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stinkweed

Northeast or Midwest

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Is Pittsburgh really in the northeast? It seems to have more of a rivalry with Cleveland (although I have no idea why) and the rest of Ohio then with its cross state rival Philly. It also seems to act much more blue collar then the rest of the northeast. Atleast that's my impression. Why does the rivalry with Cleveland exist anyway? It's seem Pittsburgh is aiming low to me,

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Is Pittsburgh really in the northeast?  It seems to have more of a rivalry with Cleveland (although I have no idea why) and the rest of Ohio then with its cross state rival Philly.  It also seems to act much more blue collar then the rest of the northeast.  Atleast that's my impression.  Why does the rivalry with Cleveland exist anyway?  It's seem Pittsburgh is aiming low to me,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pittsburgh is Midwest. There's nothing Northeast about it other than the fact that it is in PA which is often mischaracterized as a NE state (mroe like a NE, appalachian, and Midwestern state). Pittsburghers say "pop", not "soda". In terms of department store divisions, Pittsburgh has "Macy's Central" whereas Philadelphia has "Macy's East". And so on...

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Pittsburgh is Midwest.  There's nothing Northeast about it other than the fact that it is in PA which is often mischaracterized as a NE state (mroe like a NE, appalachian, and Midwestern state).  Pittsburghers say "pop", not "soda".  In terms of department store divisions, Pittsburgh has "Macy's Central" whereas Philadelphia has "Macy's East".  And so on...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It sure doesn't help that the pirates and phil's don't play as much anymore. I think the division was split up last year right? I'm only a casual fan.

your right though, it seems as if we're only PA a map. There isn't much PA pride really.

And locally it seems as if there really isn't much of a media outlet for it either. That's something I actually like about NJ. They have many outlets that focus on the state.

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^^lol Jersey needs all the pride focus it can get lol

As far as Pennsylvania Pittsburgh does have lots of "pride" things, The TV News stations were trying to "out Pittsburgh" each other with one stating it was the "hometown team" and the other boasting how all its anchors were born and raised or something like that, the Dave Croley (sp) bits on "KD Kountry" looking at things uniquely Pittsburgh and KDKA used to do the nightly "Pitt Parade" (don't think they do anymore though). The PBS station in Pittsburgh (WQED) is the most locally prideful station I've ever seen--in or out of Pennsylvania--best part is the Rick Sebak series on Pittsburgh Pride things.

I think just given Pennsylvania's expansive area and way different demos across the state there is more a "local" pride factor in each area then a statewide pride. More like a confederation of some very proud metros then a whole state-wide feeling.

Then again thats why we're a commonwealth ;) lol

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You'll never find a native Pittsburgher that refers to him/herself as a Midwesterner. Pittsburgh may not be Northeast... but it certainly isn't Midwest. The most accurate regional description would be Appalachian. Pittsburgh has a much denser built environment than Midwestern cities... many more rowhouses. Pittsburgh has always had its eye to the west since its beginning... being the original gateway to the west with its river system... but it's not Midwest. It's the westernmost outpost of Northeasternism. It has a rivalry with Cleveland (which is right on the edge of Midwest) due to similar populations and traditional industries. They're only a couple hours apart as well. It's quite hard for me to be amidst the turbulant terrain of hilly Pittsburgh and say... "this is Midwest".

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Evergrey,

From the signs your looking at I'd agree that though we are not NE 95 cooridor land, we aren't mid-west Kansas or Indiana.

When looking at Pittsburgh though I have always viewed the demographics as the major reason we aren't 95 metroland in the NE. Pittsburgh to me is much much more Cleveland or Milwaukee or even Kansas City then it is Philadelphia, Boston or Hartford. True "mid-west" really isn't the best term for Pittsburgh but as far as the blue-collar/self reliant, post-industrial demos it fits best.

I remember during the first gulf war Andy Rooney on 60 did a piece on what really the "middle east" is . . . and proceeds to take out a map of the Ohio Valley and talk about Indianapolis and Detroit, Cincinnati, Buffalo and Pittsburgh. :D We might have to sue OPEC for trademark infringement :P

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Pittsburgh is a Northeastern city. period.

Yes it is the western end of the Northeast, but there must be a western end to it just as DC is the Southern border. Yes the distance in the middle of the state makes Pittsburgh a little more Midwestern in flavor, but far from the Midwest.

If you ask Pittsburghers who they identify with, the will say Northeast, unless they are a transplanted Ohian etc. There's a difference. Just because the city doesn't sit on I95 and say cawfee doesn't make it Midwestern.

As far as stating that it is Midwestern because of the industrial past is also misguided. Ever heard the term, the industrial northeast? Blue collar jobs were common in Baltimore, Boston and NJ and even NYC, through Western NY.

However, there are really 2 Midwests, the industrial great lakes and the farm land it's cities.

