Meet Little Rock, Arkansas

[skirby]

I believe fear is a motivator for some parents who enroll their children in private school in Pulaski County. Some of the fear is based in prejudice, both racial and socio-economic class. Another factor that I believe motivates some parents is their perception that, if I am paying money for the education then it must be good. With Catholic and Mount St. Marys there was, in my day, a belief that it was a good place for students to learn discipline. I would not doubt it, if that perception still exists. Religion also plays a role somewhere in the decision-making.

What is the academic arguement for attending private school in Pulaski County? It took all the private schools in Pulaski County to equal the academic success of Little Rock Central's 19 National Merit Semi-finalist. How does a private school student have a 'better shot' when the private schools have not figured out how to consistently outperform the public schools? I contend that it is not the private school giving 'your average middle of the road kid' a better shot at going to a good college, it is the financial achievement/sacrifice of the parents.

From today's Artimes...

It was a good year for public schools in Pulaski County this year, if your measure is National Merit Scholarship semi-finalists. The public schools produced 28 this year, compared with 20 last year, while private schools held steady at 19.

Little Rock Central High again led the state with 19, followed by Fayetteville and the Arkansas School for Mathematics, Sciences and the Arts in Hot Springs at 16; Fort Smith Southside with 14, and Cabot High with 12.

In Pulaski County, after Central, came Pulaski Academy with 6; ParkviewMagnet and Episcopal Collegiate with 4; Pulaski Mills and Little Rock Christian with 3; North Little Rock, Catholic and Central Arkansas Christian with 2, and one each at Lutheran and Mount St. Mary. There were two home-schooled semi-finalists from Pulaski County, among six statewide.

In all Pulaski produced 49 of the state

[johnnydr87]

Comparing the numbers between public and private schools is like comparing apples to oranges. If you added the high school attendance in private schools in Pulaski County I don't know if they would even match Central's enrollment. For example Episcopal Collegiate has and enrollment of 382 students in 6th through 12th grade. Central has an enrollment of 2422 in grades 9 through 11. Pulaski Academy has around 1300 in PreK through 12th. Parkview has an enrollment of 1129 in 9 through 12. Both Parkview and Episcopal had 4 semi-finalists but Parkview has 800 to 900 more students.

The correct way to campare would be to give the number of semi-finalists per number of students. Bentonville has around 3000 so they had 1 per 600. Central would have 1 per 142. Parkview would have 1 per 282. Episcopal would have 1 per 65. I do not know the enrollment for ASMSA but I'm sure they would come out on top of any school in the state.

ASMSA class of '07 has less than 100 people. Better than 1 per 8, basically. Probably around 1 per 6 or 7.

Anyways, the point for public schools is that students with similar economic backgrounds, and some with even worse backgrounds, perform at or higher than the level of private school students.

[skirby]

ASMSA class of '07 has less than 100 people. Better than 1 per 8, basically. Probably around 1 per 6 or 7.

Anyways, the point for public schools is that students with similar economic backgrounds, and some with even worse backgrounds, perform at or higher than the level of private school students.

I don't know how you can prove that statement about public vs. private schools. How do you explain the lack of semi-finalists in the Springdale School District? I think one could make the point that some public schools do a better job but others do not. I believe you attend Washington University. Is that not a private university? If public schools do such a good job then why do you go to a private one?

[turboturtle]

I don't know how you can prove that statement about public vs. private schools. How do you explain the lack of semi-finalists in the Springdale School District? I think one could make the point that some public schools do a better job but others do not. I believe you attend Washington University. Is that not a private university? If public schools do such a good job then why do you go to a private one?

Comparing public and private high schools is not apples and oranges. This contoversy exists because the goal of these institutions is the same; certify a student's level of education attained with a high school diploma and prepare him/her for higher education. To this end, the acadmic metrics that are available every year about the performance of public and private schools in Pulaski County, clearly indicates that the public school outperform the private schools.

The controversy between public and private Universities is almost non-existent. While attending high school in Arkansas is legislated, attending college is not. Public high schools are free. Public universities are not.

[skirby]

Comparing public and private high schools is not apples and oranges. This contoversy exists because the goal of these institutions is the same; certify a student's level of education attained with a high school diploma and prepare him/her for higher education. To this end, the acadmic metrics that are available every year about the performance of public and private schools in Pulaski County, clearly indicates that the public school outperform the private schools.

The controversy between public and private Universities is almost non-existent. While attending high school in Arkansas is legislated, attending college is not. Public high schools are free. Public universities are not.

