Charlotte Greenways and Trails

[CM2424]

Thanks for this thread - great stuff!  The city and county should be spending so much more $ and time to connect all of this.  We have so many great pieces in place, but without true connectivity that lets people ride their bike to work or take their kids to a game uptown on a truly protected path, these will remain underutilized.  Once connected, the trail network will be amazing for the health, traffic, enjoyment, and brand of Charlotte.     I just don’t see any real urgency.  For example, it’s going to take 2 years just to update one busy section along Kings Road that connects Freedom Park and Uptown.  It only took 2 years to build the Eiffel Tower.  

[KJHburg]

@cmwilson24to answer your question about commutability on the greenways. The system will be one of the finest in the country ONCE it is all connected.  Raleigh and Cary's greenway system is all connected and is just fantastic and contributes to their livability rankings.  Of the existing greenways that I think currently could be commuter corridors for walkers and bicyclists would be these 3:  Little Sugar Creek greenway north of uptown to Belmont, Villa Heights allowing easy access to uptown employment centers.  Likewise southbound but with 2 sections under construction a little more difficult.  The Irwin Creek greenway from Seversville, Wesley Heights allow easy access to uptown.  The best suburban greenway that could be a commuter corridor is Mallard Creek Greenway.  It links residential areas north of University Research Park through the UR Park to UNCC campus.  The greenway goes by the corporate campuses of Centene and TIAA both big employers. And links up well to the UNCC campus via Toby Creek Greenway.  

Many of the other greenways have a NE to SW orientation due to the way the creeks flow across the county.  

Here is Raleigh's map and Cary's is just as extensive too.

https://cityofraleigh0drupal.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/drupal-prod/COR24/raleigh-greenway-map.pdf

 

[KJHburg]

And speaking of greenways I did one of my missing links today.  The McAlpine Greenway between Monroe Rd and Sardis Rd having already walked the newer stretch from Sardis to Providence.

I call this one the south Charlotte wildlife corridor as I have seen deer both times on both sections including today.   One of many reasons these greenways are important is flood control.  You can tell how high the water levels got on the bridge basically up to the level of the bridges meaning the creeks rose 10-15 feet in the recent rains.  Lots of muds on the bridges today. 

Notice this interesting restaurant right off the greenway food from Nepal and Thailand off Monroe Rd. 

as the sun came fully out the greenway traffic literally double from when I started and it was cloudy. 

[elrodvt]

@KJHburgthanks for all the reviews, good stuff!

How did you conclude that it'll be one of the best systems in the country when completed? Not arguing mostly wonder what criteria was used.

 

Never mind! Missed the links. Thanks.

Edited April 8, 2022 by elrodvt

[KJHburg]

Just now, elrodvt said:

@KJHburgthanks for all the reviews, good stuff!

How did you conclude that it'll be one of the best systems in the country when completed? Not arguing mostly wonder what criteria was used.

Because the master plan and all the connectivity they plan.  It is very extensive.  The Cross Charlotte Trail and the link to the other counties with the Carolina Thread Trail making it a regional network.  Here is the master plan

https://www.mecknc.gov/ParkandRec/CapitalProjects/PlannedGreenways/SiteAssets/Pages/default/Mecklenburg County Park and Recreation Greenways Map Aug. 2021.pdf

I do believe what I have seen in other places the plans here if fulfilled will make it one of the best.  

[JHart]

Hard disagree on our connected greenways, especially when used for commuting. Our current greenway system is again a vanity project for South Charlotte with very little viability for commuters to Uptown. Stewart Creek barely runs a half mile outside of Uptown, with limited entry points from neighborhoods. We have no connection anywhere on the East side of Charlotte. North side is getting a little traction, but I dare anyone to try and bike across the Matheson bridge and tell me that is a legitimate commuter route. 

Inside of Uptown, there are hardly any options besides biking on the street which anyone who has ridden here can attest is dicey at best with our drivers and their attitudes towards bikes. The newly completed 6th Street Cycle Track which is the only protected lane through Uptown (Rail Trail is basically unusable for bicycle commuting due to station design) isn't even connected to the Little Sugar Creek. I guess they consider crossing 2 major streets using pedestrian signals and crosswalks (by design according to CoC) and then across 7th Street is somewhat connected... 

I love our Greenways, I'm on them almost everyday. But we are very much an extremely far stretch away from best in the country. If there was funding for some of the additional proposed routes on their map I could at least say they are working on it, but the lack of funding and resistance for even the XClt Trail which we are still years away from even UNCC connection to Little Sugar Creek makes me doubtful of any major changes in the next several years.  

