What is northern New Englands Hub?

[pvenne]

for as long as i can remember i have heard that manchester new hampshire is a dump. it is a mill town. it is this and it is that. upon visiting it a few years back, however, i must say that it is really quite a modernizing and growing place that has apparently cleaned up a lot and is very forward looking in terms of development. to its credit, it has a few buildings (at least two, i believe) that have broken the 20-story mark. i must say, however, that if i had to live in a NNE city, it would have to be portland, where i am originally from. here are the reasons why:

1.) the ocean and beaches V. the merrimack river

2.) Maine medical center (top 2% nationally, 4th safest in country)

3.) shopping (i have heard from several different sources that the maine mall area is the largest shopping district north of boston. if this is not correct please tell me why)

4.) in terms of population manchester has portland beat, although if you take into consideration the differences in land area, the difference becomes much less. incorporating south portland into the portland area, which would be considering a slightly larger area than manchester within its municipal bounds, would give the immediate and most dense part of the portland area a pop of approx 90k (just under), rather than its relatively weak 65k (which i believe had grown somewhat, though).

5.) in addition, portland had 80 thousand people in 1950 (i swear), and it has only grown since then, meaning the city is not dying, just getting less dense (ppl are moving to the suburbs rather than the inner city.

6.) metro portland stands on its own (for the rural state oif maine, that is an accomplishment). manchester (in my opinion) is an arm of the boston area. if portland was in the same proximity to beantown, it would be much larger. some "towns" in mass. have greater populations than portland, but they are not cities. portland is a city.

7.) which brings me to my next point: nashua is a bedroom for boston, a residential town where people live but dont work. portland at least doubles in pop every business day and during christmas when the mall is packed south portland can get near 100k, so at some points of the year we are talking a day time population that is the better part of a quarter million for the two towns. for maine this is a megalopolis.

8.) nightlife: cant beat it, it is exciting, most of the time safe, and diverse.

9.) symphony orchestra (i dont know if manchester has one...anyone else know?)

10.) the art museum (manchester?)

11.) minor league sports teams (i know manchetser has some too, and that is a big plus)

12.) the view of the downtown from south portland...unbeatable...no omatter how stubborn mainers are in terms of development, the city looks amazing at night or during the day from key locations.

13.) POTENTIAL....this is a big one for manchester too. both p-town and manchetsre have the potential to take the next step up the latter in terms of categorization from industrial cities to world-class. that is exciting.

this is not meant to be strictly a comparison of portland and manch with the intent of putting down manchester, which is a very cool place. the reason it may seem like that is because i felt the other "cities" in NNE arent even worth bringing in to the discussion. burlington, for example, where i go to college at uvm, is not a city like portland or manchester is...it is more like a meeting place for the towns that surround it...with maybe one building that reaches 11 stories or something like that, and even that is hidden by taller trees. nothing of a skyline, though there are a few (and i mean a few) bars on church street. lewiston, where i was born, is very urban, but that is not to say modern or developed. urban only in the industrial revolution sense. it is a real tough town with lots of conflicts between somali immigrants and racist mainers with pickup trucks. were manchester on the ocean and a little more removed from the boston metro, it would certainly have a leg up on portland. seeing as how it is not however, my opinion remains. it is still an excellent place to visit though. hopefully both it and portland can becoem the cities many of us want them to become.

[pvenne]

Wow, Portland has that much land, thats 6 square miles more than Boston!

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okay okay, portland has more area than manchester (52.6mi squared versus manchester's 34.9). fine fine, but consider this: only 21.2mi squared are above water; the other 31 and a half square miles are submerged in rivers or the atlantic ocean. accounting for the islands included in portlands area makes the actual mainland city even smaller. making the same adjustment for manchester, it appears that of its roughly 35 sq. miles, only 5 of them are water, leaving manchester with a greater land area than portland of almost 10 sq. miles. portland is also more densely built in terms of housing units. MANCHESTER: There are 45,892 housing units at an average density of 536.8/km

[pvenne]

Cultural would be a draw between Portsmouth/Portland although Portland is bigger Port City (Portsmouth,Hampton,rye,new castle, and newington) have just as much if not more to do for fun and entertainment, Portsmouth also has more history,but it is some what of a yuppie city now .

