Winston-Salem

[Noneck_08]

Whats up with Winston. It seems to thinck its bigger than it really is. I live in Lexington, just south of Winston. I usually go there to Hanes Mall and such, every weekend. The skyline is impressive and Baptist Hospital is one of the best in the Country. Wake Forest and WSS bump up the education levels. And last but not least the Wachovia Building in downtown is the tallest in the state outside of Charlotte. Why is a city of 190,000 outbeating cities like Raleigh and Greensboro?

Any feed back?

[orulz]

Whats up with Winston. It seems to thinck its bigger than it really is. I live in Lexington, just south of Winston. I usually go there to Hanes Mall and such, every weekend. The skyline is impressive and Baptist Hospital is one of the best in the Country. Wake Forest and WSS bump up the education levels. And last but not least the Wachovia Building in downtown is the tallest in the state outside of Charlotte. Why is a city of 190,000 outbeating cities like Raleigh and Greensboro?

Any feed back?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"My city is better than yours" posts are pointless. The Charlotte board is practically full of them with that worthless Charlotte-Atlanta pissing contest that's always going on, and I don't want to see that happen here. Nevertheless I'll bite:

I've thought about what you said and I've decided that I'll disagree with you on every point except for the downtown.

Raleigh has education too. NC State doesn't get ranked as well as Wake in U.S. News and World Report's annual thingy, but it is the best engineering school in the state. Not to mention that Duke and Carolina are both just down the road. I don't know about the hospital situation, but the fame of the city's hospital is a pretty flimsy criterion upon which to judge whether a city is "outbeating" others. Each city has its own specialties, and that just happens to be one of Winston Salem's.

With regards to the downtown, you have a point. Winston-Salem has been a larger city for longer. It was the second largest city in the state for a long time (until about 1970 or so) and as we all know older cities tend to have a more urban environment. For whatever reasion, it took about 10 years longer for the explosive (mostly suburban) growth that characterizes present day NC to catch on in Winston-Salem, and that is why the population is lower to this day. WS was also the home of Wachovia until just a few years ago and that certainly didn't hurt.

Winston-Salem has a lot going on for it, but so do Greensboro and Raleigh. How about if we just let each city be itself and leave it at that, hm?

[Raleighmark]

One thing Raleigh has going against it as far as downtown perception is such a large work base located outside the city center. I would love to see the 35,000+ workers located in RTP work downtown instead. I think it would more than double the number of workers there.

Also, besides NCSU, UNC an Duke, don

[eastsider]

"My city is better than yours" posts are pointless. The Charlotte board is practically full of them with that worthless Charlotte-Atlanta pissing contest that's always going on, and I don't want to see that happen here.

I couldn't agree more. The Charlotte vs Atlanta is very lame and end up just repeating the same arguements over and over.

As far as WS goes, I really like visiting this city. Its got a good fountdation to do some big things. But, it does take alot of public/private cooperation. I know Charlotte would not be where it is today without that involvment of b of a, wachovia/first union, & duke energy. They have put alot of money into redevelopment of downtown area and bringing events and sports teams to the area to create additional exposure. I'm not familair with the movers and shakers in winston, but hopefully they will be involved in shaping the future of your city (if not already).

I think that in 15-20 years Winston-Salem, Raleigh, & Greensboro will all be transformed through explosive growth and it is impossible to say which one will have the largest population.

[capitalapts]

Is there actually a debate as far as which is the better city, Charlotte or Atlanta? We're talking about Charlotte, NC, right?

[JunktionFET]

Most of the time someone (usually a non-Charlottean) makes a benign comment like "I like Charlotte's skyline better than Atlanta's", and some dolt Atlanta fan (usually not even from Atlanta) thinks that the person is saying Charlotte has a bigger or taller skyline, or some crap like that. Then it escalates into crap.

[james_rivers]

As far as Winston's downtown, it's still recovering from the departure of RJ Reynolds (who moved out to Tobaccoville, except for some office space) and racism. Planners are starting to figure out how to use the abandoned space that Reynold's flight left (i.e. the crippled factory downtown).