[InSouthPark]

1 hour ago, JHart said:

Hard disagree on our connected greenways, especially when used for commuting. Our current greenway system is again a vanity project for South Charlotte with very little viability for commuters to Uptown. Stewart Creek barely runs a half mile outside of Uptown, with limited entry points from neighborhoods. We have no connection anywhere on the East side of Charlotte. North side is getting a little traction, but I dare anyone to try and bike across the Matheson bridge and tell me that is a legitimate commuter route. 

Inside of Uptown, there are hardly any options besides biking on the street which anyone who has ridden here can attest is dicey at best with our drivers and their attitudes towards bikes. The newly completed 6th Street Cycle Track which is the only protected lane through Uptown (Rail Trail is basically unusable for bicycle commuting due to station design) isn't even connected to the Little Sugar Creek. I guess they consider crossing 2 major streets using pedestrian signals and crosswalks (by design according to CoC) and then across 7th Street is somewhat connected... 

I love our Greenways, I'm on them almost everyday. But we are very much an extremely far stretch away from best in the country. If there was funding for some of the additional proposed routes on their map I could at least say they are working on it, but the lack of funding and resistance for even the XClt Trail which we are still years away from even UNCC connection to Little Sugar Creek makes me doubtful of any major changes in the next several years.  

And a lot of their proposed routes are NEVER going to happen.  Here in South Charlotte...the connection from Lower McAlpine to McAlpine...not happening as Carmel Country club wants NOTHING to do with it.   McMullen to the Sliver Line Rail Trail?  LOL.  Quail Hollow is never going to allow a greenway on their property (nor is Glen Eagles homeowners association).  Rea to Raintree?  Maybe but that's a lot of land to buy.

Heck they can't even connect McMullen to Little Sugar creek and they only needed like 200 yards to connect them so there isn't even a real Cross Charlotte "Trail".  It will be a mile on sidewalks and crossing a busy road.  If they can't force Haverties to sell a sliver of land, how do they think they are going to build out a huge system on private property?  It will be a bunch of disconnected piecemeal greenways for my lifetime. 

[ertley]

To me, there's one huge opportunity for creating dedicated bike lanes--what I believe they classify as "Urban Trails" in the master plan--that (I think) would get huge use and address some of Charlotte's long term connectivity dead zone: Providence Road.  Mid- and lower Providence has that median that isn't particularly wide, and isn't even planted with trees, but absolutely has enough width to allow creation of two bike lanes. I know reconstructing the street would cost $$$, but it's just priceless right of way that's being wasted, and the width of the median won't allow any additional lane creation (not that the neighborhoods would brook such a thing anyway) besides a continuous central turning lane. The loss of a treeless median isn't something that anyone except standard NIMBYs should care about. Coincidentally the median ends right at Briar Creek, so if the city/county could manage to extend the Briar Creek greenway just down to Providence Road, you could have a major commuting bikeway stretching all the way from at least the McAlpine Creek greenway and then through Briar Creek greenway farther north to Randolph via Eastover Park. (End portion into downtown/uptown/center city would be the more challenging final stage, obvs.)

IMO the city should seriously evaluate this as an option, because this is ready right of way that doesn't have to be acquired, and it's literally wasted space now. With an Urban Trail up and down Providence you'd have north-south bike routes fairly evenly distributed through south Charlotte, with the Blue Line Rail Trail, then Sugar Creek greenway, and then hopefully eventually the Silver Line Rail Trail. This would take some of the pressure off the city/county to create longer east-west connections because you'd just have to make sure each of these adjacent trails were connected, but not necessarily (if impracticable) each continuously, in one line, linked to one another.    

On the other side of town, it looks like the city/county is planning on taking the Irwin Creek greenway through Double Oaks Park and then (smartly) utilizing the remainders of the lots taken for 77's widening on the west side of the road immediately south of the park. That gets Irwin Greek's greenway down to Oaklawn with pretty much no impediments, and within striking distance of downtown/uptown/center city. I think it's a great plan, in no small part because a bike path abutting the interstate won't have to deal with cars, intersections and stoplights for long stretches, so an ideal path for commuting. 

