Providence Sports

[mental757]

even at near 15000, there is hope for a Arena Football League 2 team in years to come...

[Lone Ranger]

In such a small city, and so close to a pre-existing NFL franchise? I dunno about that.

I don't know a thing about arena football, but looking at their website, I guess your proposal is possible. Grand Rapids is a city/metro comparable to Providence in population. Las Vegas has a relatively small pop. New Orleans, Nashville & Austin have comparable metros to Providence (but all are much larger cities in terms of pop. than Providence).

Nashville also has the Titans, so I guess it's entirely possible for an Arena League team to coexist in a relatively small market with an NFL team. What do I know?

[Baines]

In such a small city, and so close to a pre-existing NFL franchise? I dunno about that.

I don't know a thing about arena football, but looking at their website, I guess your proposal is possible. Grand Rapids is a city/metro comparable to Providence in population. Las Vegas has a relatively small pop. New Orleans, Nashville & Austin have comparable metros to Providence (but all are much larger cities in terms of pop. than Providence).

Nashville also has the Titans, so I guess it's entirely possible for an Arena League team to coexist in a relatively small market with an NFL team. What do I know?

I would not describe Providence as a "small city" (actually it is classed as "big" in a pop matrix I found last year-goes from small to major) and moreover with one of the nation's most desely populated large metros; it is very feasable.

I would not cite those 3 cities as "much" larger than PVD. As to New Orleans; my LA state contacts expect that city to have a 40% permanent (10 yrs) population reduction starting now. Major league football and basketball future Their are in doubt.

Let me cite Tampa...it is larger than PVD (not much) but all of it's teams are dependant on the metro-not the city-hence, Tampa Bay Bucs, Devil Rays, Lightning and an Arena Football team.

Based on a quick population calculation, PVD can handle it's NFL team (with help from BOS) and an Arena team (they are all modest but exciting diversions from the NFL).

[Lone Ranger]

I would not cite those 3 cities as "much" larger than PVD. As to New Orleans; my LA state contacts expect that city to have a 40% permanent (10 yrs) population reduction starting now. Major league football and basketball future Their are in doubt.

All 3 cities have several times the population Providence has. Than again, as I said, their metros are the same size as ours in Providence. But I tend to think that actual (that is, in-city) population is pretty important. Metro counts too, but obviously the more people in close proximity to the athletic franchise in question, the better its situation.

I keep a Devil Rays blog. I'm well aware that the Tampa Bay market is dependent on no one city. But again, both Tampa & St. Pete have larger individual populations than PVD, and the metro area has about 600K more people than Providence's. Plus, Florida is a very densely populated state in general (and still growing), and Orlando isn't very far away, either.

Not sure TB is a comparable situation.

[brick]

All 3 cities have several times the population Providence has. Than again, as I said, their metros are the same size as ours in Providence. But I tend to think that actual (that is, in-city) population is pretty important. Metro counts too, but obviously the more people in close proximity to the athletic franchise in question, the better its situation.

I keep a Devil Rays blog. I'm well aware that the Tampa Bay market is dependent on no one city. But again, both Tampa & St. Pete have larger individual populations than PVD, and the metro area has about 600K more people than Providence's. Plus, Florida is a very densely populated state in general (and still growing), and Orlando isn't very far away, either.

Not sure TB is a comparable situation.

I think the suggestion was for Arena Football 2 which is like a minor league. AF2 home

Green Bay has a team to go along with their NFL franchise. Some other markets are places like Albany and Manchester NH. I'd be more concerned with whether NE'ers care enough about football to support the team rather than worrying about the MSA.

As for the DRays, ya'll should hope Hunsicker can get them straightened out. They have a good young core coming along, but they need to do things like trade Lugo for something reasonable rather than holding out for other teams best prospects. I think the Zambrano-Kazmir deal spoiled them forever. Not everyone is as desperate as Jim Duquette.

[eltron]

I keep a Devil Rays blog.

Oh you poor, poor guy (or gal, who knows?).

