The Vue

[monsoon]

.....

I also wonder whether the opinion that 'they find don't like living day to day so high up' can be backed up. I know many people living in almost all the high-rises we have uptown and don't know of any that aren't happy with their choice......

To my knowledge, there are not any 50+ story condos open in downtown at the moment. That was the questions asked. I qualified it myself by saying 25 stories, and even with that, there are just a couple of buildings that exceed this standard in CLT, and neither have sold out. The comments were directed towards buildings that were of this magnitude or higher and why we don't see more of them in the south. When providing personal anecdotes it might help to first to keep them in the context of what was being presented.

[monsoon]

Where has that been said? I have not heard one example of people who bought in a highrise and suddenly find out they dont like living high up......

Lady Celeste said it much better than I months ago when there was a similar discussion about the now, apparently dead, Signature Tower in Nashville that would have been even taller than The Vue. It pretty much sums up why you don't see many residential highrises of this height. I will repost what she said here. I am of the opinion that Charlotte has yet to learn this, but it will.

Now let me discuss the Signature Tower.

I will have to counter Plasticman's assessment and say that a building of the Siggy's size would be a serious mistake for the Atlanta market. This is my belief before or immediately after the credit crunch. I have a listing in a high-rise and a dear friend who lives in another high-rise. Having visited him on many occasions I will be the first to say that livability starts to seriously decrease after 30 floors. Only out of necessity will people tolerate higher floors. As Monsoon said, there are very few cities that really validate such height. Even in those cities are such high living is rare...look at New York, Mexico City, Tokyo and Sao Paulo. How many 70 story residential buildings are in those cities?

As an outsider this constructive criticism may not be received but take it for what it's worth. My husband and I were on the list. We even made the trip to Nashville to the unveiling of the Siggy. For the price we would have paid for the unit, we could buy in New York City. I personally loved the building but the fundamentals were not there. Even in a mid major market like Atlanta, living in a high-rise in the Buckhead district can be a challenge. It would not, however, be one of total inconvenience. Within steps of the Sovereign, The Mansion on Peachtree, Terminus, Realm and countless others, there are many shopping, dining and retail options. Also with MARTA access and highway access, one could be to the airport with ease and to countless points around the world. Until these issues are addressed in the Siggy's location, you would be hard pressed to find someone willing to put down as much money on an inconvenience. You don't get wealthy by making silly decisions.

Many of Atlanta's choicest high-rises are occupied by people as their second, third and sometimes fourth home. Many Europeans and Canadians are now buying up units in Atlanta's high-rises. I am not saying that Nashville doesn't have to same cache' as Atlanta. Perhaps it does. Atlanta speaks to a varied market. In one building you can have everything from a player for the Seattle Sea Hawks, to a major hip hop recording artist to a Russian Ballerina all on one floor. That's why I feel the Siggy's prices may have been another challenge. Some might say "why buy a unit there when I can buy a unit in Manhattan, Atlanta or Miami?" Getting the most bang for your buck is paramount.

Perhaps the Signature Tower is ahead of it's time. Perhaps the credit crunch is adding more fuel to the fire....or should I say water to the fire? Either way, I find the building to be quite attractive. In a market as young as Nashville, I personally think that Mr. G should sit on the land for a while. Build many midrises to add people and amenities to the city center...then and only then should he revisit the Siggy. In the Signature Towers price range; you are going to have to have a boatload of amenities. Giving away a Lexus LS460L is not going to suffice...especially if the potential owners already own a S600 or a Continental Flying Spur.

[uptownliving]

Well thats great but Lady Celeste doesn't live in a high rise....her experience is all second hand. I would rather hear from people who actually live in the high rises...then more second hand opinions of people who visit.

[Charlotte_native]

Well thats great but Lady Celeste doesn't live in a high rise....her experience is all second hand. I would rather hear from people who actually live in the high rises...then more second hand opinions of people who visit.

This is just one person's opinion (Lady Celeste) and as you've pointed out, from someone who doesn't live in a high-rise. I'd not consider myself qualified to let others know what cul-de-sac or suburban living is like. Those in the 'burbs likely wouldn't like the lifestyle in a tower any more than I'd like theirs.

Of the people i know that actually live in high-rises, yes - -not 50 stories but still, I've not heard a single complaint about how high up they live. I've actually heard quite the opposite regarding their views and other factors that come with being high up in the air. For those, it seems, the inconveniences are balanced out by the perceived benefits. Same could be said for suburban living -- people who like it discount the commute times, costs, and aggravation for the big yard and extra square footage. Toss in a community pool and walking trails...we've rediscovered Eden!