I think the city should look at doing the same thing on the west side of 77. I've long thought (with my passion for [re]connecting disjointed streets) that the city should connect Frazier and North Summit and Andrill then to Dean to Newcastle/Newland to create a good north-south street all the way from Beatties Ford just below 85 to Wesley Heights Way. You can also then make a dedicated bike trail on the east side of this new street with significant portions, again, without any interruptions or interference by cars due to no intersections. Win/Win IMO. 

[KJHburg]

what city has the best greenway trail system in the country?  Please name names I have told you who I think has a great system and it is right up the road from us.  Other cities have country clubs that won't allow greenway trails through them too.  So what are your model cities since many think ours is subpar and will be that way forever?   If you read my comments I said it has the making to be one of the best.  Did not say it was there today.  As for the Cross Charlotte Trail XCLT some of it will be sidewalks along streets.  This happens all over sometimes that is the only way to connect it. We have a ridgeline in east Mecklenburg county and there is no creek or stream to follow from UNCC to NoDa area so the trail will along a road or in wooded areas where possible. 

Mr Tepper has said he wants to the taxpayer to pay 1/3 towards a new stadium.  That is $300-500 MILLION easy boy would that build a lots of greenways and connections.  

yes some people are never to going to sell then work around them.   But we do need a good plan.  Fail to plan or plan to fail. 

[JHart]

 

34 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

what city has the best greenway trail system in the country?  Please name names

DC is an easy example without even thinking about it. Continuous greenway all the way to Baltimore and hundreds of miles of greenways all around the city connecting its parks. 

37 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Mr Tepper has said he wants to the taxpayer to pay 1/3 towards a new stadium.  That is $300-500 MILLION easy boy would that build a lots of greenways and connections.  

yes some people are never to going to sell then work around them.   But we do need a good plan.  Fail to plan or plan to fail. 

I'd agree the city should be spending $0 for a new stadium and fully support extra spending on our greenway system. It just is not a priority based on the history of funding projects and work that has been done so far. Because of the shape of Charlotte's roads, I think we should be looking at road diets along all of our spokes and adding in large protected sidewalks and protected bike lanes. 

[InSouthPark]

37 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

what city has the best greenway trail system in the country?  Please name names I have told you who I think has a great system and it is right up the road from us.  O

Denver for one: https://www.denvergov.org/content/dam/denvergov/Portals/747/documents/parks/trails/regional_trails_web.pdf  They have like 100's of miles of greenways which connect to each other, not including the bikeway to Boulder. 

[JHart]

51 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

what city has the best greenway trail system in the country?  Please name names

Minneapolis has an amazing trail system. Chicago has a ton downtown and actually better greenways out in the suburbs. Baltimore is connected to DC and has some awesome harbor greenways. Indianapolis for a smaller city has a decent system throughout their downtown. Columbus for another small city has tons and is connected to OSU. Denver as mentioned above has tons.

[CM2424]

2 hours ago, ertley said:

To me, there's one huge opportunity for creating dedicated bike lanes--what I believe they classify as "Urban Trails" in the master plan--that (I think) would get huge use and address some of Charlotte's long term connectivity dead zone: Providence Road.  Mid- and lower Providence has that median that isn't particularly wide, and isn't even planted with trees, but absolutely has enough width to allow creation of two bike lanes. I know reconstructing the street would cost $$$, but it's just priceless right of way that's being wasted, and the width of the median won't allow any additional lane creation (not that the neighborhoods would brook such a thing anyway) besides a continuous central turning lane. The loss of a treeless median isn't something that anyone except standard NIMBYs should care about. Coincidentally the median ends right at Briar Creek, so if the city/county could manage to extend the Briar Creek greenway just down to Providence Road, you could have a major commuting bikeway stretching all the way from at least the McAlpine Creek greenway and then through Briar Creek greenway farther north to Randolph via Eastover Park. (End portion into downtown/uptown/center city would be the more challenging final stage, obvs.)

IMO the city should seriously evaluate this as an option, because this is ready right of way that doesn't have to be acquired, and it's literally wasted space now. With an Urban Trail up and down Providence you'd have north-south bike routes fairly evenly distributed through south Charlotte, with the Blue Line Rail Trail, then Sugar Creek greenway, and then hopefully eventually the Silver Line Rail Trail. This would take some of the pressure off the city/county to create longer east-west connections because you'd just have to make sure each of these adjacent trails were connected, but not necessarily (if impracticable) each continuously, in one line, linked to one another.    