Why is the controversy between public and private universities almost non-existent? Maybe the reason is that private universities have deveploed in the same time period as public ones. Private high schools for the most part have only existed during the last 30 years or so. Thirty years ago Catholic did exist but I do not think the others did. The private schools are the new kids on the block and are taking students away from the public schools. The public schools did not do their jobs otherwise the private schools would not have expanded as much as they have. Again compare the amount of students not the schools. I would say Central does a good job but can you say that about Springdale?

[Aporkalypse]

Why is the controversy between public and private universities almost non-existent? Maybe the reason is that private universities have deveploed in the same time period as public ones. Private high schools for the most part have only existed during the last 30 years or so. Thirty years ago Catholic did exist but I do not think the others did. The private schools are the new kids on the block and are taking students away from the public schools. The public schools did not do their jobs otherwise the private schools would not have expanded as much as they have. Again compare the amount of students not the schools. I would say Central does a good job but can you say that about Springdale?

Catholic has been around since the 1920s and Mt St Mary's since the 1860s, I think. The rest all started after 1970. Even the two older schools saw enrollment boom around that time, though.

A couple of thoughts on this thread.

With all due respect to johnnydr, ASMS is impossible to compare because students there are highly selected. Would many if not all of these kids been semifinalists at Central or Fayetteville as well? Almost certainly. Central, Fayetteville and the private schools don't have the luxury of screening applicants. In fact, the average student at Central would surely last only a few weeks at ASMS.

Looking at Nat'l Merit Semifinalists tells you little about the school aside from how many "stars" it puts out. Is the Springdale school district, with two large high schools and no semifinalists a "bad" district? No, it's not. In fact if you look at median test scores, etc it is well above average and better than Central.

Discipline does play a role in choosing private schools over public ones. More importantly, the vast majority of private and public students won't be semifinalists regardless of where they go to school. However, kids at private schools that are average intellectually seem to get better test scores and are better prepared for college because they attended schools like PA or Catholic than they would've been if they had been in the "regular" classes at Central or elsewhere in the LRSD. The exception teachers get involved in Honors or AP courses and train the upper tier of kids at places like Central. While that sends a lot of kids to the Ivy League and similar schools, it does little to help your average kids in "regular" classes.

If I had a kid that cremed the PSAT and he wanted to go to Central I'd be all for it. If he was entirely average I'd vastly prefer him to be in private school. There are a lot of average students that end up being so well prepared for college coming out of a school like PA or Catholic that they coast through the UA or similar schools.

[turboturtle]

Why is the controversy between public and private universities almost non-existent? Maybe the reason is that private universities have deveploed in the same time period as public ones. Private high schools for the most part have only existed during the last 30 years or so. Thirty years ago Catholic did exist but I do not think the others did. The private schools are the new kids on the block and are taking students away from the public schools. The public schools did not do their jobs otherwise the private schools would not have expanded as much as they have. Again compare the amount of students not the schools. I would say Central does a good job but can you say that about Springdale?

I really can't speak to your Springdale question as I know nothing about the school other than it is public. I also agree with your prior statement that some schools perform better than others. Also, it is not just Central, Park View is performing well. Hall is poo. But, this is in part due to the cannibalization of enrollment at Hall caused by the increased enrollment in private schools.

To compare the amount of the student we need data that I don't have. The numbers you used earlier would make an inaccurte comparison simply because only a subset of the populations are eligible for National Merit Semifinalist. I am not sure how to get the data from the private schools.

Yes, with the exception of Catholic and St Marys, most of the private schools are young. They are also examples of private high schools that have not outperformed public high schools in academics.

[turboturtle]

Discipline does play a role in choosing private schools over public ones. More importantly, the vast majority of private and public students won't be semifinalists regardless of where they go to school. However, kids at private schools that are average intellectually seem to get better test scores and are better prepared for college because they attended schools like PA or Catholic than they would've been if they had been in the "regular" classes at Central or elsewhere in the LRSD. The exception teachers get involved in Honors or AP courses and train the upper tier of kids at places like Central. While that sends a lot of kids to the Ivy League and similar schools, it does little to help your average kids in "regular" classes.

If I had a kid that cremed the PSAT and he wanted to go to Central I'd be all for it. If he was entirely average I'd vastly prefer him to be in private school. There are a lot of average students that end up being so well prepared for college coming out of a school like PA or Catholic that they coast through the UA or similar schools.

Best argument I have heard for selecting a private school yet! Still, I would have to select Central for its exposure to diversity over the private schools. Also, their reputation of excellence would still help the average student on a college admission app.

