Music City Center, 1.2 million sq. ft., $623 million

[MidTenn1]

I don't have a dog in this hunt as I don't live in the County, so I don't have a taxpayers perspective on this. But...

Korean Veterans Parkway will be extended and terminated as 'an expensive' roundabout at 8th. The costs of the road will include expensive utility relocation and upgrades which will be necessary to supply the new center. I suspect these costs willl be buried in the costs of the road and not included in the talley for the Center itself. Some of the costs may be passed on to the Utilties themselves and ultimately paid for by their customers.

You can argue that the road was going to be built anyway, but I doubt it would have been built anytime soon without the Center coming in. So some might be inclined to add the expenses of building the road and utility work into the final total for the center in order to get a true accounting.

Politicians are clever about disguising costs of these types of projects and burying expenses in other loosely related projects. I would suspect there are other hidden 'expense dumps' associated with the project.

[jice]

I can take pics the next time I am down there if you wish?

Sure that would be good. I was going to take pics myself one of these days, lol.

I think I have an idea of what buildings are involved.. but ive never heard anyone say for sure which ones will be taken down.. and of those, dont really know which ones are worth saving and/or historical. Not that we can do much about it now.

[dmillsphoto]

Sure that would be good. I was going to take pics myself one of these days, lol.

I think I have an idea of what buildings are involved.. but ive never heard anyone say for sure which ones will be taken down.. and of those, dont really know which ones are worth saving and/or historical. Not that we can do much about it now.

Oh I can tell you the ones being torn down are nothing more than warehouses or small 1 story boxes. Most of them were built in the 40s or 50's and are rather dilapidated, short of some of the newer warehouses like the music venue/skate park.

The one question I have about demolition of buildings - what will they do with the power station at 6th and Demonbreun?

[producer2]

I don't have a dog in this hunt as I don't live in the County, so I don't have a taxpayers perspective on this. But...

Korean Veterans Parkway will be extended and terminated as 'an expensive' roundabout at 8th. The costs of the road will include expensive utility relocation and upgrades which will be necessary to supply the new center. I suspect these costs willl be buried in the costs of the road and not included in the talley for the Center itself. Some of the costs may be passed on to the Utilties themselves and ultimately paid for by their customers.

You can argue that the road was going to be built anyway, but I doubt it would have been built anytime soon without the Center coming in. So some might be inclined to add the expenses of building the road and utility work into the final total for the center in order to get a true accounting.

Politicians are clever about disguising costs of these types of projects and burying expenses in other loosely related projects. I would suspect there are other hidden 'expense dumps' associated with the project.

That would be a glass half empty or half full scenario. What Nashville will gain is KVB extended to it's natural conclusion at 8th and Lafeyette, a beautiful roundabout probably with a wonderful fountain and public space and public walkways. Cities regulary include infrastucture upgrades for all types of private and public ventures so why pick on this one. What type of help do you think Gaylord has received over the past twenty years? What do you think it cost to widen Briley Parkway?

[jice]

Oh I can tell you the ones being torn down are nothing more than warehouses or small 1 story boxes. Most of them were built in the 40s or 50's and are rather dilapidated, short of some of the newer warehouses like the music venue/skate park.

The one question I have about demolition of buildings - what will they do with the power station at 6th and Demonbreun?

Just going by a quick glance.. it seems like the building at the corner of 8th & Lafayette is halfway decent.. im assuming this one stands in the way of the roundabout plans?

I believe the power substation is being moved to inside the new convention center..

[producer2]

Just going by a quick glance.. it seems like the building at the corner of 8th & Lafayette is halfway decent.. im assuming this one stands in the way of the roundabout plans?

I believe the power substation is being moved to inside the new convention center..

At this point the NES substation is not going inside the new center. There will be an announcement soon as to its new location. MDHA is in daily discussion with NES on the solution for this. My guess is it moves closer to Lafeyette.

[samsonh]

Producer,

So convention centers across the US are struggling and have been for several years(not just in this recession). We don't even need to look out of state to find examples of this. Why is Nashville going to be different? That's a serious question. And this will be a billion dollars after the cost of the hotel is factored in. And I have not even mentioned the opportunity cost of buying up land that is primed for development over the next 10-20 years and sticking a rather ugly building there.

So you would let Metro build this facility at the price they say it will cost. I have yet to see Metro do something that didn't have significant costs hidden somewhere or misjudged completely. You also assume that business will pick back up, despite the fact that many believe the recovery from this recession will be L-shaped(not a good thing!). As someone who lives very close to this site(although not as close as you Producer), I want there to be more thought and study. And the study needs to come from multiple sources who have NO vested interest either way.