As to the race issue, I don't think you can ever have a true downtown if you literally put chain link fences between wealthier whites and poorer minorities. If you go to, I believe, fourth street in Winston, there is a fence that separates the rich and the poor. It's pretty sad. If the basis of a town is community, then how do you build a town on segregation?

[JunktionFET]

I have not heard anything about segregation in Winston-Salem. Is this a theory of yours or does it have some substance?

[monsoon]

Most of the time someone (usually a non-Charlottean) makes a benign comment like "I like Charlotte's skyline better than Atlanta's", and some dolt Atlanta fan (usually not even from Atlanta) thinks that the person is saying Charlotte has a bigger or taller skyline, or some crap like that. Then it escalates into crap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You guys most be talking about another forum.

[twincity]

i dont know about the fence separating blacks from whites, but US 52 is known to do that. W-S is still a little segregated, its not as bad as it used to be but its still pretty obvious driving around the city. You will notice that new development is happening eveywhere except East Winston. Council woman Vivian Burke of the northeast ward has pointed that out several times during city meetings. HAWS, WSSU and Liberty CDC are the only ones trying to add life to that side of town. I think the Goler and Happy hill projects will help correct the segregation problem. Both use to be low income neighborhoods and now they are being redeveloped for mixed income families.

[JunktionFET]

I'm sure that in time that will change, but it is sort of a shame to see that style of segregation. I really wasn't aware that it existed at all, at least not like you describe.

[monsoon]

Whats up with Winston. It seems to thinck its bigger than it really is. I live in Lexington, just south of Winston. I usually go there to Hanes Mall and such, every weekend. The skyline is impressive and Baptist Hospital is one of the best in the Country. Wake Forest and WSS bump up the education levels. And last but not least the Wachovia Building in downtown is the tallest in the state outside of Charlotte. Why is a city of 190,000 outbeating cities like Raleigh and Greensboro?

Any feed back?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you should quantify what you mean by "beating". However I'll add my two cents.

North Carolina's traditional areas of prosperity have been in 3 areas. Tobacco, Furniture & Textiles. Tobacco was very important to the state as it brought countless benefits to much of the state that most of the rest of the South did not enjoy. Winston benefited greatly from this considering the that RJR was HQ'd there for decades.

I think the landmark 1964 statement from the Surgeon General that cigarette smoking will kill you, was probably the beginning of the end of Winston's prosperity. As mentioned above, it was surpased by Charlotte by the 1970s as the state's largest city. Charlotte, which never really benefited from the tobacco industry was in a much better position to move to the industries of the New South. It has always had to make its own way.

Likewise, Durham was also hurt by the decline of tobacco, but there were two important differences in the Triangle. The first was that the triangle was home to the state government. That will guarantee a certain level of prosperity no matter what, and even today the state government is the largest employer in Raleigh. But more important than that, the state decided to create a special tax zone over a huge area of land between Durham and Raleigh called RTP. Corporations locating there received huge tax benefits and as a result, almost every major high tech corporation in the USA as a presence in RTP. IBM for example has its largest production/research facility in the world located in RTP. Over the last 25 years RTP resulted in the huge growth in the Triangle but was also responsible for the relative lack of skyline development of its cities.

At the moment it would seem that Winston's best days are behind it. Most of its home grown industries, Piedmont, Wachovia, RJR (#1), Hanes, etc., that were responsible for its skyline are now gone. And its last darling, Krispy Kreme, is now in bad decline and is being investigated for lying about how well the company is doing. And even worse, it competes against Greensboro instead of joining it in competitions for new business. I predict that we will not see much change in Winston's skyline for quite some time.

[JunktionFET]

I certainly don't forsee Winston getting any new tall towers anytime soon, but I am glad it is on the rebound. I suppose technically it was never on the decline--hasn't it always seen a slow growth rate at the very least?

With PTRP and the new restoration projects going on downtown, Winston is certainly an attractive option that seems to be improving.

I do totally agree that Winston and Greensboro need to work together. Census definitions aside, their proximity to one another necessitates that they cooperate. A couple times Matthew (and others who I cannot recall) indicated some pretty strong competition between the two cities. I don't know if that is an exagerration on Matthew's part or if it really is that way--but regardless, that kind of attitude will inevitably hurt the Triad region as a whole and neither city will ever be able to touch the success of Raleigh and Charlotte.