Getting Marte for a year of Lugo is foolish beyond comprehension. I've gotta agree with Brick, Kazmir was a once in a lifetime deal...(and wasn't that deal Steve Phillips, not Duquette?)

[mental757]

PVD could easily support an AF2 team, maybe even a full fledged AF Team. We had the Steamrollers years ago before that version of the league went bankrupt. A revitalized Dunk, the renaissance, and large densly populated area of RI is ripe for something like this. I could even see a NL baseball team here in 10-20 years...

[DaveRPI]

"All 3 cities have several times the population Providence has. Than again, as I said, their metros are the same size as ours in Providence. But I tend to think that actual (that is, in-city) population is pretty important. Metro counts too, but obviously the more people in close proximity to the athletic franchise in question, the better its situation.

I keep a Devil Rays blog. I'm well aware that the Tampa Bay market is dependent on no one city. But again, both Tampa & St. Pete have larger individual populations than PVD, and the metro area has about 600K more people than Providence's. Plus, Florida is a very densely populated state in general (and still growing), and Orlando isn't very far away, either.

Not sure TB is a comparable situation."

>>> I think you're way off base

florida is not as dense as RI in any way, look at density per sq. mile figures, and then factor in that our metro area overlaps about 5 others and the population within 100 miles is ridiculously larger than any area of florida

FL is a grid-plan spread-out state designed basically like one giant suburb out in the midwest, except it has palm trees, sand and water on 3 sides...

read the posts in here on how louisville? and jacksonville? annexed their suburbs to "APPEAR" larger than they really are and then you'll understand the importance of what you're saying

I worked in the front office for the arena league team in albany during college, they'd have some good games and get about 8,000 fans in the HUGE pepsi arena>> lil over 15k seating, which never sells out for anything except maybe a pearl jam or country concert

heck, siena and the river rats have to cover the upper deck with curtains so it appears to be smaller for their games

that said, the difference between florida and providence that you SHOULD focus on is the fact the Football is 100 times as popular among the general population of FLorida than the people in New England... sure, everyone loves to jump on the PATS bandwagon now, but these people play football and baseball year round down there and they pack in stadiums as big as the dunk for their HIGH SCHOOL football games- never mind the major college and pro games... you could put it in the same category as a Texas or California as far as football interest goes

another point you should focus on with arena football's viability is the general level of competition on its local high school and college teams, a big draw and supply of players for the arena teams are local football heros because they do not get paid much and need to live in the area and have other jobs... that said, you can count the amount of high level prospects coming out of RI football on one hand. Eastern Mass has 10 times the level of competition on its high school and college teams than that of all of RI and that barely puts Mass in the middle ranks as far as the whole country goes...

so minor league football is tricky in the northeast, there are a lot of diversions for the local fan and they have to basically target kids as their main fans who as you know have a lot of distractions on their own- school, sports, video games, etc etc

like any city that is similar to Providence, they can support the team, but its gotta keep putting out a winner who stays in the playoff hunt every year...

ok way to long on this thing today... gtg back to work

peace I'm outta here

[Lone Ranger]

Aaah, see I didn't know there was a minor-league AFL. I thought it was the minor league.

That would make a difference.

BTW, yes it was Duquette. And yes, the Rays always ask for too much in trades. It frustrates me. Although Julio Lugo is a wildly underrated ballplayer.

But Providence would have to grow an immense (impossible?) amount to be able to support a major-league baseball team. 81 home games a year, that's a lot of seats to fill ...

[mental757]

Plantations?

resurrect one of the old team names:

The Grays (MLB - PVD won the first ever world series from what I was told)

The RI Reds (as long it's not a MLB team since CVG already has that one)

how about a nautical theme:

The 'Anglers'

from our colonial roots:

The Providence 'Militia'

The Providence 'Rebellion' (aka the "Gaspee Men" - the stadium/arena could be called "the Cove")

Our Jewerly manufacturing days:

The Providence 'Gold'

[mental757]

Aaah, see I didn't know there was a minor-league AFL. I thought it was the minor league.