On the other side of town, it looks like the city/county is planning on taking the Irwin Creek greenway through Double Oaks Park and then (smartly) utilizing the remainders of the lots taken for 77's widening on the west side of the road immediately south of the park. That gets Irwin Greek's greenway down to Oaklawn with pretty much no impediments, and within striking distance of downtown/uptown/center city. I think it's a great plan, in no small part because a bike path abutting the interstate won't have to deal with cars, intersections and stoplights for long stretches, so an ideal path for commuting. 

I think the city should look at doing the same thing on the west side of 77. I've long thought (with my passion for [re]connecting disjointed streets) that the city should connect Frazier and North Summit and Andrill then to Dean to Newcastle/Newland to create a good north-south street all the way from Beatties Ford just below 85 to Wesley Heights Way. You can also then make a dedicated bike trail on the east side of this new street with significant portions, again, without any interruptions or interference by cars due to no intersections. Win/Win IMO. 

That's an interesting idea!  I do think creatively using extra space near roads for truly protected lanes makes sense.  Between greenways, treeless medians, the rail trail, sidewalks that nobody ever walks on, etc. you'd think we could get a connected network of protected lanes. 

[KJHburg]

Sorry I can 't count the Washington DC area as a model since most of their large greenways and parks are part of the National Park Service.  I grew up there in Fairfax County and have walked along GW Parkway, C&O Canal, Great Falls Parks but all those are National Parks.   If Charlotte was made the nation's capital we could get those kind of parks too.  I think Washington DC is one of the best looking capital cities anywhere in the world but unfair comparison in this case.   https://www.nps.gov/locations/dc/parks.htm

Denver does look like it has a good system but I still contend Raleigh's per capita per mile and adjoining Cary is got to be one of the best in the country. 

https://cityofraleigh0drupal.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/drupal-prod/COR24/raleigh-greenway-map.pdf

Denver is impressive as is the Twin Cities map here http://www.tcgreenways.org/why-greenways/connecting-regional-trails/

But getting back to Charlotte (and love to see this passion for our greenways what can we do locally_  Lets support Carolina Thread Trails network and their work. 

https://www.carolinathreadtrail.org/

here is Denver's fundraising   for greenway arm outside of govt.   https://www.thegreenwayfoundation.org/  and Atlanta has its PATH Foundation https://www.pathfoundation.org/

I contend we need to get our major employers in this region involved with giving of dollars to speed up our system. We do have a great system that is growing but it does need to be more connected.  But soon you will be able to walk from Villa Height and Cordelia Park to NC SC state line below Pineville all the missing links are under construction and one under reconstruction by Atrium Hospital.  

Lets support them more by encouraging our large employers to help out with trails with donations, clean up days etc.    But we all presumably live in this area now so how can we improve them in addition to public funding? 

 

[KJHburg]

Here is the South Charlotte Cross Connector trail from Park Rd Ext to the McMullen Creek/Lower McAlpine  greenway.  Not quite connected the new Little Sugar Creek greenway section near James K Polk State Historical site yet. It runs besides the sewage treatment plant and I-485.   it does appear that it will  have to have some sidewalk connections to connect to LSC Greenway.  It has a nice little elevated boardwalk section over McMullen Creek.  Once you got down to the creek level the highway was drowned out by the frogs. 

[elrodvt]

I really liked Denver's as well. In addition to the quality and size of the system they also have so many more parks than here. Plus when you have to go on the road lots of lanes are protected. Never used the system to commute though.

[JRCLT]

 
I'd agree the city should be spending $0 for a new stadium and fully support extra spending on our greenway system. It just is not a priority based on the history of funding projects and work that has been done so far. Because of the shape of Charlotte's roads, I think we should be looking at road diets along all of our spokes and adding in large protected sidewalks and protected bike lanes. 

Greenways… aren’t just by a creek or in the woods. Greenways and bike/pedestrian infrastructure are all one in the same.

[JHart]

7 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Greenways… aren’t just by a creek or in the woods. Greenways and bike/pedestrian infrastructure are all one in the same.

That's exactly what I said....

[JRCLT]

That's exactly what I said....

Oh. I guess I misunderstood what your point was, my apologies.

Edit: Mine was the fact that I saw some other saying we shouldn’t invest in greenways because of where they would have to go through, but that isn’t true. Greenways don’t have to follow a creek necessarily. It can be wider sidewalks and protected bike lanes as you mentioned. Investment in greenways does not only mean those wooded and creek aligned sections but the bike/pedestrian infrastructure found along streets as well.

