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ChiefJoJo

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While watching Agenda Charlotte on TV 16 tonight...I heard Charlotte Mayor Pat McCrory say that Charlotte has spent $200M on STATE road projects in Mecklenburg County simply because they could not wait for NCDOT to build them.

The Mayor of Concord, Scott Pagent, was also on the show and said that Concord has also spent millions of dollars on NCDOT projects to speed them up.

Both of the mayors thought that the NCDOT Equity Formula was totally screwed up and are lobbying the Governor and Legislature to chage it so it takes congestion into consideration.

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It seems to me that there is good and bad here. The good is that you get better roads faster. The bad is that if the DOT knows that Charlotte/Mecklenburg and its outlying areas will pay for their own roads, they might continue shafting the county for money. I can't imagine that Charlotte has that kind of money to throw around. Maybe I'm wrong though.

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Its obvious to me that something is very wrong with road building in NC. And most of it is political. The best roads in the Charlotte metro are in York county across the state line in SC. One drive down I-77 and it is immediately obvious, but all of the secondary roads are much better there as well.

The NCDOT is a creature of politics and I am not sure that beating up directly on the organization is the way to fix it. The problem is higher upstream.

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I understand a lot of the comments here, and it's not surprising given the number of people who live in Clt and are on a forum called UrbanPlanet. I know the funding formulas don't seem to make sense, but also remember that everyone wants their own projects and thinks they don't get enough money for them--including rural areas who typically are more interested in economic development.

Take a step back and realize that how your DOT dollars are spent is largely determined by the Board of Transportation, who are from each area of the state and are generally appointed by the Governor. This is a political process, and as with politics, it doesn't always make sense. Please also take your Charlotte-centric hat off for a minute, and think of the difficulty of providing for all areas of the state as fairly as possible (considering that nobody thinks they get enough), given the political process we have, the financial shortfalls we have, and given the rising construction costs we have (due to rising oil prices). It's an unwinnable situation at the moment.

Here is the hypcrocisy...NCDOT thinks its ok to "pay back" the rural areas that have "loaned" the money to build roads...but the thought never crossed their mind of "paying back" the urban localities that have funded NCDOT projects with LOCAL taxes.

Not to undermine what Charlotte has done, but this is done all the time in cities. McCrory is just as guilty of using politics and numbers to his own advantage as anyone else in this case. The problem lies in the funding formulas for roads which is determined by lawmakers, not NCDOT staff. He is barking up the wrong tree-- this must be done through the legislature.

wow, I didn't know it was that bad. That really pisses me off. They are cutting funding?!!?!? Why the heck would they do that?! Let us have the lottery pay for Charlotte roads.

Funding is not being "cut" per se--NCDOT is experiencing shortfalls due to rising construction costs for projects (the price of steel is up 30% in about the last year) and money is being reallocated to other areas that "lent" it to the metros while the rural projects waited for approval. By law, it must be paid back. If you want change, change the law. BTW, Clt could always raise local taxes for roads as well, just as they did for CATS.

Its obvious to me that something is very wrong with road building in NC. And most of it is political...  The NCDOT is a creature of politics and I am not sure that beating up directly on the organization is the way to fix it. The problem is higher upstream.

Yes, I agree, and I would also add, with any political process, the empowered individual citizen or a group of them, have as much power to change it as anyone, so instead of complaining about it on a msg board, if you want real change be proactive and contact your state rep, mayor, or start a new organization to lobby the state... do something that will affect change. A small group of committed citizens is indeed a very powerful force.

McCrory made the point that it is very political...thats why he has joined up with all the other urban mayors in the State to lobby the Governor and the Legislature to change the formula they use to divy up highway funds.

I've met McCrory, and he seems like a very proactive mayor, and one who can get what he wants. Joining witht he urban mayors is a good step, and the right way to go about the issue, rather than try to discredit NCDOT. This is an urban vs. rural fight, congestion vs. economic development, etc... it's a real philosphical issue at it's core.