There's a difference between NE Ohio and SW Ohio given the cultural differences within the Midwest.

The industrial/grat lakes Midwest is probably closest to the NE in character (though it varies). Cleveland Detroit and Chicago were ethnically diverse compared to cities like Cincy and cities born in the farmlands.

in any case, to those that say that Pittsburgh is the Midwest. I say go to the Midwest and you'll see why Pittsburgh ain't Indy or Cincy.

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Pittsburgh is a Northeastern city.  period.

Yes it is the western end of the Northeast, but there must be a western end to it just as DC is the Southern border.  Yes the distance in the middle of the state makes Pittsburgh a little more Midwestern in flavor, but far from the Midwest.

If you ask Pittsburghers who they identify with, the will say Northeast, unless they are a transplanted Ohian etc.  There's a difference.  Just because the city doesn't sit on I95 and say cawfee doesn't make it Midwestern.

As far as stating that it is Midwestern because of the industrial past is also misguided.  Ever heard the term, the industrial northeast?  Blue collar jobs were common in Baltimore, Boston and NJ and even NYC, through Western NY.

However, there are really 2 Midwests, the industrial great lakes and the farm land it's cities.

There's a difference between NE Ohio and SW Ohio given the cultural differences within the Midwest.

The industrial/grat lakes Midwest is probably closest to the NE in character (though it varies).  Cleveland Detroit and Chicago were ethnically diverse compared to cities like Cincy and cities born in the farmlands.

in any case, to those that say that Pittsburgh is the Midwest.  I say go to the Midwest and you'll see why Pittsburgh ain't Indy or Cincy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Couple points the difference you see in Ohio is between "southern" and "mid-west" being that most of southern Ohio is only miles away from Kentucky bluegrass and West Virginia--itself historically Virginian.

Cincinnati is VERY ethnically diverse more along the lines of a Pittsburgh or Cleveland (ANOTHER reason I see Pittsburgh in the Mid-west) Cincy has lots of Italian neighborhoods and the German, Irish and some Polish in that city could only be bested by the Milwaukees, Bostons and Chicagos.

Pittsburgh to me with its populace and economic climate closer resembles Cleveland, Detroit, Buffalo and Cincinnati then it does Philadelphia, Baltimore, and NYC.

I will point out that I just don't want the "mid-west" label given to Pittsburgh WITHOUT distinguishing between Kansas or Iowa as "mid-west". In my mind the majority of Americans see Kansas City or Omaha or Chicago as the prime example of what is "mid-west" but in that same vein Cleveland just 2 hours to the north and along a corridor that is becoming as homogenized as the NYC/Philly cooridor (when do you really "exit" metro Pittsburgh and "enter" metro Cleveland--and if you can't really say then haven't we become just a megalopolis similar to BostonNewYorkPhiladelphiaBaltimoreWashington has?).

Final and most important point of all it is called EAST COAST for a reason. You reside in a metroplex that is centered ON THE COAST TO THE EAST. Pittsburgh fits this description about as well as Los Angeles and slightly better then Anchorage. If you live in metro Philly or Boston or even metro Harrisburg (the suqusehana(sp i know i know) flows into the Cheasepeake(2 for 2 tnite lol) flows into the Atlantic) you have a tangible connection the COAST that is EASTERN. Pittsburgh just doesn't. One could make an argument that taken 4 or 5 steps it the Ohio flows to the Mississippi flows to the Gulf flows to the Florida Straits and thus Atlantic--think about you passing towns in ILLINOIS and MISSOURI while your on this route as the boat leaving Harrisburg is by this time passing Bermuda.

So what its just water and hills? To really think about it mankind has always defined its location by the body of water they are next to or the tributary they are on and where that water flows--in a like way mountain ranges (the enemy of all that is water) have traditionally divided whole civilzations--the French and Spanish two VERY different peoples (though if you go back 1500 yrs yes similar roman births) are divided by a mere mountain range, the Northern Europeans and the Meditteran cultures (even a greater difference in histories) by mere mountains and a divided water table! Heck the only difference between Asia and Europe you might say is which side of the Ural mountains you were born on!

All the water around metro Pittsburgh flows WEST, most of the roads lead WEST, you can float or ride to Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri and beyond from downtown Pittsburgh. (I-76 and I-70 both lead you west, whereas they combine into just one route eastward over the great eastern divide).

It would be similar to lumping Denver into "west coast" Denver is not the same as San Diego and San Fran its waters run EAST.

I would agree that to call Pittsburgh "Appalachian" just as we call Denver "Rocky Mountain" would be a better way--however aside from a National Park that is uniquely "southern" and the stigma of a hillbilly from West Virginia "Appalachia" has no meaning to the average America (though everything from New Hampshire to Albany to Buffalo to Birmingham could fall under that). Denver's "region" has its own time zone named after it. Biggest problem with Appalachia is that is traverses New England which is its own unique subset of Northeastern and it runs deep into Dixie. Its not its own unique demographic that "Rocky Mountain" seems to be.