We all know that someone that wants a single family lifestyle, condo lifestyle, high rise lifestyle, lake living, big country spread, etc, is choosing what they like and others in the other catagories could probably poke holes in their logic. The great part is we have all these options and now we can add high-rise to the list.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Charlotte_native

[Andyc545]

To my knowledge, there are not any 50+ story condos open in downtown at the moment. That was the questions asked. I qualified it myself by saying 25 stories, and even with that, there are just a couple of buildings that exceed this standard in CLT, and neither have sold out.

But much of the spaces that haven't sold out aren't because they are too high, it's because of other factors such as layout, view, etc. I believe all of the top units in Avenue are already occupied and the trouble sells were the very low units (6th floor?) because of the daunting view and noise of neighboring generators) and a few other random units. In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but typically the cheapest and the most expensive units sell first, including the highly priced units up top and penthouses. I'm not saying that living 600 feet in the air is for most people, I'm just saying that generalization is incorrect because it is strictly opinion based from person to person. Heck, there are people that live on planes 20,000 feet in the air, living under water in Submarines in the army, and others have been mentioned. I will say this though, when visiting condos high up, you don't even feel like you are high. In fact the living situation felt just like living on the ground. It was only until you went up to a window or balcony and saw the view. I don't think, again strictly being opinionated, that it's really a decreased value in quality of life living 50 stories up. There are people at the top of Bank of America CHQ at 800 feet in the air that spend 10-12 hour days up there and these are the guys that could ultimately work anywhere. You typically spend an equivalent amount of time in a condo, give or take some.

[monsoon]

You guys are arguing why there should be more 50+ story residential towers when obviously they are not around. Remember that was the question asked, and why the responses that were given. were given. I always say the proof is in the pudding and while it is a matter of opinion the fact there are very few of these towers bears out what has been posted as to why you don't see them.

I am not going to speak for Lady Celeste, except to say that it was asked and I supplied an observation from someone else who BTW was going to buy in a super highrise and decided it wasn't for them. It was obviously a challenge meant to discount what I said and now that I actually supplied an answer to that question, it's not any good either. LOL To discount her opinion because she didn't buy in one of these buildings, after doing a thorough examination of what that means is a bit unfair IMO when, it is perfectly fine for someone to say everyone they know in a highrise in Charlotte (when there isn't even a building like this yet) is OK. She also did say she knew someone in this situation and had listed a property in a building like this. I guess that doesn't count either.

One more time, the question was asked as to why there are very few of these buildings. Nobody here has offered up anything to counter what has been said as to why. I think the fact there are carcases from two failed condo projects (one 50+ stories) and other proposals now dead and dying, is testimate enough to these ideas.

[AuLukey]

I agree that while it is pretty and nice to have glass boxes in our skyline, there isn't any reason why these 50+ story residences should be built. It just doesn't make sense to me. You make too many compromises to live in a structure like this and, since space isn't a limit here, it's really impractical to have built something like this. Don't get me wrong though, I love The Vue and I'm very happy it is being built, but I can't see myself recommending somebody to live there. Now if we're talking about a mixed use tower, then I can begin to see the rational behind building tall. If this included hotel or office on top of residential, then by all means this would make sense. That's why I don't mind Trump or Twelve or even 300 South.

Edited August 14, 2008 by aussie luke

[uptownliving]

You guys are arguing why there should be more 50+ story residential towers when obviously they are not around. Remember that was the question asked, and why the responses that were given. were given. I always say the proof is in the pudding and while it is a matter of opinion the fact there are very few of these towers bears out what has been posted as to why you don't see them.

I would much rather have more 50+ story condo towers built on surface lots in downtown then to have more of our tree canopy mowed over or lakeside watershed destroyed for single family housing.

On the flip side the proof is in the pudding...look at all the single family homes in the Charlotte area that have gone into foreclosure...look at all the home builders that have left the market or closed down completely. Are we to assume that is because of some "liviabilty" problem with single family homes? No of course not...its because of the economy and people that bought more than they could afford. That is the same problem with the 2 stalled condo towers in downtown.

But its a false argument to have because these condo towers are very expensive and complex to build and we all know that loads more single family housing is going to be built and it will remain the preferred form of housing for a long time to come. But in my book building dense housing near the transit lines is good development...even if some of it comes in the form of 50+ story condos.

[Charlotte_native]

You guys are arguing why there should be more 50+ story residential towers when obviously they are not around. Remember that was the question asked, and why the responses that were given. were given. I always say the proof is in the pudding and while it is a matter of opinion the fact there are very few of these towers bears out what has been posted as to why you don't see them.