Don't take anything personally here--I am simply trying to add a different informed perspective to this difficult conversation.

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ChiefJojo, I commend you on being thick skinned enough to come here and provide us with thoughts from the otherside and none of this is meant to be directed to any one person working hard in the NCDOT. One of the reasons that we created this messageboard was hopefully make it possible for civil dialogs such as this to take place with all interested parties. And if it spur's people on to get politically involved as you suggest even better.

This is a very tough "audience" here but most people who post on this site are really interested in making NC a better place for everyone including the 2 Charlotte forumers who started UrbanPlanet.

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Chief, thanks for all the great info.

Two questions:

1. Why is taking so long to get the lights working on the I-277 section of Brookshire Frwy. I've written three emails (all were responded to with "fixed within the next two months) over the past three years about how dangerous it is. Three stories on local TV news have been done about it. Still nothing. What IS the real story as to why the lights are out? Are they ever going to come back on?

2. When is the DOT going to replace the I-85 Yadkin River bridge at Spencer. I am amazed this hasn't been a priortiy project. It's narrow, has curves at both ends, and has a left exit/on ramp with US-70. Meanwhile, construction continues on widening 85 to eight lanes through Salisbury and will create a bottle neck for 10 miles between the bridge and the I-85/US -52 split. Wouldn't it have made more sense to rebuild the bridge and widen that 10 mile section first?

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Cheif JoJo, thanks for your response...I realize that NCDOT has it's hand's largely tied by the Governor and the Legislature.

I just wish we could take politics out of road building and make it truly on a needs basis.

One last point regarding the urban vs. rural...it is definately that. The current equity formula was developed back in the 80s....the state has become much more urban since then. Also making roads better is an economic development issue no matter where you build the road. The formula needs to take into consideration the environment and congestion...which it currently doesn't. I also don't think that DOT districts are drawn up right. As monsoon said it is very silly for the DOT office overseeing Charlotte to be in Albemarle.

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  • 1 month later...

Bringing back an old thread from the dead! This isn't specifically directed at NCDOT, however. Just a general transportation question.

Have you heard of a proposal to resign US 64 out of Raleigh as an interstate highway? Once the Knightdale Bypass is done, it'll be interstate-grade freeway from I-440 all the way to Rocky Mount, and CAMPO wants to sign that segment it as a 3 digit spur interstate from I-95 (I-395 for example.) That gives Raleigh a direct interstate connection to the main highway backbone up the eastern seaboard. Check item 7 on CAMPO's May 18 agenda

The entire US 64 freeway alignment is part of "High Priority Corridor 13" that will eventually connect Norfolk to Raleigh through Elizabeth City. Who knows how they'll sign that one when it's done - imagine all the confusion with I-64 in Norfolk and US 64 in northeastern NC...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Why is it that the NCDOT can't build substantial highways to meet the future traffic needs of the state. For example about a year ago the DOT opened a stretch of I-485 from US 74 to 24/27 in Charlotte and I drove it and there were not that many cars on it but less than a year later I drove it and there are daily traffic jams and parking lots (all day long). Now the NCDOT is proposing to widen this stretch or highway from the current 2 lanes to 4 lanes each way and delay the construction of the northern part of the loop till at least 2009. :unsure:

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One part of the problem is that DoT doesn't control land use immediately adjacent to their exit ramps, and thus their 'planning' is either optimistically speculative or reactionary. A simple crossroads today, becomes a major activity node tomorrow...

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One part of the problem is that DoT doesn't control land use immediately adjacent to their exit ramps, and thus their 'planning' is either optimistically speculative or reactionary.  A simple crossroads today, becomes a major activity node tomorrow...

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Why are North Carolina's urban interstates so poorly lit, especially in the Triangle?

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Why are North Carolina's urban interstates so poorly lit, especially in the Triangle?

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This was asked and answered earlier in the thread... see this post.

The gist is that when a highway only experiences heavy traffic during the day (rush hour commutes, etc) then lighting is not deemed necessary. Drive I-40 through Raleigh at midnight and it's basically deserted, so why bother ligting it? The same is true for I-440 and I-540.

