Van Andel Arena expansion?

[superNOVA]

My question is... the GR really have a sizable enough upper class to go to these games? Usually the upper class is what attending these games, the middle and lower classes cannot support the tickets of major league sports.

Grand Rapids is technically the richest region without a pro team. Just a fact. There are plenty of people here that would go.

[dnast]

Rand Mcnally is likely using highway miles, as opposed to calculating distance by a strait line. The shortest distance between two points is a strait line.....highways rarely follow strait lines and certainly I96 between GR and Lansing does not. Thus, the Lansing area is indeed within 60 miles of GR....by strait line methodology.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it's fair to use highway miles in this situation, unless people are expected to fly to GR from Lansing to catch a game.

Also, I'd like to add that G.R. just doesn't have the name to catch people's attention. A lot of competing cities are cities that were once "Top 20" in the US or are newer up-and-coming cities that constantly make headlines.

If G.R. is to get a major team, somebody needs to find a way to market the city and get it some publicity just to put its name on people's lips. As everybody has stated, the economics are there and there's no local competition. The city just needs something to push it over the hump in the pro sports industry's eyes.

[joeDowntown]

I agree Dnast. Whether it is sports, business or anything else, most people do not know where or what Grand Rapids is. I deal with a lot of people around the world and they all ask where we are in relation to Chicago. They must have heard SOMETHING about Grand Rapids to know that it is even close to Chicago, but they have no clue what we're about. To them, we could easily be Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

I'm sure that will change. If it doesn't, shame on us.

Joe

[snoogit]

Hmmm, if MSU puts a med school here, I could definately see GR being better known on the map.

Heck It'd be great if you could have a subsiduary university here, like UM - Flint, UM - Dearborn, etc. MSU - Grand Rapids has a nice ring to it

Granted you wont have sports, or anything to attract most national attention to GR, but its still something to ponder... Still the best national coverage GR got was when ABC came to Grand Rapids to show the Arena Bowl *shrug* we do need something here. I'd love to have something, anything worthy of national attention. Like a 50 story building, or something of that nature, or a large tuna fish. just anything will do!

[snoogit]

Sorry to perform thread necromancy, but ive been thinking...

I'm just looking at NHL attendance figures, and even without an arena expansion there is enough room to house as many fans as some attendance stats at NHL games:

The Bottom 5 NHL attendance stats:

26 NY Islanders: 13,431 Per Home Game (PHG)

27 Chicago: 13,253 PHG

28 Nashville: 13,177 PHG

29 Carolina : 12,171 PHG

30 Pittsburgh: 11,877 PHG

Now if GR had a professional NHL team, we could fill this with little (filling in the bottom sections) or no expansion on the arena's part. (This is asssuming they sell out almost every game)

If they fill in the entire arena (assuming an average of 334 people per section) The arena fills up to 15,674 so a 16,000 or so seat arena isn't out of the realm of impossibility.

Now the most intriguing possibility of bringing an NHL team to GR is the Carolina Hurricanes, who are owned by Peter Karmanos, a native of Michigan and at one time wanted to put another NHL hockey team in the Palace. Knowing his hockey fued with the Illitchs, could GR make a good sell to Karmanos to move the team here? Its not Auburn HIlls, but its close enough to cause some discomfort with Illitch, & Detroit.

The other possibility is the Devos family purchasing a majority stake inthe Penguins, moving them to Grand Rapids. The problem there is that a big chunk (not majority) of the Penguins were sold to a Portland investment firm. I think Mario is contemplating leaving the Penguins again, and selling his portion as well.

When could this happen? probably in 2-5 years. With the situation the NHL is in, it would make sense to move a struggling team financially to this area. The most likely canidate is Carolina, but Pittsburgh a good second.

As for the NBA? we wont see a team here for at least a decade. After St. Louis, Cincinatti, Conneticut(sp?), and Pittsburgh get their teams either through moves (unlikely) or expansion.

Another good bet for a move to Grand Rapids is a AAA baseball team (someone in a small market, but close to home as a MLB team).

[wyoming_mi]

With the changes that are sure to hit the NHL following the lock-out, it really has the possibility that we could maybe see a franchise here in GR. An expansion would be necessary, and would be great. If the Rampage get things turned around (which they will, big free agent signings coming this summer!) even that is a solid reason for an expansion. The Arena Football League is growing rapidly and gaining tons of exposure (NBC, FSN, 90% of games televised, video game by EA Sports coming in February) to the point where Grand Rapids is either going to be left behind or truly looked at as the Green Bay of the AFL. People have to remember that back in 2001-2002-2003 when the Rampage were winning games, a few of the sellouts were publicly announced to have ticket demand of 14,000+. It is not out of the question, but it will probably come down to how and who is going to foot the bill. DeVos has the money.... why not?? We obviously have no reason to build a new arena, and there is also no reason to stay at 10,834 either (Hockey seating). If a city like Witchita (planning stages) or Des Moines can have 16-18,000 seat arenas, Grand Rapids certainly can as well. Just as with larger downtown developments and redevelopments, GR needs to think big and not rest on its laurels.

