Northeast or Midwest

[PghUSA]

^^ interested in why you feel a comparison between Pittsburgh and Cleveland doesn't work. What other city more closely resembles Pittsburgh in demographics, history, culture, size, sports, etc.?

Also your correct Pittsburgh is a hybrid but as far as ALL boundaries being arbitrary . . . they aren't.

Most boundaries that were drawn by people OF that area reflect a river or a mountain range divide line . . . REAL boundaries that kept one group from the other. That is all that divides Spain and France and France and Britian . . . high mountains and water. There is both water and high mountains between Pittsburgh and Philly, not much at all between Pittsburgh and Cleveland. I have heard of people from Cleveland driving to Pittsburgh International Airport and people from Pittsburgh driving to Hopkins International but never have I heard of someone driving over the highest mountains this side of the Rockies and through four tunnels to get to Philly or Pittsburgh's airport respectively. The boundary line between Ohio and Pennsylvania was drawn up by people that never ventured out of the Atlantic seaboard for more then a few months. Pittsburgh was known as the "Ohio Country" heck Greensburg and Ligoner were too. The state of Ohio took its name because in the east people referred to those folks as living in the "Ohio Country" along with the folks that lived in Westmoreland and Somerset counties.

Mountains, Rivers and Great Lakes to BOUND us to one area, a line drawn on flat land between two industrial cities doesn't.

Just my two cents.

[PghUSA]

^^by the way Kasper welcome to the forum, as you have probably read I love a good debate, but I love to learn interesting things I haven't thought about yet in them even more. So Welcome and hope to hear lots of your thoughts on this and other Pennsylvania topics in the future

[kurtosis]

I just moved to Pittsburgh but I've also lived in Chicago and New England. I think the concept of "mid-West" that some people have here is way too elastic. For instance it is a real stretch to call Michigan or Ohio the mid-west. There is a pretty clear notion in Chicago that the mid-West refers to the plains states with lots of farming, i.e. Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, Missouri, and you could throw in Minnesota and Wisconsin. Few people in Chicago would call Detroit, let alone Pittsburgh or Cleveland, a mid-west city. I think that is more of an east coast perspective, that once you go far enough west so that you're not on the east coast then you must be in the midwest.

Here is my question for PA natives since I'm new here? Do Pgh and Philly have anything (historically or currently) to do with each other? In other states with 2 or more big cities (i.e. S.F & LA, Houston & Dallas, KC&St Louis) there seems to be some kind of relation or rivalry between them. So far here I get the sense that Pgh & Philly being in the same state is just an arbitrary consequence of how the borders were drawn. Do you think most people in either city feel that way, or is there more to it that I haven't noticed?

[urbanophile]

Here is my question for PA natives since I'm new here? Do Pgh and Philly have anything (historically or currently) to do with each other? In other states with 2 or more big cities (i.e. S.F & LA, Houston & Dallas, KC&St Louis) there seems to be some kind of relation or rivalry between them. So far here I get the sense that Pgh & Philly being in the same state is just an arbitrary consequence of how the borders were drawn. Do you think most people in either city feel that way, or is there more to it that I haven't noticed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Having lived in both - born in Pittsburgh now in Philly - I have to say that the two cities have little in common. The mountains really divide the state. Philly assocaites ALOT more with DC and NYC than Pittsburgh. Most people here it seems ahve never been to Pittsburgh. I once bought the book "Pittsburgh: Then and Now" at a Barnes and Noble here and the cashier saw the picture of the Pittsburgh skyline on the back cover (the one without the title) and remarked "Which city is that????". Not only that, but in philly there's a concept of the state being Philadelphia and "everything else" with "everythign else" being referred to variously as either "Upstate" or "central and western PA". The term "upstate" actually refers to everything but Pgh but that's only because most people here forget that Pgh is part of this state. Instead, when you ask peoepl here what other cities there are in PA they often will think of Allentown, Harrisburg, and Scranton and it'll be a stretch for them to think of Pittsburgh and Erie. One time I even had one person say "Pittsburgh? Oh yeah, I forgot that was part of PA too. I usually just associate them with Ohio."

As for Pittsburgh, it seems Pittsburgh associates itself more with Ohio and WV than with eastern PA. There's alot of talk in Pgh about being in PA but "PA" often refers to western PA. I remember the jokes about "you know you're from PA if..." and the answeres were usually things like "the first day of deer season is a holiday" and "a Friday night out is dancing the Polish polka". These jokes would be completely lost on anyone from Philadelphia as they relate more to western PA.

The one major difference between teh two is that Pittsburgh sees itself as part of a state whereas Philadelphia sees itself as an entity upon itself much like how NYC sees itself as an entity upon itself.

[Kasper]

As for Pittsburgh, it seems Pittsburgh associates itself more with Ohio and WV than with eastern PA. 

I think most Pittsburghers would take BIG issue with you saying they identify with West Virginia - just based on the amount of hillbilly/incest jokes regarding WV that go on in Pittsburgh.

Pittsburghers do not associate themselves with Philly, certainly not WV and I haven't heard much love for Ohio either. I think Pittsburgh considers itself part as Western PA and that is about it.

I hate that deer hunting joke, the national announcers always tell it during Steelers games and it makes me insane. That joke makes Pittsburghers sound like hicks. I am 26 and I have yet to meet a Pittsburgher who hunts - it is people from WAY outlying counties - or Pennsyltucky as we call it.

[Flash]

Pittsburgh is Northeast, end of story.