[producer2]

We need to be sure we are talking apples to apples here. Are you saying some convention centers need financial help to make operating budget or are you saying the industry (meetings and conventions and tourism) is and has been decaying? There is a big difference. Most opponents point only to shortages in operating budgets as a way of saying Centers are failing or that they have not met "projections." This does not mean that the industry is failing or that cities are not making money from meetings or tourism. The centers themselves are not big profit generating streams, they are simply the catalyst to get the money into the city. Once there it is spent in a variety of ways that benefits the city through tax collections, jobs, etc. Can you provide your information that states where and how these centers are struggling? I would be happy to discuss once I have a better understanding of what question you wnat answered.

[samsonh]

I think the problem is two fold. One, there is an over abundance of convention center space. How is Nashville going to differentiate our center. Are we going to simply give the space away to get the bookings? I am from Nashville and think it is a unique and fantastic city, but what is it about our city that will draw the bigger conventions they want?

Second, travel budgets are being knocked down everywhere. And this trend could possibly continue for another decade, no one knows. Especially since we now have a President who is castigating companies for their travel habits.

And as I mentioned before, I have absolutely no faith in the cost estimates for the center. I believe the actual cost will end up being at least 10-15% higher then is now being publicized. I also fear that the operating costs and upkeep on the center will be underestimated, as they were with both the Sommet Center and LP Field.

And finally, they keep talking about the jobs this center will create. These are not well paying jobs for the most part. They are hotel jobs, maintenance jobs, and serving jobs. Is that what we want? Hypothetically, which do you think would have a bigger impact? We used the $650 million to lure companies to the city, using that money to defray their moving costs and providing incentives, or we built the MCC.

Edited May 15, 2009 by samsonh

[nashvylle]

I think the problem is two fold. One, there is an over abundance of convention center space. How is Nashville going to differentiate our center. Are we going to simply give the space away to get the bookings? I am from Nashville and think it is a unique and fantastic city, but what is it about our city that will draw the bigger conventions they want?

Second, travel budgets are being knocked down everywhere. And this trend could possibly continue for another decade, no one knows. Especially since we now have a President who is castigating companies for their travel habits.

And as I mentioned before, I have absolutely no faith in the cost estimates for the center. I believe the actual cost will end up being at least 10-15% higher then is now being publicized. I also fear that the operating costs and upkeep on the center will be underestimated, as they were with both the Sommet Center and LP Field.

And finally, they keep talking about the jobs this center will create. These are not well paying jobs for the most part. They are hotel jobs, maintenance jobs, and serving jobs. Is that what we want? Hypothetically, which do you think would have a bigger impact? We used the $650 million to lure companies to the city, using that money to defray their moving costs and providing incentives, or we built the MCC.

good points. However, remember construction costs are as low as they have been in years because of the housing crisis; therefore, don't be surprised if the total cost is at or even below the estimate.

Second, I would love to use 650 MM to lure companies to DOWNTOWN Nashville. However, the hotel/motel fund using to finance the center can only be used for the MCC (as stated in law). We cannot simply transfer the money.

[jdavidf]

I think the problem is two fold. One, there is an over abundance of convention center space. How is Nashville going to differentiate our center. Are we going to simply give the space away to get the bookings? I am from Nashville and think it is a unique and fantastic city, but what is it about our city that will draw the bigger conventions they want?

I may be mistaken, but isn't there evidence that companies/organizations are bypassing Nashville due to the inadequacies of our current center? If that's true, then wouldn't that pretty well answer this question? If you're turning away business with your current setup, doesn't it stand that a bigger and better setup (paid for by tourists and attendees) will allow you to stop turning away that business? And won't success breed success?

[producer2]

I may be mistaken, but isn't there evidence that companies/organizations are bypassing Nashville due to the inadequacies of our current center? If that's true, then wouldn't that pretty well answer this question? If you're turning away business with your current setup, doesn't it stand that a bigger and better setup (paid for by tourists and attendees) will allow you to stop turning away that business? And won't success breed success?

You are correct in your statement about the current center. The MCC will not be a space competing for the largest meetings just one that will be able to compete for those that are truly interested in Nashville as a destination. As for Nashville, I think it is always harder for those who live here to sometimes see the city for the brand it is, Music City. That brand is strong and people want to come experience it. Where else can you see Vince Gill at Starbucks or Sheryl Crow or Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban, and on and on. There is a charm about the city and it's people that visitors really love. And in the end it is an inexpensive place to come and do business. There are groups lined up to sign on, they are just waiting for approval for it to be built. Watch what hapens when that approval comes....