[superNOVA]

AFL is still not considered a pro sport - class I that is. A pro team from one of the four majors has a much larger base draw. I have never been to an AFL or even a Griffins game. Would I go to a NBA, NHL, etc... game - you bet I would. There are a lot of people like me.

Like I said earlier in this post.

To the people that say Grand Rapids does not have enough people or money. Just look at the numbers. At this point, we are by far the best candidate for a new team. The richest of the lot and in a fairly dense region when compared with the competition.

It is just a matter of time before someone is willing to take the risk and bring one here. That is the problem, it is a risk, in any market.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

To the people that say Grand Rapids does not have enough people or money. Just look at the numbers. At this point, we are by far the best candidate for a new team. The richest of the lot and in a fairly dense region when compared with the competition.

Grand Rapids is technically the richest region without a pro team. Just a fact. There are plenty of people here that would go.

Who is the competition? Cities with no pro sports, or cities that may get more?

Since we are talking money and economy and population look at the following figures.

GMP of Grand Rapids 43 billion, 59th in the nation

Cities with no pro sports include:

Richmond VA (about the same size as GR)

GMP: 50.4 billion

Population: 192,494 in city and 1,138,234 in metro

Las Vegas NV

GMP: 64.6 billion

Population: 517,017 in city and 1,688,385 in metro

Norfolk VA

GMP:65.2 billion

Population: 237,835 in city and 1,701,083 in metro

hartford CT

GMP: 73.7 billion

Population: 124,558 in city and 1,298,907 in metro

New Haven CT

GMP:85.4 billion

Population: 124,000 part of the Northeast megaopolis 21,854,000

Greensboro

GMP:50.6 billion

Population: 229,110 in city and 1,473,679 in metro

Orlando has one team

GMP: 65.8 billion

Population: 199,336 in city and 1,922,412 in metro

Then you have cities like San Antonio (one team)

The point is there is quite the list to go before Grand Rapids is going to be considered. While the economy is good for the size of the city, its nothing spectacular compared to the rest of the United States. Population wise there are still several cities to go through before Grand Rapids gets a team.

Michigan already has the Detroit and Chicago teams within a short drive and growth in population and economy is not up to say the southeast or southwest. I don't believe the corporations would risk the investment in a professional sports package.

[GRDadof3]

Who is the competition? Cities with no pro sports, or cities that may get more?

Since we are talking money and economy and population look at the following figures.

GMP of Grand Rapids 43 billion, 59th in the nation

Michigan already has the Detroit and Chicago teams within a short drive and growth in population and economy is not up to say the southeast or southwest. I don't believe the corporations would risk the investment in a professional sports package.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know what the growth part meant in regards to GR. The metro area has grown considerably over the last ten years and is projected to continue. Plus, this area did about a 1/3 of the number of new residential building permits that Detroit metro did, and we are about 1/7 the size.

I am not an expert on sports, but RDV already owns the Orlando Magic, the RDV Sportsplex in Orlando, the recently opened MVP Sportsplex here, and recently purchased the Peninsular Health Club downtown. And he LOVES his hometown.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

The growth of Grand Rapids is like I said, not at the level of the growth in the South East and South West. Growth is a very important part of the package when planning any business venture...

The population of GR grew 5.5% (respectable in the north but not on the level of which populations grow in the south) in the last ten years,

compare that to the south where the population of Raleigh grows 5.5% every year. This is the story throughout the south east and west.

Pro sports still have places to go in the south and expanding markets, that is a major reason why MI or GR will not receive another pro team.

[superNOVA]

What Grand Rapids was that, the MSA or CSA? Last economic census ratings has the CSA at 65 billion (better reading than the GMP) larger than Jacksonville, Buffalo, and alost Nashville. About the same as New Orleans. The density of Michigan would also be a major factor as sports teams look out of the metro areas to determine potential.

Last official list I saw had GR more than capable of hosting an NFL, NHL, NBA, or MLS team or two of the lower tier NBA, NHL, or MLS.

Check out the Spreadsheet on this page... You will have to download it.

http://www.bizjournals.com/edit_special/3.html

Says a lot. Grand Rapids is technically third but LV and Greensboro are basically tied with us. Also check out some of the larger cities that have teams that are way too overextended. The spreadsheet also shows which teams can be supported by the metro and which can't as well as the number that could be.