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portsmouth new hampshire, a city? i dont think so. it is smaller than south portland, which is a town by all means, by a few thousand. i have been to both places, lived in portland for many years, and i would have to disagree kindly on this one, especially on the history part.

[pvenne]

for as long as i can remember i have heard that manchester new hampshire is a dump.  it is a mill town.  it is this and it is that.  upon visiting it a few years back, however, i must say that it is really quite a modernizing and growing place that has apparently cleaned up a lot and is very forward looking in terms of development.  to its credit, it has a few buildings (at least two, i believe) that have broken the 20-story mark.  i must say, however, that if i had to live in a NNE city, it would have to be portland, where i am originally from.  here are the reasons why:

1.) the ocean and beaches V. the merrimack river

2.) Maine medical center (top 2% nationally, 4th safest in country)

3.) shopping (i have heard from several different sources that the maine mall area is the largest shopping district north of boston.  if this is not correct please tell me why)

4.) in terms of population manchester has portland beat, although if you take into consideration the differences in land area, the difference becomes much less.  incorporating south portland into the portland area, which would be considering a slightly larger area than manchester within its municipal bounds, would give the immediate and most dense part of the portland area a pop of approx 90k (just under), rather than its relatively weak 65k (which i believe had grown somewhat, though).

5.) in addition, portland had 80 thousand people in 1950 (i swear), and it has only grown since then, meaning the city is not dying, just getting less dense (ppl are moving to the suburbs rather than the inner city.

6.) metro portland stands on its own (for the rural state oif maine, that is an accomplishment).  manchester (in my opinion) is an arm of the boston area.  if portland was in the same proximity to beantown, it would be much larger.  some "towns" in mass. have greater populations than portland, but they are not cities.  portland is a city.

7.) which brings me to my next point: nashua is a bedroom for boston, a residential town where people live but dont work.  portland at least doubles in pop every business day and during christmas when the mall is packed south portland can get near 100k, so at some points of the year we are talking a day time population that is the better part of a quarter million for the two towns.  for maine this is a megalopolis. 

8.) nightlife: cant beat it, it is exciting, most of the time safe, and diverse.

9.) symphony orchestra (i dont know if manchester has one...anyone else know?)

10.) the art museum (manchester?)

11.) minor league sports teams (i know manchetser has some too, and that is a big plus)

12.) the view of the downtown from south portland...unbeatable...no omatter how stubborn mainers are in terms of development, the city looks amazing at night or during the day from key locations.

13.) POTENTIAL....this is a big one for manchester too.  both p-town and manchetsre have the potential to take the next step up the latter in terms of categorization from industrial cities to world-class.  that is exciting.

this is not meant to be strictly a comparison of portland and manch with the intent of putting down manchester, which is a very cool place.  the reason it may seem like that is because i felt the other "cities" in NNE arent even worth bringing in to the discussion.  burlington, for example, where i go to college at uvm, is not a city like portland or manchester is...it is more like a meeting place for the towns that surround it...with maybe one building that reaches 11 stories or something like that, and even that is hidden by taller trees.  nothing of a skyline, though there are a few (and i mean a few) bars on church street.  lewiston, where i was born, is very urban, but that is not to say modern or developed.  urban only in the industrial revolution sense.  it is a real tough town with lots of conflicts between somali immigrants and racist mainers with pickup trucks.  were manchester on the ocean and a little more removed from the boston metro, it would certainly have a leg up on portland.  seeing as how it is not however, my opinion remains.  it is still an excellent place to visit though.  hopefully both it and portland can becoem the cities many of us want them to become.

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i would also have to choose p-town because of the fact that it has more high rise buildings, even if they are not as tall as manchester's two or three mini-scrapers. portland has 17 buildings over ten stories tall, with at least one more planned to begin construction this summer (waterview) and possibly as many as two more on top of that in the near future...not to mention the lincoln center proposal that was steps away from becoming reality, haulted by only a lack of public will to fund it. this makes for a more engaging and diverse city scape, and a more interesting place to walk around in or drive through. also, amtrak has brought convenient access to boston to the portland area.