There was a proprosal recently for an RTP-style development in the "heart" of the Triad between Winston, Greensboro, and High Point. Of course, it isn't literally modelled after RTP--instead it is concept which draws upon RTP's strengths but tries to address its weaknesses. It would incorporate a central park and would be an attempt to help funnel the Triad's growth more inward instead of outward. I believe this is important. Perhaps a concept like this, if successful, will help unify the region and make it stronger. It is almost a guarantee that they will not achieve greatness alone. I doubt they are bitter rivals, but I know it probably isn't a smooth ride either.

Raleigh and Durham have extremely smooth relations by comparison--and I really hate to admit this, but I believe it has a lot do with RTP, plus the fact that all three of the original Triangle cities (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill) house equally impressive reknowned universities.

[Raleighmark]

Raleigh and Durham have extremely smooth relations by comparison--and I really hate to admit this, but I believe it has a lot do with RTP, plus the fact that all three of the original Triangle cities (Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill) house equally impressive reknowned universities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The "Triangle" originally refers to the universities, not the cities.

[twincity]

monsoon-At the moment it would seem that Winston's best days are behind it. Most of its home grown industries, Piedmont, Wachovia, RJR (#1), Hanes, etc., that were responsible for its skyline are now gone. And its last darling, Krispy Kreme, is now in bad decline and is being investigated for lying about how well the company is doing. And even worse, it competes against Greensboro instead of joining it in competitions for new business. I predict that we will not see much change in Winston's skyline for quite some time.

Your facts are all twisted. Krisy Kreme is by far not the "last darling" for te city.

1. RJR is not gone. Its still headquartered downtown and a fortune 500 company. The recent merger is bringing 1000 new workers into the city and making it the Nations 2nd Largest tobacco company.

2. Wachovia is not gone. its wealth management division is headquartered downtown. The company is commited to keeping at least 3000 workers in the city.

3. cant believe you didnt mention BB&T. the nation's 9th largest bank is headquartered in W-S...another fortune 500 company

4 Saralee Branded Apparel ( the maker of Hanes) recently broke off into a seperate company...giving the city a new HQ and a 3rd fortune 500 company.

5. USAir bought piedmont, but that has come full circle since the airline is consolidating its operations in the city, bringing over 300 new jobs.

6. I know a lot of people are tired of hearing this but....Dell (the new darling)is moving to the city... along with its 8000 pitiful spin-off jobs. This new facility will be the largest and most advanced Dell Plant in the world (over 500,000 sf).

7. Krispy Kreme is struggling but i have a feeling it will bounce back. After months of decline, just the other day the stock rose by 22%.

8. Blue Rhino, Truliant and Southern Community Bank are other strong companies located in little Winston-Salem.

True the city lost some of its glory when Wachovia left and Reynolds was on the decline. Today, you have to realize that the city is in transition. Factories are on their way out, and so is textiles and fruniture. BB&T stepped it up when Wachovia left and now the bank is more powerful than Wachovia when it was hq'ed in the city. Reynolds suffered for many years with job cuts and competition. Now its healthier than ever after the recent merger with Brown and Williams...now a fortune 200 company. WS is home to the triad 2 largest hospitals including the nationally ranked Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center. Winston-Salem is very healthy and i think in a few years it will be well respected like it once was 50 years ago.

The business climate is getting healthier in the city. With the recent activity in mind. I think Winston-Salem has just as good as chance as raleigh of seeing a new downtown office high rise pretty soon. the possibity is actually very great. go to triad.bizjournals.com and read the article about how parking problems could steer Winston-Salem's latest devlopment...a project at 4th and liberty called the next "super block" consisting of multple new buildings. The first "super block" contains the 34 storey wachovia center and the 20 something storey BB&T finacial center....(just to give you a hint of what could happen)

[jb4563]

Is there actually a debate as far as which is the better city, Charlotte or Atlanta?  We're talking about Charlotte, NC, right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think anyone from Raleigh needs to be saying anything about Charlotte.