It is interesting. And as you can see, it is a matter of someone bringing the team here, not economics.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

where do you find this economic census rating...

what does the CSA include? And what year was that number for?

I got a 404 trying to download the spreadsheet.

[superNOVA]

where do you find this economic census rating...

what does the CSA include? And what year was that number for?

I got a 404 trying to download the spreadsheet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/sports2004/story1.html

Try this one. Same spreadsheet.

The economic census is on the census website. However, you might as well wait for the new one now as the old data is hard to find. They compile a new census every seven years and they are rolling out the new data now, and over the Summer. The last data is from 1997.

To get the info, you need to add the seperate sectors together to get the total economic impact of an area. I think that the bizjournals spreadsheet does a pretty good job as it is based on available income.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

interesting chart. I like how NYC has it. They could support a whole league

What exactly is GR's economic area?

maybe there is some truth in your claims. I am starting to see the possibility from the numbers side but from the practical side, it would not make sense for the mid-west to have another pro team.

[GRDadof3]

Wow! That chart is interesting in so many ways.

BTW, Moonshield: Charlotte is a great looking city, and you guys have some great looking projects in the works. I will have to get my family down there sometime (when snow is blowing here).

[wyoming_mi]

Here is my opinion with the Rampage and expanding the 'Van. I know many people don't look at the AFL very highly in terms of a major pro sports league, which I won't disagree with. Any of you guys on here that haven't been to a game- go to one- the sport is 100x's better in person, especially in the small confines of the Van Andel. What is true is that the status and exposure of the league are on the rise very quickly. Even if we were to sellout all 8 home games in a given year, the Rampage would be about dead last in the 17 team league in attendance. As Dan Devos mentioned earlier this year, the league and profitablitly is all about ticket sales. This is why even in the glory years (which are on the way back) the team struggled to make a profit. The demand was there for 14,000+ tickets for many games, but they were limited to 10,595, which is BY FAR the smallest arena in the league by over 4,000. People may point to 2004 and this past season as reasons for not expanding based on the Rampage alone because, well, frankly they sucked. Success tends to be cyclical and Dan Devos has talked to me personally, as a season ticket holder that they know the mistakes they made when they got rid of almost all the key players from the successful seasons. Again, for those of you who aren't huge followers of the AFL, believe me it IS growing very fast. Devos has stated his strong committment to keeping the franchise in Grand Rapids, even with outside pressure to move the team to a larger market. Just last month he showed this as the Rampage signed that deal with Centennial Wireless for the naming rights to the playing surface. The 3-year deal is WELL in to the high six-figure range and will provide the team with a new playing surface (badly needed), wall pads, and most importantly financial strength. If the team can prove that the fan base is still strong after two losing seasons, I can't see why Devos or others would not at least look in to an expansion- it's going to be necesary for GR to even have any shot at being looked at for an NHL team anyway. Sorry about the rant lol, that's just a perspective from a huge downtown GR and Rampage supporter.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

yea, I remeber going to the very first Rampage game I had a blast. Its an exciting game but I moved to more a purist side of football...

[snoogit]

Who is the competition? Cities with no pro sports, or cities that may get more?

Since we are talking money and economy and population look at the following figures.

GMP of Grand Rapids 43 billion, 59th in the nation

Cities with no pro sports include:

Richmond VA (about the same size as GR)

GMP: 50.4 billion

Population: 192,494 in city and 1,138,234 in metro

Las Vegas NV

GMP: 64.6 billion

Population: 517,017 in city and 1,688,385 in metro

Norfolk VA

GMP:65.2 billion

Population: 237,835 in city and 1,701,083 in metro

hartford CT

GMP: 73.7 billion

Population: 124,558 in city and 1,298,907 in metro

New Haven CT

GMP:85.4 billion

Population: 124,000 part of the Northeast megaopolis 21,854,000

Greensboro

GMP:50.6 billion

Population: 229,110 in city and 1,473,679 in metro

Orlando has one team

GMP: 65.8 billion

Population: 199,336 in city and 1,922,412 in metro

Then you have cities like San Antonio (one team)

The point is there is quite the list to go before Grand Rapids is going to be considered. While the economy is good for the size of the city, its nothing spectacular compared to the rest of the United States. Population wise there are still several cities to go through before Grand Rapids gets a team.

Michigan already has the Detroit and Chicago teams within a short drive and growth in population and economy is not up to say the southeast or southwest. I don't believe the corporations would risk the investment in a professional sports package.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm just talking NHL, which is the MOST likely canidate to move to GR. Hockey is much more marketable here in the north, then in the south. None of those cities other then Hartford in all honesty are NHL-type cities (of course neither are Phoenix, Tampa Bay, Miami, and Atlanta, all who have teams)

GR has the economy, and the marketability to support an NHL-caliber team, and thats about it. Other then the NHL, I dont see GR ever supporting an NBA, or other type of sports team (Orlando, and San Antonio only have one pro sports team, why not put GR in a similar boat with the NHL?)