For now with the feeling that an almost continous "metroplex" exists on the I-76 corridor between Cleveland/Akron/Youngstown/New Castle/Beaver/Pittsburgh and that all water and most roads tend to flow you to Indiana rather then New Jersey Pittsburgh to me must be Mid-West--on the very cutoff line for sure--but Mid-West.

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As a New Englander, I think of Pittsburgh as a Northeastern city more so than a Midwestern city. I wouldn't speak of it in the same breath as Cleveland or Detroit or Indianapolis.

I think of it more as the centre of the Rust Belt (which I know is a term many of you hate), that stretches from Upstate New York through Western PA and into Northern Ohio. It straddles regions for sure, maybe even getting a little southern influence via WVa. But I think it is decidedly more Northeastern than Midwestern.

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^^ I agree with you on the fact that there is no "final perfect" category

for my city. The reason though that I lean most heavily to Midwest--other then the geographic and demographic points that are by now well documented--is to drive from Pittsburgh to Cleveland to Detroit and into Central Michigan and to a lesser extent to drive from Pittsburgh to Columbus to Cincinnati to Indianapolis you really never do leave "civilization" it is almost as if it is just one big continous metroplex similar to but not as intense as the Washington-Baltimore-Philly-NYC-Boston extended metroplex. If you consider that the land between Indianapolis/Pittsburgh and Detroit/Pittsburgh and Wash/Phil/NYC/Boston has been called "Alabama North" then Pittsburgh is not "connected" to Philadelphia and the rest of the east coast as it is connected to Cleveland Cincy and Indy and Detroit.

The Perfect statement would be applachia but that again traverses everything from New England to Dixie. Pittsburgh is really much like Denver of the East--not praire mid-west but not the __ coast either.

Just my two cents.

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One other point . . . if your a sports fan in Pittsburgh you travel to:

Cleveland

Cincinnati

and Baltimore (the old Cleveland) every football season

you play mostly

Chicago

Cincinnati

St. Louis

Houston

Milwaukee every baseball season

Although Hockey fans see us play Philly, the 3 NY teams mostly

the NHL insists that we play our "geographic rival" Columbus many times a year as well.

The University of Pittsburgh belongs to a conference that will play games in Louisville, Chicago, South Bend Indiana, Syracuse, West Virginia, and Ohio vs. a few in Philadelphia and New Jersey (is one still in New York City?).

Taken as a whole Pittsburgh sports team spend about 75 to 80 percent of their time out in the Ohio Valley, St. Louis, and the Great Lakes when not playing at home (which by the way those stadiums are all in spitting distance of the Ohio River just like towns in Illinois).

I have nothing against those that want us classified as Northeastern and Pennsylvania as solidly a Northeastern state. But if you look at everything from business to sports to demos and history as much as we are connected across the stretch of northern alabama to the east coast we are twice as connected to the Ohio Valley and the Great Lakes--or maybe even more then twice.

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One other point . . . if your a sports fan in Pittsburgh you travel to:

Cleveland

Cincinnati

and Baltimore (the old Cleveland) every football season

you play mostly

Chicago

Cincinnati

St. Louis

Houston

Milwaukee every baseball season

Although Hockey fans see us play Philly, the 3 NY teams mostly

the NHL insists that we play our "geographic rival" Columbus many times a year as well.

The University of Pittsburgh belongs to a conference that will play games in Louisville, Chicago, South Bend Indiana, Syracuse, West Virginia, and Ohio vs. a few in Philadelphia and New Jersey (is one still in New York City?).

Taken as a whole Pittsburgh sports team spend about 75 to 80 percent of their time out in the Ohio Valley, St. Louis, and the Great Lakes when not playing at home (which by the way those stadiums are all in spitting distance of the Ohio River just like towns in Illinois).

I have nothing against those that want us classified as Northeastern and Pennsylvania as solidly a Northeastern state.  But if you look at everything from business to sports to demos and history as much as we are connected across the stretch of northern alabama to the east coast we are twice as connected to the Ohio Valley and the Great Lakes--or maybe even more then twice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, as the official norhtheastern rep and as you know, a man from the greatest sports city on the planet :D , I'll welcome you to the northeast anytime you guys want to come over (or is it through Alabama).