Edited May 16, 2009 by producer2

[jdavidf]

You are correct in your statement about the current center. The MCC will not be a space competing for the largest meetings just one that will be able to compete for those that are truly interested in Nashville as a destination. As for Nashville, I think it is always harder for those who live here to sometimes see the city for the brand it is, Music City. That brand is strong and people want to come experience it. Where else can you see Vince Gill at Starbucks or Sheryl Crow or Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban, and on and on. There is a charm about the city and it's people that visitors really love. And in the end it is an inexpensive place to come and do business. There are groups lined up to sign on, they are just waiting for approval for it to be built. Watch what hapens when that approval comes....

I think (and I have no basis for this other than intuition) that no matter what city you live in, you don't necessarily see the attraction to your home town that visitors see.. I 'know' Nashville is a great destination (it's "the" Music City, after all)... but even I have a challenge understanding what it is about us that generates so many billions of dollars in tourism. Sometimes, maybe we're just too close to be able to get a true perspective. Sometimes we really can't see the woods for the trees.

[producer2]

I think (and I have no basis for this other than intuition) that no matter what city you live in, you don't necessarily see the attraction to your home town that visitors see.. I 'know' Nashville is a great destination (it's "the" Music City, after all)... but even I have a challenge understanding what it is about us that generates so many billions of dollars in tourism. Sometimes, maybe we're just too close to be able to get a true perspective. Sometimes we really can't see the woods for the trees.

For meeting planners it is two-fold. They get a destination that most of their attendees like at a price they can make work within their budgets. It (Nashville) is not ever going to be New York or Chicago, etc. BUT where else can you go and get great entertainment with lots to do for half (or more) of the cost of going to those cities? Also the lack of major Unions in terms of costs associated with move in/ out , tradshow and general session labor is quite attractive. For events i have done in cities like Chicago and Philly for example our labor bill for the General Session alone have been in the $60,000 range, in Nashville for the same show, same labor closer to $30,000, and I suspect the folks doing the actual work are getting paid close to the same wages!

Edited May 17, 2009 by producer2

[FromParkAveToTN]

I heard on the news this morning that there's another proposed Convention Center for the Healthcare industry. Apparently, this convention center is going to be the same size as the Music City Center (1.2 million sq ft), but will be developed to attract conventions only for the healthcare industry.

[nashvylle]

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090518...enter+land+plan

First of 3.

Edited May 19, 2009 by nashvylle

[producer2]

I heard on the news this morning that there's another proposed Convention Center for the Healthcare industry. Apparently, this convention center is going to be the same size as the Music City Center (1.2 million sq ft), but will be developed to attract conventions only for the healthcare industry.

Bing it on. The MCC is not paid for by folks in the building but by folks in hotel rooms. The more the merrier!

[samsonh]

Bing it on. The MCC is not paid for by folks in the building but by folks in hotel rooms. The more the merrier!

Really this is a bit of a falsehood. Any dollar taken away from a tourist is a dollar not spent in town. Plus many hotel rooms are taken by locals not using the center. I truly believe people are catching on to how bad the financing is for this center.

[producer2]

Really this is a bit of a falsehood. Any dollar taken away from a tourist is a dollar not spent in town. Plus many hotel rooms are taken by locals not using the center. I truly believe people are catching on to how bad the financing is for this center.

Really, how do you get to that conclusion? Would you agree that at least 90% of the folks in hotel rooms are here for either business, meetings, or tourism? If so and you do not have the facilities to keep them coming here how do they spend any money in town? It is purely supply and demand. I guess the council vote last night shows they don't think it is a bad idea.

[samsonh]

Really, how do you get to that conclusion? Would you agree that at least 90% of the folks in hotel rooms are here for either business, meetings, or tourism? If so and you do not have the facilities to keep them coming here how do they spend any money in town? It is purely supply and demand. I guess the council vote last night shows they don't think it is a bad idea.

To your first point, imagine this scenario. I take a trip on a budget of $1000 exactly. And I plan on spending it all. If my hotel taxes eat up $10-20 more of my budget during the course of my trip, that is money that won't be spent at a restaurant or honky tonk or wherever.

As to the fact that Metro Council approved the land purchase, I wouldn't trust Metro Council to balance my checkbook. People I know that live in Metro and pay taxes have very mixed views about this. I am not totally opposed, and think it could be a great thing if done correctly. But as I have said before I feel the location of the center is poor if you consider growth of downtown in the long run, and I feel the timing is poor for a variety of reasons. I just hate seeing land that could be an active urban core in the next 10-20 years be eaten up by a behemoth that will mainly be used by tourists.