That would make a difference.

BTW, yes it was Duquette. And yes, the Rays always ask for too much in trades. It frustrates me. Although Julio Lugo is a wildly underrated ballplayer.

But Providence would have to grow an immense (impossible?) amount to be able to support a major-league baseball team. 81 home games a year, that's a lot of seats to fill ...

Its the entire State and area that would attend these games, not just the city. The Pats games have been sold out for like 10 years and there is 50,000 deep waiting list for season tickets. The Red Sox games are almost always sold out and they have the highest ticket prices in the league. A sports team located in Providence would draw from the Cape to Hartford and up to Worcester (at least). I don't think it would be that difficult to do. If a brand new team were to move here, the initial ticket prices would probably be half of that of the Sox/Pats. I'd personnaly bu 2 season tickest to a MLB team if they came and I bet there are thousands of other people liie me who'd rather get season tickets to a true "home" team than trek to BOS to pay exorbiant prices for a seat a couple beers!

[provid]

" almost always sold out "

The sox have been sold out for more than 3 years.

[brick]

If a brand new team were to move here, the initial ticket prices would probably be half of that of the Sox/Pats. I'd personnaly bu 2 season tickest to a MLB team if they came and I bet there are thousands of other people liie me who'd rather get season tickets to a true "home" team than trek to BOS to pay exorbiant prices for a seat a couple beers!

I would buy tickets also.

However, this is a pipe dream. At least until Congress removes the anti-trust exemption from MLB, there will never be a team in Providence. Look how long it took for DC to get another team. A large part of that was Peter Angelos trying to keep his baseball monopoly in DelMarVa.

Get rid of the anti-trust and then someone could buy the Marlins, build a stadium, and move them. Good luck with that, though.

[mental757]

" almost always sold out "

The sox have been sold out for more than 3 years.

Thanks for the correction - I wasn't sure and didn't want to overstae the facts! Plays right into my point though...

I would buy tickets also.

However, this is a pipe dream. At least until Congress removes the anti-trust exemption from MLB, there will never be a team in Providence. Look how long it took for DC to get another team. A large part of that was Peter Angelos trying to keep his baseball monopoly in DelMarVa.

Get rid of the anti-trust and then someone could buy the Marlins, build a stadium, and move them. Good luck with that, though.

I realize that too. I'm speaking more of the feasibility of having a team here versus it actually happening...

[Lone Ranger]

Its the entire State and area that would attend these games, not just the city. The Pats games have been sold out for like 10 years and there is 50,000 deep waiting list for season tickets. The Red Sox games are almost always sold out and they have the highest ticket prices in the league. A sports team located in Providence would draw from the Cape to Hartford and up to Worcester (at least). I don't think it would be that difficult to do. If a brand new team were to move here, the initial ticket prices would probably be half of that of the Sox/Pats. I'd personnaly bu 2 season tickest to a MLB team if they came and I bet there are thousands of other people liie me who'd rather get season tickets to a true "home" team than trek to BOS to pay exorbiant prices for a seat a couple beers!

For a well-established team, sure. But I think you're making the wrong comparisons, here. For the team in question, a better comp would be the PawSox or the P-Bruins.

And I hafta wonder: how many people come from the Cape to watch the P-Bruins?

The Red Sox are glamorous. The Pats are glamorous. I go to McCoy as often as I can because I love the place, but I'll tell ya what, if situations were reversed and the Red Sox were located in Providence rather than Boston and the PawSox were located in Boston rather than Pawtucket, I would probably attend ... once a year? At most? And I'm a baseball fanatic ...

And furthermore, the Red Sox & Pats have history. The Celts have history ... if little else. Even the Bruins have history. And the PawSox. And PC's men's basketball program. History. They've been around for decades. That helps in the lean years. History=fond memories. And fond memories keep people interested in the team even when they're not in contention every year: it gives you a solid core of fans who will keep coming back, no matter what. What kind of history is this new team going to have? None whatsoever.