I am not going to speak for Lady Celeste, except to say that it was asked and I supplied an observation from someone else who BTW was going to buy in a super highrise and decided it wasn't for them. It was obviously a challenge meant to discount what I said and now that I actually supplied an answer to that question, it's not any good either. LOL To discount her opinion because she didn't buy in one of these buildings, after doing a thorough examination of what that means is a bit unfair IMO when, it is perfectly fine for someone to say everyone they know in a highrise in Charlotte (when there isn't even a building like this yet) is OK. She also did say she knew someone in this situation and had listed a property in a building like this. I guess that doesn't count either.

One more time, the question was asked as to why there are very few of these buildings. Nobody here has offered up anything to counter what has been said as to why. I think the fact there are carcases from two failed condo projects (one 50+ stories) and other proposals now dead and dying, is testimate enough to these ideas.

From my reading Lady Celeste decided not to buy at 'Siggy' due to its location and pricing for where it is:

Until these issues are addressed in the Siggy's location, you would be hard pressed to find someone willing to put down as much money on an inconvenience. You don't get wealthy by making silly decisions.

That's why I feel the Siggy's prices may have been another challenge.

Perhaps the Signature Tower is ahead of it's time. Perhaps the credit crunch is adding more fuel to the fire....or should I say water to the fire? Either way, I find the building to be quite attractive. In a market as young as Nashville, I personally think that Mr. G should sit on the land for a while. Build many midrises to add people and amenities to the city center...then and only then should he revisit the Siggy.

All of the above doesn't mention how tall the building is though in her post she does mentioned some 'challenges' but overall she sounds pretty positive, just the location of this tower is ahead of its time. The location discussion by her i understand as well, she discusses proximity to public transportation, amenities, restaurants, retail, etc. Same can be said for uptown Charlotte, though most of these have been or are being addressed.

As for the postponement and/or death of our higher towers (300 South Tryon, 210 Trade) they did have presales and enough to build. The market demand for buyers was there and it has been stated, in the media, and proof in the pudding of their contracts -- finance problems, losing an anchor commercial tenant, and lawsuit stopped the projects. Not demand.

I agree that while it is pretty and nice to have glass boxes in our skyline, there isn't any reason why these 50+ story residences should be built. It just doesn't make sense to me. You make too many compromises to live in a structure like this and, since space isn't a limit here, it's really impractical to have built something like this. Don't get me wrong though, I love The Vue and I'm very happy it is being built, but I can't see myself recommending somebody to live there. Now if we're talking about a mixed use tower, then I can begin to see the rational behind building tall. If this included hotel or office on top of residential, then by all means this would make sense. That's why I don't mind Trump or Twelve or even 300 South.

I'm not going to say whether 50 story towers should or shouldn't be built -- that is up to the market to decide and if people want to live in them, so be it.

Your arguement that they are 'impractical' or that there are 'compromises' to living there could be used for suburban sprawl, cul-de-sac neighborhoods, lake living, etc. People choose where they live for many reasons, but good or bad, practicality isn't always one of them and compromises are alwasy made.

Big house, big yard, big commute, drive to everything, nothing practical to walk to. Live in a high-rise wait for an elevator all the time but have fantastic views. Again, it is all about choice, thank god we have choices so none of us are forced to live somewhere we don't want to. I can't see how someone would give up an hour or two a day of their life just to have a big yard or a dock on the lake, just like they don't understand why I like my home in the sky.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Charlotte_native

[monsoon]

......

Your arguement that they are 'impractical' or that there are 'compromises' to living there could be used for suburban sprawl, cul-de-sac neighborhoods, lake living, etc. People choose where they live for many reasons, but good or bad, practicality isn't always one of them and compromises are alwasy made.

Maybe, maybe not. There are far far far more people living in these situations vs 50+ story towers. Again the proof is in the pudding as that alone speaks to the practicality of the different situations.

In regards to demand. I have never seen high demand projects, not get built in Charlotte. Maybe I am missing something here too, but if there were enough people willing to spend the necessary money to build these things, then they would still be going up in Charlotte and the rest of the country. Remember there is unlimited demand for free items, Demand starts dropping off greatly when money starts getting involved. Like above this pudding is cooked too.

[uptownliving]

Maybe, maybe not. There are far far far more people living in these situations vs 50+ story towers. Again the proof is in the pudding as that alone speaks to the practicality of the different situations.

Do you think the city should put a cap on the height of residential buildings in downtown? You seem to like the 25 story height. Should we cap all residential buildings at 25 stories?

[Charlotte_native]

In regards to demand. I have never seen high demand projects, not get built in Charlotte. Maybe I am missing something here too, but if there were enough people willing to spend the necessary money to build these things, then they would still be going up in Charlotte and the rest of the country. Remember there is unlimited demand for free items, Demand starts dropping off greatly when money starts getting involved. Like above this pudding is cooked too.