[KJHburg]

Forgot these photos from the other day.  Little Sugar Creek Greenway south of I-485 to Polk is really nice and fairly new.

Little Sugar Creek Greenway: I-485 to Polk Memorial State Historic Site (carolinathreadtrailmap.org)

this Marsh Park (really just a wetland not a real marsh) is what I am calling the Everglades of Mecklenburg.  Grassy lake and overflow from the creek. 

Tell me that does not look like the everglades.   and this greenway is being extended right now a couple more miles to the SC state line. 

 

[RANYC]

Our parks and greenways really are special.  CM Parks doing a great job in my opinion.  I continue to be impressed at the spaces I see.  Well maintained, cleaned.  Nice biodiversity.  Just signed up to start volunteering.

Edited April 10, 2022 by RANYC

[KJHburg]

so I decided to explore a new area today in Cabarrus County.  A trail along the Rocky River on Catawba Lands Conservancy land called Pharr Family Preserve.   They have another property in Cabarrus I look forward to exploring and it has a suspension bridge can not wait to see it. 

https://catawbalands.org/signature/pharr-family-preserve/   This is less than 1 mile across the river from where a young Conrad Reed found a 17 lb gold nugget and started the Carolina Gold Rush in 1799.  (Believe me I was looking around on the ground and in ditches LOL)  Check out that canoe launch and this is the Rocky River Blueway.  You can canoe down the RR for almost75 miles unimpeded. 

Catawba Lands Conservancy is preserving natural areas, working farms, river ways all in the Charlotte metro area.   They are the lead organization for the Carolina Thread Trail which has 300 miles and growing of trails and greenways in metro area.       Check them out and support them if you like   https://catawbalands.org/    We live in a rapidly growing area and their work is very important and it just not in the surrounding counties they have plenty of land preserved in Mecklenburg County including working farms.  

Vibe of trail:  very peaceful birds dominate and beautiful trees.  Stay on the trail as the surrounding property is private property and some is used for hunting as a sign indicated. (Note to self delay visits in deer season or wear bright clothing)   Oh yeah saw 2 working beef cattle farms on the way out there.   Eastern Cabarrus County is as rural as it gets and will most likely stay that way as there is NO plans to extend water and sewer out there and the land has problem perking for septic due to the soils.   Despite this trail being natural surface it was well marked and fairly even.  

High gas prices got you down explore this region and I know you will be very surprised what you see close by.   And if you are need of a pick me up afterward stop by the famous Sundae Shop at the Midland crossroads for ice cream. 

Urban, suburban, rural greenways and trails we got them all in this region go out and explore. 

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by KJHburg

[Desert Power]

On 4/7/2022 at 5:23 PM, KJHburg said:

@cmwilson24to answer your question about commutability on the greenways. The system will be one of the finest in the country ONCE it is all connected.  Raleigh and Cary's greenway system is all connected and is just fantastic and contributes to their livability rankings.  Of the existing greenways that I think currently could be commuter corridors for walkers and bicyclists would be these 3:  Little Sugar Creek greenway north of uptown to Belmont, Villa Heights allowing easy access to uptown employment centers.  Likewise southbound but with 2 sections under construction a little more difficult.  The Irwin Creek greenway from Seversville, Wesley Heights allow easy access to uptown.  The best suburban greenway that could be a commuter corridor is Mallard Creek Greenway.  It links residential areas north of University Research Park through the UR Park to UNCC campus.  The greenway goes by the corporate campuses of Centene and TIAA both big employers. And links up well to the UNCC campus via Toby Creek Greenway.  

 

One issue I see with using the greenways for commuting is that there are often points under the roads that are flooded. I live in Villa Heights and the greenway under Parkwood almost always has standing water. I don't mind much when I'm just riding around for fitness, but wouldn't go into work wet from nasty runoff water. A little retaining walls would go a long ways. Just my two cents.

[KJHburg]

that is true sometimes they flood but most of them have a bypass to avoid going under a street.  It is option I don't ever think people would use greenways every day to commute but nice days nice temperatures sure.   Just like now some ride their bikes to work on nice days and other days they find alternative ways. 

[JRCLT]

that is true sometimes they flood but most of them have a bypass to avoid going under a street.  It is option I don't ever think people would use greenways every day to commute but nice days nice temperatures sure.   Just like now some ride their bikes to work on nice days and other days they find alternative ways. 

!!!!!!!!!! It’s all about providing alternatives.