I'm not saying that a arena league team wouldn't (or would) draw here. I'm just trying to take a ... I dunno, conservative approach, I guess.

However, one thing worth pointing out is that this is a football team we're talking about, and football teams (because of the physical hardships of the sport) rarely play a lot of games. I'm looking at the AF2 website, and it looks like these teams play a 17-game season. Thus, we're only talking about 8 or 9 home dates that an AF2 team would need to fill.

That's not counting the playoffs, BTW. But filling seats is never a problem in the playoffs. Unless you're the Atlanta Braves.

Aaaanyways, a baseball team has 70-80 home dates to fill, depending on the level (AA, A, AAA, etc) of competition. That, I think, is probably too much to expect from a city of 130,000 people, metro or no metro. I dunno how many games are in the AHL season, but I'm guessing the P-Bruins play about a 70-game season, which means approx. 35 home dates. From that point of view, a semi-pro football team could be a realistic option, I guess ...

[Baines]

For a well-established team, sure. But I think you're making the wrong comparisons, here. For the team in question, a better comp would be the PawSox or the P-Bruins.

Anaaanyways, a baseball team has 70-80 home dates to fill, depending on the level (AA, A, AAA, etc) of competition. That, I think, is probably too much to expect from a city of 130,000 people, metro or no metro. I dunno how many games are in the AHL season, but I'm guessing the P-Bruins play about a 70-game season, which means approx. 35 home dates. From that point of view, a semi-pro football team could be a realistic option, I guess ...

130,000??...PVD is 180,000.

There are two real big-business factors that have not been recognized here...

First, there is little chance of any expansion of MBL due to overextension already (ie- they are in trouble in Tampa Bay and Miami) and very unlikely in PVD because of the proximity to BOS.

Second, since Patriots play in the PVD Metro, any other "season" competitor (regardless of sport) is dead.

The same holds true with the Celts and Bruins. They either play in BOS or PVD.

The BOS-3 to PVD-1 is right on target with the population ratio. So, that leaves arena football as the only hope for a new sport in PVD.

[Lone Ranger]

130,000??...PVD is 180,000.

Quite right. That's what I get for quoting numbers off the top of my head.

[Cotuit]

There is talk among sports people that Boston and New York should each have another MLB team (though I don't know where the fan base would come from for an NYC team). Something about the economics of the two cities when compared to other metros with mutiple teams leads to the conclusion that Boston should have two teams. That second team could be located in Providence.

Of course an economic reality is far different than trying to carve a fan base out of the current Red Sox base, though if they get back on their 86 year pattern...

[brick]

There is talk among sports people that Boston and New York should each have another MLB team (though I don't know where the fan base would come from for an NYC team). Something about the economics of the two cities when compared to other metros with mutiple teams leads to the conclusion that Boston should have two teams. That second team could be located in Providence.

Of course an economic reality is far different than trying to carve a fan base out of the current Red Sox base, though if they get back on their 86 year pattern...

New York should have three teams. They can probably support four. New York Metro is huge so it wouldn't neecessarily be in Manhattan or even LI like the Mets. Northern New Jersey like Jersey City or SE CT probably have enough people around to support a team. Remember until the Giants and Dodgers moved to CA, NY had 3 teams, and that was when there were only 16 teams. Now there are 30 and NY has only 2.

If you add up the Yankees and the Mets revenue it is higher than something like the bottom 12 teams in MLB. A third team in NY would add to the competition.

A second team in the Boston metro is the same story. Obviously, I have a personal preference stake, but I do think that without anti-trust and with a thoughtful look at sources, an NL team for Boston (be it in Providence or not but it would certainly be nice if it were in the Providence Metro) and an AL team in Northern NJ or West Chester County NY or Fairfield County CT would probably be successful. For Providence to beat out Boston for a location, though, I think they would need to provide the stadium, which isn't necessarily a good idea. Actually, it's a pretty bad one. What they would really need is a RI benefactor who is a huge baseball fan to buy a franchise, build a stadium, and move the team. If I had a couple billion or so I would seriously consider it. But, again, I'm biased.