[jb4563]

[3. cant believe you didnt mention BB&T.  the nation's 9th largest bank is headquartered in W-S...another fortune 500 company

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BB&T is on the "chopping" block. It is begging to be bought by Wells Fargo, Citibank, Bank One, or any other bank that doesn't have a Southeastern presence. BB&T is the perfect size for purchase.

I predicted the (Legacy) Wachovia buyout 3 years before it happened.

[jb4563]

Winston-Salem is a joke, and that is sad to say. (I used to live there).

Don't get me wrong, Winston-Salem is a beautiful city (in some places), and it is a great place if you are old, or maybe raising a family.

The problem with W-S is that its leaders of the 70s and 80s never saw the downfall of tobacco coming, and never thought Wachovia would leave (whoever didn't see that coming is naive).

The growth of the research park downtown is a wonderful thing; hopefully it will be a huge success..but is it too late?

Downtown Winston is a scary place....drive down Liberty St past the abandoned store fronts. Why doesn't the city have the forethought to tear all this down?

[capitalapts]

I don't think anyone from Raleigh needs to be saying anything about Charlotte.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, you're right. We here in Raleigh are awestruck by Charlotte's magnificence, the city that never sleeps.

[monsoon]

Yes, you're right.  We here in Raleigh are awestruck by Charlotte's magnificence, the city that never sleeps.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL Lets try to keep opinion separate from facts.

twincity, when I said best days, I meant in regards to building towers since I figured this was what the original thread was meant to be about. Winston, relative to other cities of the same size, does have a great deal going for it. I think its biggest problem however is Greensboro. Winston needs to figure out how to work with the Triad's largest city, and not against it.

[twincity]

Winston definitely has a long way to go as a city. i do admit its not a charlotte or atlanta, but its also not a joke. I guess it depends on what u r into. if you are into art, culture, family life and college sports then this is the place for you. if you want a fast pace no nonsense type city with a bustlng nightlife, then charlotte maybe good for you. 5 years ago, I would have agreed with you about it being a joke, but it has grown up in a short period of time. All of the cities main festivals are relatively new... RiverRun, NBTF, Films on 4th and Summer on Trade. Those activites has really added life to dowtown. if Winston was a joke it wouldnt have been labeled as one of "America's most Livable" along with Charlotte. This award factors in everything from quality of life to attractions to business climate.

[eastsider]

Winston-Salem is a joke, and that is sad to say. (I used to live there).

Don't get me wrong, Winston-Salem is a beautiful city (in some places), and it is a great place if you are old, or maybe raising a family.

The problem with W-S is that its leaders of the 70s and 80s never saw the downfall of tobacco coming, and never thought Wachovia would leave (whoever didn't see that coming is naive).

The growth of the research park downtown is a wonderful thing; hopefully it will be a huge success..but is it too late?

Downtown Winston is a scary place....drive down Liberty St past the abandoned store fronts.  Why doesn't the city have the forethought to tear all this down?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Winston-Salem is far from a joke. On weekends that I have been up there, there was quite a bit of activity on the streets of downtown.

Is it the cities leaders job to predict what companies will be thriving 20-30 years down the line? Every city does what it can to attract more companies, and as twincity stated the ones that are there haven't dissapeared. Just about every city in the southeast has been going through an eveolution the past couple of decades. I just don't see this gloomy outlook.

[orulz]

Downtown Winston is a scary place....drive down Liberty St past the abandoned store fronts.

[jb4563]

Yes, you're right.  We here in Raleigh are awestruck by Charlotte's magnificence, the city that never sleeps.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the Charlotte Observer put it right a few weeks ago....no one would go to Raleigh if it wasn't the state capital.

[jb4563]

I think Winston-Salem is far from a joke. On weekends that I have been up there, there was quite a bit of activity on the streets of downtown.

Is it the cities leaders job to predict what companies will be thriving 20-30 years down the line? Every city does what it can to attract more companies, and as twincity stated the ones that are there haven't dissapeared. Just about every city in the southeast has been going through an eveolution the past couple of decades. I just don't see this gloomy outlook.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, you have probably been up there when there are organized events that will bring people into the downtown area. Go there when there is nothing going on.

The city is a joke. When I tell people that I from there, they say.."Oh, that is where Hanes Mall is." When your city is known for having a mall (and that is it)..that is a joke.