Also, a quote from the Tennessean's article today about the land purchase:

"Tonight we stand on the brink of progress and moving forward," Councilman Sam Coleman of Antioch said before the vote.

......

Councilman Robert Duvall, who represents another part of Antioch, said his constituents are overwhelmingly opposed to buying land before knowing how the city would pay for the facility.

It seems one councilman is listening to his constituents and another is not.

Edited May 20, 2009 by samsonh

[producer2]

To your first point, imagine this scenario. I take a trip on a budget of $1000 exactly. And I plan on spending it all. If my hotel taxes eat up $10-20 more of my budget during the course of my trip, that is money that won't be spent at a restaurant or honky tonk or wherever.

As to the fact that Metro Council approved the land purchase, I wouldn't trust Metro Council to balance my checkbook. People I know that live in Metro and pay taxes have very mixed views about this. I am not totally opposed, and think it could be a great thing if done correctly. But as I have said before I feel the location of the center is poor if you consider growth of downtown in the long run, and I feel the timing is poor for a variety of reasons. I just hate seeing land that could be an active urban core in the next 10-20 years be eaten up by a behemoth that will mainly be used by tourists.

Also, a quote from the Tennessean's article today about the land purchase:

"Tonight we stand on the brink of progress and moving forward," Councilman Sam Coleman of Antioch said before the vote.

......

Councilman Robert Duvall, who represents another part of Antioch, said his constituents are overwhelmingly opposed to buying land before knowing how the city would pay for the facility.

It seems one councilman is listening to his constituents and another is not.

Let's discuss your first scenario. did you give any thought to what city you were visiting? If you were in NY, Chicago, Atlanta, San Francisco, etc. your room would cost at least 50% more than it does in Nashville so the $10 in taxes is a moot point.

Second, the folks on the council were elected and unless you have some sort of inside information how do you know that the rest of the council is not listeneing to their constituents? Does everyone vote the way Antioch goes? Eric Crafton led the charge on English Only and his constituents are pissed. You believe what the paper prints more than you believe your council person? sad state of affairs....

[SoundScan]

To your first point, imagine this scenario. I take a trip on a budget of $1000 exactly. And I plan on spending it all. If my hotel taxes eat up $10-20 more of my budget during the course of my trip, that is money that won't be spent at a restaurant or honky tonk or wherever.

And yet without a newer, larger convention space the theoretical $1000 budget to be spent at Nashville hotels and businesses won't exist in the first place. It is no secret that Nashville is being dropped as the host of large conventions because of a lack of space. The potential irony of this situation is that without building a new center, Nashville could be left with a white elephant regardless, as the old center continues to cost the city money in maintenance but loses revenue as former convention business moves on to greener pastures. A new, larger facility allows the city to bring back the conventions it has already lost as well as go after the larger events it simply can't accommodate with the current space. That means returning the revenue streams we previously had (which paid for the current center) as well as additional revenue streams, both of which will pay for the new center.

[nashvylle]

And yet without a newer, larger convention space the theoretical $1000 budget to be spent at Nashville hotels and businesses won't exist in the first place. It is no secret that Nashville is being dropped as the host of large conventions because of a lack of space. The potential irony of this situation is that without building a new center, Nashville could be left with a white elephant regardless, as the old center continues to cost the city money in maintenance but loses revenue as former convention business moves on to greener pastures. A new, larger facility allows the city to bring back the conventions it has already lost as well as go after the larger events it simply can't accommodate with the current space. That means returning the revenue streams we previously had (which paid for the current center) as well as additional revenue streams, both of which will pay for the new center.

Thank you. Fantastic point.

[dmillsphoto]

Here we go...

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090603...nvention+center

"The Metro Council voted 29-6 Tuesday on the third and final vote to borrow $75 million to buy 15.87 acres south of Broadway."

[Plasticman]

Here we go...

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090603...nvention+center

"The Metro Council voted 29-6 Tuesday on the third and final vote to borrow $75 million to buy 15.87 acres south of Broadway."

I noticed the mention of $300,000,000 for the hotel portion. While it is only a mention I would think that would be QUITE a hotel considering it costs as much as Signature Tower. My bet is if built that portion would have to be at least 50 stories and probably 500-600+ feet tall. (a legitimate 600 feet unlike the two spikes on the Batman Building).