[skirby]

Comparing public and private high schools is not apples and oranges. This contoversy exists because the goal of these institutions is the same; certify a student's level of education attained with a high school diploma and prepare him/her for higher education. To this end, the acadmic metrics that are available every year about the performance of public and private schools in Pulaski County, clearly indicates that the public school outperform the private schools.

The controversy between public and private Universities is almost non-existent. While attending high school in Arkansas is legislated, attending college is not. Public high schools are free. Public universities are not.

I think you need to think about your statement that public high schools are free. The state spends half it's budget on general education in this state. The taxpayer also funds them through local and federal taxes. The parents of a private school not only have to pay for that but also the public schools. Everyone in the state has to pay. They are not free. Even if you don't use it you have to pay for it. This is the problem I have with public schools. They think it is a big deal they might be doing better than private schools. Maybe they should concern themselves with why they are not doing a better job. The taxpayers of this state should demand more.

[johnnydr87]

Catholic has been around since the 1920s and Mt St Mary's since the 1860s, I think. The rest all started after 1970. Even the two older schools saw enrollment boom around that time, though.

A couple of thoughts on this thread.

With all due respect to johnnydr, ASMS is impossible to compare because students there are highly selected. Would many if not all of these kids been semifinalists at Central or Fayetteville as well? Almost certainly. Central, Fayetteville and the private schools don't have the luxury of screening applicants. In fact, the average student at Central would surely last only a few weeks at ASMS.

Looking at Nat'l Merit Semifinalists tells you little about the school aside from how many "stars" it puts out. Is the Springdale school district, with two large high schools and no semifinalists a "bad" district? No, it's not. In fact if you look at median test scores, etc it is well above average and better than Central.

Discipline does play a role in choosing private schools over public ones. More importantly, the vast majority of private and public students won't be semifinalists regardless of where they go to school. However, kids at private schools that are average intellectually seem to get better test scores and are better prepared for college because they attended schools like PA or Catholic than they would've been if they had been in the "regular" classes at Central or elsewhere in the LRSD. The exception teachers get involved in Honors or AP courses and train the upper tier of kids at places like Central. While that sends a lot of kids to the Ivy League and similar schools, it does little to help your average kids in "regular" classes.

If I had a kid that cremed the PSAT and he wanted to go to Central I'd be all for it. If he was entirely average I'd vastly prefer him to be in private school. There are a lot of average students that end up being so well prepared for college coming out of a school like PA or Catholic that they coast through the UA or similar schools.

A question about ASMSA enrollment was asked. I replied.

Earlier, Central was declared to be the best school for bright students. I rebutted.

That's the extent of my ASMSA conversation.

[turboturtle]

I think you need to think about your statement that public high schools are free. The state spends half it's budget on general education in this state. The taxpayer also funds them through local and federal taxes. The parents of a private school not only have to pay for that but also the public schools. Everyone in the state has to pay. They are not free. Even if you don't use it you have to pay for it. This is the problem I have with public schools. They think it is a big deal they might be doing better than private schools. Maybe they should concern themselves with why they are not doing a better job. The taxpayers of this state should demand more.

Public high school does not require tuition to be admitted. Private high school requires tuition. I am very comfortable with my statement that public high schools are free. You will find no sympathy from me for the parents of private school students who have to pay and SHOULD pay their taxes.

I agree that the taxpayers of the state should demand more. Apork pointed-out the disparity between regular and honors classes at a school like Central. This stuck a cord with me because I was in Honors English my sophomore year, Regular English my Junior year, and Honors English my Senior year. More stratification in levels of teaching could improve performance of some of those who under-served or 'lost' in the regular courses.

I'd love to hear other's suggestions on improving public schools. The public schools are critical to successful economic development of Central Arkansas. The are hundreds of average, above-average, and brilliant minds that cannot afford private school even if it did give them a better shot at going to college. The state is obligated to provide a high quality education. It is the retention of these minds (public and private) in our community after going to college seems to me the bigger issue.

[Aporkalypse]

A question about ASMSA enrollment was asked. I replied.

Earlier, Central was declared to be the best school for bright students. I rebutted.

That's the extent of my ASMSA conversation.

Relax. If you read what I wrote there it couldn't be construed as anything but a compliment.

[johnnydr87]

With all due respect to johnnydr, ASMS is impossible to compare because students there are highly selected.

I saw that. I was merely replying to this statement.

Here's my response in different words:

I wasn't saying ASMSA is comparable. The only times I talked about ASMSA was when I was replying to skirby's question on ASMSA enrollment....and when you said Central was the best school for bright students.