Once again, loss of large commercial tenant, banking woes across the nation that i think there is a thread about on here 'things are not looking so good at the banks', and plenty of other reasons that have nothing to do with whether buyers lined up to buy them (which they did).

I have never seen high demand projects, not get built in Charlotte <-- i haven't either but i've never seen a huge mortgage lending meltdown combined with falling stocks and an overall faltering economy.

Maybe, maybe not. There are far far far more people living in these situations vs 50+ story towers. Again the proof is in the pudding as that alone speaks to the practicality of the different situations.

So because they live there proves praticality? There are many reasons that many have written about why suburban living is very impractical, is a waste of land and resources, damaging to the environment -- I've often seen you write about it. I'm not saying these places shouldn't exist, but that doesn't mean they are practical just because they are there and people have moved to them.

Lots of people bought Hummers, but few consider them practical.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Charlotte_native

[monsoon]

Do you think the city should put a cap on the height of residential buildings in downtown? You seem to like the 25 story height. Should we cap all residential buildings at 25 stories?

Why? I doubt we are going to see any additional buildings that would exceed this height anytime soon. As some have expressed here on this forum, living in these places isn't all it's cracked up to be. Charlotte in general just hasn't learned that yet.

[Charlotte_native]

I doubt we are going to see any additional buildings that would exceed this height anytime soon.

Certainly not until the banking/lending mess is cleaned up and the market is back to being directed by demand and not 'other' influences like recession and lack of banks wanting to fund anything new (or having the ability to do so).

[AuLukey]

Do you think the city should put a cap on the height of residential buildings in downtown? You seem to like the 25 story height. Should we cap all residential buildings at 25 stories?

I don't think there would be a purpose to doing that. It wouldn't change anything at all. Mostly because if you look at how a lot of these developments are being marketed, a lot of them are mixed-use because they have a few floors of office. Thus, the city would be hard-pressed to enforce such a cap as there would be many loopholes. Not to mention that it's not for the city to decide what kinds of towers people want to live in. Like you said, there are certain compromises behind living in the burbs, living in a tower, or living in a highrise tower. It's all about what's more important. I think the Avenue is a good mixture of everything. It is next to a cemetery, so fat chance of your view getting blocked, it's facing away from uptown, but that will change as uptown grows, new towers will be built within Avenue's outward view; it isn't too tall as to sacrifice convenience, has plenty of amenities around, etc.

[monsoon]

Certainly not until the banking/lending mess is cleaned up and the market is back to being directed by demand and not 'other' influences like recession and lack of banks wanting to fund anything new (or having the ability to do so).

Well..... If "The Market" had been functioning properly we would have never seen real estate prices rise like they did over the past 6-7 years in the absence of an equivalent rise in household income. (which has actually dropped) It was a bad bubble that has now popped and we are not likely to see it again. It amazes me that people believe what we have been through over the last 1/2 decade is typical when in fact there has been nothing like it in US history. 50+ story skyscrapers simply don't exist at the price points that we should be seeing in Charlotte and we are in fact seeing it start to be played out here like it already has in so many cities in the USA.

[Neo]

* Please start a new topic relating to the viability of high rises in general if anyone wants to continue this general conversation. This particular topic is for The Vue project and not for discussing why on Earth anyone would want to live in a high-rise over 25 floors.

[rockhilljames]

Any word on whether the Vue is going to keep the spires or not?

[Charlotte_native]

Any word on whether the Vue is going to keep the spires or not?

Some of The Vue sales folk watch this thread...maybe they'll let us know

[monsoon]

The sign in front of the building site and their website shows a building without spires. I thought this was common knowledge at this point.

[jms54]

There will not be any spires and that was decided about 1 year ago. The construction is zooming along.

[rockhilljames]

Man, I was just asking. A simple no would have sufficed.

Put me down as wishing they'd bring them back.

[AuLukey]

There will not be any spires and that was decided about 1 year ago. The construction is zooming along.

I know! I walked by the site today with my friend and I'm amazed how far along they've gotten already. They were doing a whole lot of pouring around 5:30pm.

[Spartan]

Can you reference a credible soure? or please give some basis for your denouncing of this sales manager delivered information?

Until we have hard facts that there is no retail in the Vue, I'm assuming that there is given the statement below (and others like it in this thread). I have a hard time believing that a building with this many units would not have some sort of retail in the bottom- even if its just a dry cleaners.

The Three Retail units all have there own entrances. The VUE is still considered a single use Residential building as the retail doesn't use the Lobby entrance.

[sleightofhand]

Some of The Vue sales folk watch this thread...maybe they'll let us know

The spires were going to cost more than one million dollars a piece. Needless to say they were scrapped from the plans. This is one of the things the previous developer never even priced.