[M. Brown]

No. Manchester has a larger area than Portland and Manchester is Denser as far as population goes.

[pvenne]

No. Manchester has a larger area than Portland and Manchester is Denser as far as population goes.

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YES. manch is more dense in overall terms, but its housing units are not built as densely as are portlands. thus, it is less dense. and my argument was that portland has a smaller area than manch...someone else said it had over 50 sq miles, when in fact most of those are under water...that is all. no doubt manch is a bigger city in overall terms.

[pvenne]

it should also be noted that portland housing is more dense simply due to the fact that our tallest structures are for residential purposes; it is the other way around in manchester, which i believe has taller office towers than res structures. portland: back bay tower (15 st.) franklin towers (17 st.) some old person home on forest ave (11 st.) and then multiple apartment buildings in the 6-9 story range...we need some more modern office structures if you ask me. manchester is on the right track as concerns this.

[pvenne]

oh yeah, not to mention those two condo buildings on the east end, one of which is 14 st. from one side and the other of which is 13 from every side..

[Hudman]

You cant honestly think Portland has more history than Portmouth.

[Hudman]

(manch is probably the only vaguely "sleazy" city in northern NE)

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Rochester,NH

Lewiston,ME

Sanford,ME

Nashua,NH

Bitteford,ME

[Woonsocketier]

About two years ago Portland's harbor passed Boston Harbor for the largest handler of cargo in New England. If that doesn't spell hub than I don't know what does. The water def gives Portland a head start over Machester, even if Manchester is bigger.

[Loughlin]

Some pics and history aboot the Port City

The Sarah Long and the Pisquatiqua River Bridge

Market Square

One of the most famous churches in New England, North Congretional Church

The Famous Portsmouth tugs

Downtown Pic

The Memorial Bridge

The Portsmouth Rotary

Old Iron Sides

the JPJ house

and how could we forget Easy E and Dio

.......and Phish

[Cotuit]

I really don't like having to delete posts. I don't get paid anything to do this you know. Makes me want to ban people to avoid the hassle...

No personal attacks.

[pvenne]

.......and Phish

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what does phish have to do with portsmouth? are they all from there? i know they started in vermont (or at least i thought so) so that is why i am asking.

[M. Brown]

Phish is from Vermont. I still think Manchester is the hub even though its so close to Boston and all. Of course there is bias in my decision like everyone elses decision. Manchester is growing pretty fast. I would think its probably the fastest growing city over 100k or 50k in New England. I probably wrong but it sure seems like it. Driving through Manchester every I see all the construction projects going on downtown(I will be taking some pics soon). And the downtown activity during the weekday as increased so much. There are so many pedestrians. Housing is going up, Business is very good. Its awesome. For those of you who havent been to Manchester or havent been for a while you need to go see it. And I admit I have to go check out Portland as well. I was like 14 the last time I was there and I never really paid attention to cities that much.

[Woonsocketier]

I'm up in the White Mountains quite often and oftentimes I drive route three past downtown Manchester. I really like the job they've done with the old textile mills along the Merrimack as mixed use buildings. Here in Woonsocket, RI we have alot of those same mills and they look terrible in comparison to the ones in the Queen City. Historic restoration is an awesome tool and it looks like Manchester is using it to its advantage.

[CoreyPortlandME]

You cant honestly think Portland has more history than Portmouth.

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Portsmouth was only settled 9 years before Portland. I've been to Portsmout countless times. It's a wonderful little city with some neat areas.

I've never been to Manchester, and I would love to visit someday. Manchester clearly wants to be New England's second city. They have a state-of-the-art arena while Portland refuses to take the next step and replace our old and cramped civic center. I think if Manch is connected to Boston with some sort of rail, then it will officially be "on the map."

[M. Brown]

^ There are plans on building a new transportation hub with rail etc.(Including Commuter rail). There is more stuff that they are planning on doing and researching, you know all the usual stuff that cities do.

Portland has so much potential. Just imagine if they raised there height limit. I think the last I checked Portland was trying to rise there height limit to 220 or something. I have to look again. And yeah a new arena would be awesome. They also need to start building more housing.