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^^ in the NHL the Pens/Flyers is still a divisional rivalry . . . you better be careful what you wish for SW :P

I will agree Philadelphia might be the greatest sports CITY (tied with Boston and Chicago in my mind) but Pittsburgh would be #1 if you included BURGHS! :D

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Last summer I spent a week in the Midwest and a day driving around Pittsburgh. From that experience, like others have said, Pittsburgh is a lot denser than the typical Midwestern city. On the other hand, places like St. Louis, Chicago, and Cincinnati seem to be very unique compared to the average Midwestern city, like Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland or Indianapolis. For the sake of this thread, I'd say it still has more in common with the Northeast. However, really I think its a "River City" with an economy and history very similar to other river cities like Cincinnati, Memphis, New Orleans and Jacksonville.

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Cities can have similarities with other regions, but still exist in more ways to their own region. Also regions have to touch each other somewhere and in that somewhere some things blur... and when you have 2 cities like Pgh and Cleveland relatively close to each other, but exist in different states that have cultural and other ties to their states and respective regions... Yes Pittsburgh shares an industrial past with Cleveland and Detroit, but also with Buffalo and Baltimore, and to a lesser extent Philly, Boston and even NYC also have had their fair share of blue collar jobs.

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Well, as the official norhtheastern rep and as you know, a man from the greatest sports city on the planet :D , I'll welcome you to the northeast anytime you guys want to come over (or is it through Alabama).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why does Pittsburgh need to be labeled one way or the other? It's clear that the 'burgh has qualities of both a Northeastern town and a Mid-western feel. I'll be the first to admit, however, that Pittsburgh should not be classified as Mid-West. That said, Pittsburgh is the "Gateway to the West" so it's very typical that we would have more Mid-western qualities than, say Boston who sits on the ocean.

Pittsburgh is different from Boston and it's different from Indy. Pittsburgh also fits into the Mid-Atlantic section - along with Wash, DC. How can anyone say DC is in the North East?? It's another city that can be considered southern or even Mid-Atlantic, such as Pittsburgh.

Yinz all remember the "like" "dislike" and "indifferent" circles from elementary and middle school? Ya know, where you drew two circles away from each other but had another circle intersecting the two others? Well, in the far right circle is the North East.....in the far left circle is the Mid-West. And in the middle circle is Pittsburgh.

I don't like calling Pgh the Mid-west because all I think of is Cleveland. Ewww.

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^^bc welcome to the board, hope u enjoy it here

Thats a unique perspective that being related to "Mid-west" makes you think of Cleveland lol.

Then again being labeled Northeast or Mid-Atlantic brings me to all that Philadelphia comparison :P . . . only joking. :P

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As I recall Pittsburg had an urbane mostly northeastern feel but there are definite hints of the south and mid-west. That makes sense right? :silly:

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The University of Pittsburgh belongs to a conference that will play games in Louisville, Chicago, South Bend Indiana, Syracuse, West Virginia, and Ohio vs. a few in Philadelphia and New Jersey (is one still in New York City?).

Um, Pitt plays in a conference that's called the BIG EAST, which plays games against a Philadelphia school (Nova), a school in DC (G'town), 2 in NJ (Setan Hall & Rutgers), 1 in NYC (St. Johns), 1 in Connecticut (UConn), and 1 in Rhode Island (Providence).

Pittsburgh is sometimes labeled the "gateway to the midwest", and people there do refer to soda as "pop".

Yet, to complicate matters further, the geographic terrain is unlike anything in the midwest.

If anything, the city is somewhat of a unique blend of both distinctive American cultures. Sort of a cultural cross breed, if you will. Kind of like Baltimore...a city with heavy "northeastern" traits and characteristics, yet technically residing south of the Mason Dixon line and containing a smidgeon of southern variants.

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^^ only point was that taken all together the "big east" is the most "eastern" sports division in the city--one that plays half of its games in Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, Kentucky and West Virginia. NFL, MLB are totally mid-west (save the Raves who really are only in the conference because its the old Browns rivalry).

I do agree that the best description is that of a city on the border-- a gateway to lots of different regions. :)

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As someone who has lived in the northeast, the midwest and Pittsburgh I feel uniquely qualified to answer this question.

If you have to pick one it is definitely northeast. The Pa boundry may seem like an arbitrary place to divide east from midwest, but guess what? that is what all boundaries are.

The only people I have ever heard refer to Pgh as midwest are midwesterners who are trying to annex Pittsburgh to their ranks (they have good taste God Bless them but they are wrong). Or people living in Pittsburgh that are originally from Ohio/Indiana/Michigan. Or people from Philly who somehow think is makes them cool to attach themselves to NY and attach Pittsburgh to the midwest (which they see as so very uncool).

In reality Pittsburgh is a hybrid of east and midwest - maintaining the better characteristics of both in my opinion. I agree that it is very much like DC in that they are both perfect combinations of different regions.

However, if you have to pick one it is northeast.

As a side note I really don't agree with these comparisions between Pittsburgh and Cleveland. I like Cleveland but it really cannot compare with Pittsburgh (just my opinion...)

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