I-85, the other hand, has a significant amount of late night truck traffic, and therefore has lighting through much of the state.

I understand that there is a lot of truck traffic on I-95 as well, but I driven on it perhaps twice in my lifetime and I can't remember whether it has lighting or not.

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Why are North Carolina's urban interstates so poorly lit, especially in the Triangle?

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Why bother spending the money for lighting when the state can't seem to change the bulbs once they've burned out? You end up with a dark freeway anyway.

Here in Charlotte, the Brookshire Freeway has been dark for nearly three years. There have been four tv news stories, two articles in the newspaper, and still, nothing. Here's a major freeway traveling through the center of the State's largest city and it's pitch black at night. The State blames Duke Power. Duke Power blames the state. Meanwhile, we taxpayers drive in the dark.

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Speaking of the Brookshire, between the Davidson overpass and Brevard underpass, there was a damaged median barrier that when unrepaired for months, maybe even a year, a simple repair and it took that long. NCDOT is very lacking in repairworks and maintances.

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Why bother spending the money for lighting when the state can't seem to change the bulbs once they've burned out?  You end up with a dark freeway anyway.

Here in Charlotte, the Brookshire Freeway has been dark for nearly three years.  There have been four tv news stories, two articles in the newspaper, and still, nothing.  Here's a major freeway traveling through the center of the State's largest city and it's pitch black at night.  The State blames Duke Power.  Duke Power blames the state.  Meanwhile, we taxpayers drive in the dark.

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I like not having the street lights...makes it seem much more natural. Light pollution is bad.

You can see the cars because they have lights on them.

Street lights need to be on streets where there is a lot of pedestrian and bicycle traffic, but not necessarily interstates.

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I like not having the street lights...makes it seem much more natural.  Light pollution is bad.

You can see the cars because they have lights on them.

Street lights need to be on streets where there is a lot of pedestrian and bicycle traffic, but not necessarily interstates.

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That's fine with me too - as long as the stripes are freshly painted and reflectors are still intact. Once the stripes are a couple years old, then it becomes a painful chore to drive because you can't see the lane markers every time some jerk drives by with his brights on because he thinks the median is wide enough so that it doesn't matter.

This applies to all roads, not just interstates, but interstates are particularly bad since the speeds are higher.

NCDOT could turn ALL of the highway lights on the interstate for all I care, if they instead decided to repaint the lines or replace the reflectors twice as often as they do now.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I like not having the street lights...makes it seem much more natural.  Light pollution is bad.

You can see the cars because they have lights on them.

Street lights need to be on streets where there is a lot of pedestrian and bicycle traffic, but not necessarily interstates.

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Brookshire is different. It's elevated, has odd on and off ramps, and it's virtually impossible to see anything when it rains.

You've lost me on how not having street lights on a major freeway makes it seem "much more natural". There is nothing natural about a controlled access freeway in the middle of a large city.

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The lack of freeway lights causes fatigue in most drivers because their eyes are constantly having to adjust to the bright headlights versus the dark surroundings. Freeway lighting make is possible to see the road and any hazards in the way. This is especially important on a busy urban freeway.

Ever tried to see the stars in the sky at night if you have a light shining in your face?

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Will at least one of the new interstates(73/74) have a spur or link to Charlotte. It seems to me their routes don't make a lot of sense. Also what is the main purpose of them. I looked at the corridor planning and it is not very cohesive. Who exactly will benefit from them.

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Why bother spending the money for lighting when the state can't seem to change the bulbs once they've burned out?  You end up with a dark freeway anyway.

Here in Charlotte, the Brookshire Freeway has been dark for nearly three years.  There have been four tv news stories, two articles in the newspaper, and still, nothing.  Here's a major freeway traveling through the center of the State's largest city and it's pitch black at night.  The State blames Duke Power.  Duke Power blames the state.  Meanwhile, we taxpayers drive in the dark.

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I'll check into it ...

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