[Aporkalypse]

Public high school does not require tuition to be admitted. Private high school requires tuition. I am very comfortable with my statement that public high schools are free. You will find no sympathy from me for the parents of private school students who have to pay and SHOULD pay their taxes.

I agree that the taxpayers of the state should demand more. Apork pointed-out the disparity between regular and honors classes at a school like Central. This stuck a cord with me because I was in Honors English my sophomore year, Regular English my Junior year, and Honors English my Senior year. More stratification in levels of teaching could improve performance of some of those who under-served or 'lost' in the regular courses.

I'd love to hear other's suggestions on improving public schools. The public schools are critical to successful economic development of Central Arkansas. The are hundreds of average, above-average, and brilliant minds that cannot afford private school even if it did give them a better shot at going to college. The state is obligated to provide a high quality education. It is the retention of these minds (public and private) in our community after going to college seems to me the bigger issue.

Like you, I'm against vouchers and tax credits. If you choose not to use the public system and pay for a private one, you have the means to help support the public schools. Good public schools pay off in a lot of ways - better community standard of living, lower crime, etc. You reap some rewards even if your kids go elsewhere.

Now, as far as improving the LR area public schools I'm not sure what can be done. I think they do a great job of educating brilliant kids but the kids in regular classes are often left behind and the kids in remedial classes certainly are.

I really like the idea (skirby's?) of a large private foundation that gives scholarships to kids from LR public schools. I think it would really encourage academic excellence in those schools if kids knew that they were preparing for college and had a realistic shot to get there even if they couldn't muster high ACT scores. I think that would bring a lot of the suburban kids back into city schools and maybe some private school ones as well.

[Aporkalypse]

I saw that. I was merely replying to this statement.

Here's my response in different words:

I wasn't saying ASMSA is comparable. The only times I talked about ASMSA was when I was replying to skirby's question on ASMSA enrollment....and when you said Central was the best school for bright students.

When I said that I was talking about in Little Rock (that was implied). I would never consider having my son leave and go to school elsewhere, so in my mind I wasn't including ASMS in the discussion. That said, I think you could argue either way regarding Central or ASMS for the top tier of students, at least partially depending on their career path.

[Aporkalypse]

Some bad news - Deluxe Video has decided to close its 500-person video manufacturing facility off of I-440 in NLR at Faulkner Lake Road by March. At one point the facility employed 750 but was slow to make the VHS to DVD transition. Deluxe is seeking other buyers for the facility.

[turboturtle]

Our official nickname is "The Rock."

http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog...official_1.aspx

I've used the nickname prior to today. It fits and is simple. Should be easy to incorporate into promotional material.

[Aporkalypse]

Our official nickname is "The Rock."

http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog...official_1.aspx

I've used the nickname prior to today. It fits and is simple. Should be easy to incorporate into promotional material.

They're also going to start using "Established 1722" on most of the official stuff.

[turboturtle]

They're also going to start using "Established 1722" on most of the official stuff.

Aptly named....

http://www.raidtherock.com/info.html

[Aporkalypse]

Sounds like Maumelle, North Little Rock and Sherwood have joined Little Rock in signing up for IPTV via AT&T.

I wonder how widespread this will become.

[Aporkalypse]

The Little Rock School District has topped its 1988 enrollment record, that being the year it added a number of schools previously in the Pulaski Co school district. Both black and white enrollments were slightly down and the gain came from Hispanic, Asian and American Indian students.

I don't know what to make of this but I think it backs the assertion that the Hispanic population is growing more than the census estimated and since the LR private schools are still growing in enrollment as well that the city is probably growing a lot more than we realize.

[Aporkalypse]

It looks like Mark Stodola will be the first new LR mayor in a very long time, getting 48% of the vote in a 4-way race. I think everyone expected this to go to a runoff between him and Graves, so this is somewhat surprising.

I'm glad, I think his strong anti-crime agenda and plans for midtown redevelopment are exactly what the city needs. He has the potential to be a strong mayor along the lines of Patrick Henry Hays.

[Aporkalypse]

Interesting things are going on at Alltel. Since splitting off from its wireline business, Windstream, it now is pulling in massive profits. It's a big target for investors and there are lots of rumors about mergers and buyout by private investors or possibly acquisition of smaller companies by Alltel.

I just hope Alltel never packs up and moves elsewhere, that would have a horrible affect on the city and region.

Also, Fidelity Information Services, which acquired Alltel's IT division based in West LR, is possibly looking to move its Memphis operations to LR as well to consolidate. This would be in the office park at Cantrell and I-430 where Windstream has its corporate HQs as well.