I do have more faith that a third NY team would be successful. However I would imagine that they would try to make it more metro and put it back in Brooklyn.

[Cotuit]

What they would really need is a RI benefactor who is a huge baseball fan to buy a franchise, build a stadium, and move the team. If I had a couple billion or so I would seriously consider it. But, again, I'm biased.

There are lots of things it would be nice to have wealthy benefactors for, which brings us back to the economic climate in the state and the fact that we don't have many CEOs hanging around. Maybe the Farelley Brothers could build a stadium.

[mental757]

Maybe the Providence Equity Group could fit the billing. That same report Cotuit mentions is where I heard of the 2nd baseball team in the New England came from. I think we have a fair cahnce if it ever got that far...

I'm not sure the State would have to provide an actual stadium. If they offered long term tax breaks/incentives, etc. an owner could make it financially work. The State would still collect a lot of new tax money that otherwise wouldn't be there. Remember a new or relocated team will want to be in a place where people will go to these games, and unlike Ranger, I think PVD/RI/SENE could do it easily!

[brick]

Maybe the Providence Equity Group could fit the billing. That same report Cotuit mentions is where I heard of the 2nd baseball team in the New England came from. I think we have a fair cahnce if it ever got that far...

I'm not sure the State would have to provide an actual stadium. If they offered long term tax breaks/incentives, etc. an owner could make it financially work. The State would still collect a lot of new tax money that otherwise wouldn't be there. Remember a new or relocated team will want to be in a place where people will go to these games, and unlike Ranger, I think PVD/RI/SENE could do it easily!

Stadiums are not the revenue drivers that some people think they are. I will dig up some articles a little later. I think sinking money into tax breaks for a stadium are much better than doing the same thing for a casino, though.

As I mentioned in the sports thread (that's probably where all this belongs anyway) with the soccer stadium, ideally you would use a brownfields area on the bay for a stadium. You would need some kind of protection for the run-off from the parking lots and whatever but it's doable. You could set it up with a view of the downtown skyline pretty easily. I just don't know if there are parcels like this available. I guess on the EProv side actually and that would be a great location infrastructure-wise. Though I'd rather see it along Allens Ave.

However the way the MSA is concentrated, it would probably (not definitely, though) make more sense to have the second team also be inside of the 128 loop.

[Lone Ranger]

As far as a baseball team in PVD goes, no way. First they'd have to compete with the Red Sox. Then they'd have to compete with the Yankees, who also have a fairly large following here. Then they'd have to compete (as far as filling seats) with the PawSox. Which is a problem. There are only so many butts around here to put in those seats.

I'm going to list all of the cities that have teams in MLB, first by the size of their metro, then by the size of their actual population. And I'll use an asterisk to make note of the metros that support two teams: no metro currently supports more than two. All of my figures are going to come from Emporis. And I promise, I won't quote any numbers off the top of my head this time.

