraging dense development instead of sprawl.

 

Not that simple. There are three types of roads in the program:

• Improvements to roads in small-town and rural NC. This is an economic development initiative. It's the rationale for four-laning the entirety of US 17, for example.
• Improvements to core highways in the national system. Widening I-85 between Concord and Salisbury falls into this category; it hasn't been touched since it was built 50 years ago, and it is functionally obsolete on the basis of interstate traffic alone. I-95 is in the same bucket.
• Urban highways where you might have a point. But urban residents are a long, long way from having the political clout to shift NCDOT funds from highways to transit. 

[Spatula]

A miles traveled tax punishes people who go on road trips in their hybrid, relative to people who go on long road trips in their SUV. At the same time a gas tax is somewhat regressive, punishing people who can't afford newer, more expensive cars that will end up having with better mileage.

 

There are pros and cons with either. I'm actually somewhat okay with combining both methods. The miles traveled tax would be a more concrete incentive to live closer to where you work and avoid driving in general, rather than an incentive to just get a cleaner car. So the latter does incentivize urbanity (although it probably does less for the environment).

[Euphorius]

We would be in a much better situation if we hadn't spent untold millions on paving every go nowhere dirt road in the whole state. Oh well. At least that program is over. 

[Jones_]

We would be in a much better situation if we hadn't spent untold millions on paving every go nowhere dirt road in the whole state. Oh well. At least that program is over. 

If I remember correctly that was tied to school bus routes, but that was so long ago (late 80's, early 90's) I'm not totally sure. 

[ctl]

Portions of at least two NC state highways (90 and 197) are still unpaved, or were at last report. More info about the overall program at http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/05/27/2091989/north-carolina-seeks-to-pave-its.html. The program dates to 1989 when the composition of the General Assembly, in terms of rural vs urban representation, reflected the 1980 census... much different than the 2010 census. 

[Euphorius]

Looks like Wake county will be getting lots of needed road improvements in the next decade.

 

 http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/05/14/3860902/wake-county-scores-well-in-ncdots.html

[RALNATIVE]

One of the more important improvements is:

 

• Convert Capital Boulevard (U.S. 1) to a freeway from I-540 north to N.C. 98. $205 million. 2023.

 

I would argue that they should consider extending the freeway from downtown, rather than I-540.

[Jones_]

I commuted to NC State from Wake Forest for several years and thought it over a lot. I think there are just too many curb cuts to get it in there between 440 and 540. Though you could add a second deck....not pretty but functionally I think it would be well used. There are several unfinished planned connections adjacent to to Capital that would help a little such as Stony Brook, Pine Knoll and Lake Ridge punch throughs that might enable some longer green light times especially at peak. It almost looks like there was a plan to have a freeway with local traffic parallels that was abandoned, which is essentially what is now planned for north of 540. 

[Third Strike]

Looks like NC-147 and the new East End Connector will be labeled as I-885:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_Highway_147#Interstate_885

http://dotw-xfer01.dot.state.nc.us/dsplan/2014%20Highway%20Letting/10-21-14/Plans%20and%20Proposals/Durham%20U-0071%20C203394/Roadway/Part%20III/ (Click on Signing)