[pvenne]

^ There are plans on building a new transportation hub with rail etc.(Including    Commuter rail).  There is more stuff that they are planning on doing and researching, you know all the usual stuff that cities do.

Portland has so much potential.  Just imagine if they raised there height limit.    I think the last I checked Portland was trying to rise there height limit to 220 or something.  I have to look again.  And yeah a new arena would be awesome.  They also need to start building more housing.

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^ there is a ten year master plan through 2010 that calls for the creation of 5,000 new units of housing; since it is 2005, i can only assume that they must be about half way finished by now.

also, i think portland's height limit is above 220, it just depends on what area of the city youre talking about; not that anyone would DARE build a building that tall, though. i read somewhere that a church that was labled for demolition could be built in to a new office tower given the way that the site it was built on is zoned (for the steeple), so there are little nooks and crannies and loop holes and such that could potentially present themselves for mini scraper sites.

[pvenne]

Portsmouth was only settled 9 years before Portland.  I've been to Portsmout countless times. It's a wonderful little city with some neat areas.

I've never been to Manchester, and I would love to visit someday. Manchester clearly wants to be New England's second city. They have a state-of-the-art arena while Portland refuses to take the next step and replace our old and cramped civic center. I think if Manch is connected to Boston with some sort of rail, then it will officially be "on the map."

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just curious, there is all this talk about manchester becoming new england's "second city", but what about all of the other cities that are far bigger? it would have to take over bridgeport, new haven and hartford, conn and springfield and worcester, mass, and then providence, R.I. (not necessarily in that order) and then towns like stamford...any input? also, hartford and manch are close in population counts, but there is a really big difference in terms of infrastructure, i get the feeling that no one lives in hartford, but that it is still a much miore major city than population would suggest...way more skyscrapers...

[CoreyPortlandME]

When I talk about "New England's second city" I mean Northern New England since we are in the Northern New England forum.

I agree there are some top-notch cities down in Southern New England also. Although Worcestor is usually considered to be pretty dependant on Boston and western Connecticut is dependant on New York.

[pvenne]

When I talk about "New England's second city" I mean Northern New England since we are in the Northern New England forum.

I agree there are some top-notch cities down in Southern New England also. Although Worcestor is usually considered to be pretty dependant on Boston and western Connecticut is dependant on New York.

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so if we are talking strictly about northern new england here, what do you mean manchester will become new england's "second" city? isnt it already the first? you cant mean second to boston, because boston is not in NNE, and if not boston, what would manchester be second to? im guessing not portland. more importanty, what do you consider NNE's first and second cities to be right now, given that manchester isnt either from what i gather....just curious.

[M. Brown]

^Dude chill out. We are trying to have a civilized here. He said Manchester WANTS to be NE's second city. He didn't say it is. I didnt say it is. Nobody said it was.

And yes, housing developments are going up all over, including suburbs. Nobody is trying to bash Portland. I think Portland is great and as far as buildings goes, denser than Manchester. And the fact that its on the coast is a major plus.

[pvenne]

^Dude chill out.  We are trying to have a civilized here.  He said Manchester WANTS to be NE's second city.  He didn't say it is.  I didnt say it is.  Nobody said it was. 

And yes, housing developments are going up all over, including suburbs.  Nobody is trying to bash Portland.  I think Portland is great and as far as buildings goes, denser than Manchester.  And the fact that its on the coast is a major plus.

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chill out? im sorry if i didnt seemd chilled, i meant to come across as confused. i dont understand the whole 2nd city thing. and i dont mean that i dont understand it because we are talking about manchester, i just dont know what it means. he said he was only talking about NNE, so my question is: if manchester isnt NNE's 2nd city, then what is it? more importantly, what is first? and i dont think anyone is baching portland. my only comment recently was that if manchester was NNEs "2nd city", then what would be first? then i said "not portland" because portland is smaller. so can someone please explain to me what is meant by manch becoming new englands 2nd city? at first i thought coreyportlandme was talking about all of new england, then he said just NNE, so then it would seem that manch is already first; so why all this talk about becoming 2nd as if it werent already better than 2nd?

-confused

[M. Brown]

^ Just forget about it. I pretty sure he was talking about all of New England.