Metro

New York City*: 21,923,089

Los Angeles/Anaheim*: 17,516,110

Chicago*: 9,608,458

Washington, D.C./Baltimore*: 8,052,496

Oakland/SF*: 7,159,693

Philadelphia: 5,951,797

Boston: 5,809,111

Arlington/Dallas/Ft. Worth: 5,784,645

Detroit: 5,425,588

Miami: 5,361,723

Houston: 5,176,061

Atlanta: 5,125,726

Toronto: 5,101,600

Seattle: 3,763,569

Phoenix: 3,715,360

Minneapolis/St. Paul: 3,437,464

Cleveland: 2,942,303

San Diego: 2,931,714

St. Louis: 2,832,204

Pittsburgh: 2,494,949

Cincinnati: 2,100,501

Tampa/St. Pete: 2,587,967

Denver: 2,609,063

Kansas City (MO): 1,992,836

Milwaukee: 1,709,926

Providence: 1,628,080

In-City Population

New York City: 8,168,338

Los Angeles: 3,845,541

Chicago: 2,862,244

Toronto: 2,481,494

Houston: 2,012,626

Phoenix: 1,418,041

Philadelphia: 1,470,151

San Diego: 1,263,756

Detroit: 900,198

San Francisco: 744,230

Baltimore: 641,943

Milwaukee: 583,624

Seattle: 572,600

Boston: 569,165

Denver: 556,835

Washington, D.C.: 550,521

Cleveland: 458,684

Kansas City (MO): 444,387

Atlanta: 419,122

Oakland: 397,976

Miami: 379,724

Minneapolis: 373,943

Arlington: 355,007

St. Louis: 350,705

Anaheim: 333,776

Pittsburgh: 322,450

Cincinnati: 314,154

St. Petersburg: 249,090

Providence: 178,126

As you can see, by both measures, we'd be the smallest MLB city. By in-city population, we're absolutely dwarfed bay all of these cities, especially if you consider that Tampa Bay/St. Pete/Clearwater represent a continuous urban area -- just like the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.

It would be like putting two Providences side-by-side. If that were the case here, we would probably have our own pro baseball team already.

Actually, I'm surprised how close the competition is (with, say, Milwaukee's metro). But proximity is key: Milwaukee survives as a baseball team almost despite their metro, not because of it. They live off their in-city population, which is several times ours, as you can see.

And then again, who wants a baseball team if it's just going to be a Milwaukee or a Kansas City? Yes part of the problem those franchises have is that they've been badly run. But on the other hand, both franchises have an extremely small margin of error. Neither franchise is well-endowed financially. But every team makes mistakes. The Red Sox have made plenty of them, even these last few years when they've been extremely well-run. Teams like Kansas City, though, can't afford to make mistakes. They make a mistake like the Red Sox made with Byung-Hyun Kim or Ramiro Mendoza, and that's a significant portion of their payroll. For the Red Sox, it's just a small fraction of their resources -- a drop in the bucket.

After thinking about it, I'm pretty sure that PVD can in fact support an AF2 (or AFL) team. But no way am I buying that PVD could support a MLB franchise.

If Warwick, Pawtucket, and my own dear Cranston were all hot markets, attracting businesses and adding population, maybe. But actually, all three cities are kinda ... backwards. And until they all get in line, Providence is too small and its metro is too disparate for me to believe we have a real chance at a big-league baseball team of our own.

[Johnzo]

Hi everyone. This is my first post, so please forgive me for any rookie mistakes. I'm amazed at the number of people who are interested in the same kinds of city-topics as I am.

Don't get me wrong, I am a sports fan at heart. However, for Providence, I really don't think MLB or NFL is the answer. Part of me can't see the point of building a stadium that would sit unused for half of the year. I remember when there was talk of the Patriots building a stadium downtown. I'm not sure that that would have been the best thing for the city. Sure, it would have been great to have 70,000 people downtown on eight Sundays in the fall (10 counting preseason), and certainly there would have been concerts and soccer games, but we'd be talking about 25 dates a year or so when the stadium was actually hosting an event. What about the other 340 days in the year? Also, what could be done with an MLB ballpark between the months of Oct-Mar?

That being said, I think multi-purpose arenas are the way to go. These venues would operate year-round, and can also attract major events. Therefore, if Providence were to pursue a major league team, NBA or NHL would be a better option. Personally, I think NBA would be the better of the two, as a team in that league can co-exist with the Friars, PawSox, P-Bruins, and even arena football. However, the Dunk is not suited for major-league sports, even post-renovation, so a major league team could be a pipe dream.

[mod134]

Here are some ideas for sports teams.

I agree that we need to bring back the Reds name - maybe for an MLS franchise - but the name New England Revolution works well with our roots and have the Patriots over in Foxboro.

How about this either for AFL or MLB down the road? The Providence or R.I. Colonials. Perhaps even bring back the Steamrollers moniker which was used for our old AFL, NBA and NFL franchises.