With the Griffins, their main competition is the Muskegon Fury, and Kalamazoo K-wings the only difference is they aren't in the same league, but to most people theres no difference. Although GR is a great canidate for hockey, I would think Indianapolis would be the better market for the NHL to penetrate, I dont think there is a single hockey team in Indianapolis, but im not sure.

As for AAA baseball, I would think GR should have a team in AAA by now. I'm more surprised we dont. Sure we have the Whitecaps, but I think a AAA affiliation would be much more marketable, and you could put the stadium near the downtown area, complimenting the Arena.

[Nitro]

I'm just talking NHL, which is the MOST likely canidate to move to GR.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NHL? What's that? Hockey? What's That?

It's been so long I've almost forgotten about them.

God I wish the strike would end soon...........

Nitro

[superNOVA]

I am starting to see the possibility from the numbers side but from the practical side, it would not make sense for the mid-west to have another pro team.

Very true.

Grand Rapids is not the most ideal location for all sports, however, the numbers are there and teams have moved to more senseless locations.

The NHL would be about the only team we would have a chance at. The NBA has a strong growth potential in the South and the NFL I suspect is too expensive for this conservative area. I could not see one of our local rich people spending almost all of their cash on a NFL team - just would not make sense. However, if Buffalo, Jacksonville, Nashville, and New Orleans can hang, there would be no reason why Grand Rapids could not.

In my opinion, the most intelligent thing that the NHL could do would be to move teams back to the 'home base'. It is not a mystery that the league went downhill when teams began moving too far from the Midwest and Canada. If a Southern or Western team were to fold, Grand Rapids could actually contend.

However, Detroit and Chicago would both weigh heavily, and I doubt that Detroit in particular would be happy to lose a large portion of their fan base.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I heard on PTI (Pardon the Interupption) that there is talk that the NHL is removing all of their teams south of DC

[snoogit]

Very true.

Grand Rapids is not the most ideal location for all sports, however, the numbers are there and teams have moved to more senseless locations.

The NHL would be about the only team we would have a chance at.  The NBA has a strong growth potential in the South and the NFL I suspect is too expensive for this conservative area.  I could not see one of our local rich people spending almost all of their cash on a NFL team - just would not make sense.  However, if Buffalo, Jacksonville, Nashville, and New Orleans can hang, there would be no reason why Grand Rapids could not.

In my opinion, the most intelligent thing that the NHL could do would be to move teams back to the 'home base'.  It is not a mystery that the league went downhill when teams began moving too far from the Midwest and Canada.  If a Southern or Western team were to fold, Grand Rapids could actually contend.

However, Detroit and Chicago would both weigh heavily, and I doubt that Detroit in particular would be happy to lose a large portion of their fan base.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

CHicago has had a struggling attendance record for almost a decade. I don't think Detroit will loose a huge segment of it's west side market if GR had a team. The only time I ever get to see a wings game is if I am offered tickets.

[MJLO]

It doesn't seem logical to me. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be great to have something like an NHL team in our city. But we can't even fill an arena with our Minor league hockey team. The kind of attendance that would warrant an NHL team, would be quite a bit bigger. I know I saw the post about NHL with poor attendance, But 14k is the Van Andel almost full I'd say in a good year an NHL team could get about 9k in average attendance.

Either way I'd like to see it

[wyoming_mi]

Even though I believe the chances are slim for a major league team, I don't really think you can gauge fan support/interest in the attendance of a minor league team. In my opinion it is like comparing apples to oranges- the NHL is off the charts in comparison with the AHL or old IHL. I would also love to see Grand Rapids see a upgrade in the minor league baseball scene, but even with a AA or AAA team, there won't be a new stadium. 5/3 Field has more room to add seats in the outfield, and already is comparable capacity-wise to many AA and AAA baseball stadiums, not to mention it is relatively young at 11 years old. Right now I think the organization is comfortable with the Tigers as the parent franchise so West Michigan fans can see future Tigers. Something tells me they won't part with the Tigers any time soon.

ps- one random piece of info i heard around somewhere is that Grand Rapids is one of the few, if one of the ONLY top-50 markets with neither a professional sports franchise OR a major Division 1 college program in town.

[snoogit]

It doesn't seem logical to me.  Don't get me wrong, I think it would be great to have something like an NHL team in our city.  But we can't even fill an arena with our Minor league hockey team.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Neither could Columbus, but now they are right in the middle in terms of overall attendance. Its sometimes a matter of just having a major presence vs a minor one.