[Kasper]

Pittsburgh is Northeast, end of story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed.

[kurtosis]

I think most Pittsburghers would take BIG issue with you saying they identify with West Virginia - just based on the amount of hillbilly/incest jokes regarding WV that go on in Pittsburgh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps what s/he was trying to say was that Pittsburghers tend to see WV and Ohio as their neighbors (hence the motivation to make hilllbilly/Cleveland jokes) whereas Philly is a far off city which is in another part of the country for all intents and purposes.

One thing I was thinking about other states with 2+ large cities is that the state as a whole often has a certain identity. Just saying "California" (or Texas or Florida) conjures up a certain image. So you get a sense of the 2 cities being part of the same region, which makes for more of a rivalry (kind of a "this state ain't big enough for the both of us" thing) So far I have a sense of the city of Pgh's identity but I have absolutely no feeling of being "in Pennsylvania". Maybe b/c there's no other significant cities or towns nearby. It sounds like in Philly people actually have some notion of the state of PA, even if it only includes the eastern part. Maybe because that's where the colony actually started, whereas the western part was just open land they picked up b/c nobody else had claimed it.

Anyway it's quite a change from New England where each state has a pretty strong identity! (well, maybe not connecticut)

[PghUSA]

Kasper wrote:

QUOTE(Flash @ Apr 15 2005, 05:11 AM)

Pittsburgh is Northeast, end of story.

Agreed.

. . . now when do we play the Browns this season?

Should I book AirTran out of PIT or drive to

Cleveland and take Southwest before May?

Honey I don't want to drive through 4 tunnels

to Atlantic City, lets just take the Delta Queen

down at Station Square to Cincinnati and back.

The Federal Reserve Bank when taking the pulse of

the economy to steer jobgrowth and investment

assigns us to a Mid-West Federal Reserve.

The Fed Reserve Fourth District Map:

When flying to Pittsburgh (or Altoona or State College!)

you are controlled by a Mid-west FAA Center:

I don't think Pittsburgh is as mid-west as Oklahoma City

or Chicago but I don't think it's Northeast period. If it

was that then the Fed, the FAA, the Delta Queen the

NFL, MLB are all very very very wrong. I'll throw

my lot in with them.

[urbanophile]

Perhaps what s/he was trying to say was that Pittsburghers tend to see WV and Ohio as their neighbors (hence the motivation to make hilllbilly/Cleveland jokes) whereas Philly is a far off city which is in another part of the country for all intents and purposes.

Exactly!

[Kasper]

Pittsburgh may be the far south-western corner of the North East, but it is still NorthEast. Just because it is close to the midwest does not make it midwest. Pittsburgh is within the border of PA, which is traditionally always considered part of the N.E., so if you have to label it something it is Northeast.

I don't care if we play the Browns alot, we play the Ravens alot too. The Penguins play in the Atlantic division, Pitt plays in the big EAST. This very message board puts pittsburgh in the North Atlantic Seaboard.

The geographic realities of Pittsburgh make it utterly incompatible with the label of midwest. The city layout, architecture, neighborhood housing, streets ect are much much much more indicitive of a northeastern city than a midwestern city.

Once I flew over downtown Chicago, Indianapolis, Cleveland and Pittsburgh all in one day and I am telling you three of the cities had major similarities and one looked completely different, almost like a different planet in comparision - I am guessing you can figure out it was Pittsburgh.

I don't like the comparisions between Pittsburgh and Cleveland because Pittsburgh does itself a major disservice comparing itself to Cleveland. Pittsburgh is far more geographically interesting, incorporates its far better natural setting in a more beautiful way, has much better/beautiful architecture, Pgh has the best skyline in the country, has a much stronger medical, engineering and research base, better universities (on average), much much more cultural amenities (museums, ballet, opera, symphony etc), a richer history. Plus we have Mario Lemeiux - case closed.

Pittsburgh deserves to aim higher than Cleveland.

[PghUSA]

Although I disagree with your conclusion about NE vs. MW I applaud your comments about the 'burgh.

As much as I don't want us to be associated with Cleveland . . . I think of it this way, the whole commonwealth has a "east coast bias", similar to people from or of Buffalo, you say New York and one immediately thinks of Central Park, the ESB, Radio City etc. etc. etc. Buffalo is farther away from that then Boston, Philadelphia, DC and Montreal! Yet those metros have "unique flavor" while the unschooled believe Buffalo is just some big suburb of NYC. Philadelphia has so much cultural and iconic pull that most people have a hard time realizing where exactly Pittsburgh is (I have heard things like "that's ammish country isn't it?", and "yeah thats where Penn State" is etc.). It seems to those unfamiliar with the multistate region that Pennsylvania is the big bad city of Philly and then ammish and Scranton and Pittsburgh someplace up there?!

This is one of the reasons I tend to side with the people with the PhD's in regional airtraffic and aerodynamics at the FAA and regional economic/employment/industrial management at the Federal Reserve. The Army Corps of Engineers, the list goes on and on. There is some reason these governmental thinktanks of the best of the best classify Pittsburgh in a region that is NOT inclusive of Philly, NYC, DC etc.

[mjcatl2]

I really can't believe that this discussion is still going. As mentioned before. Pittsburgh is a Northeastern city. Period.

Yes it happens to be on the western end of the state as DC is the southern end of the Northest. So the hell what? something has to be at the edge and cities that border other regions will have certain flavors mixed in so what?

As for no sense of being in PA while in western PA is so absurd that I don't even know where to begin. States can and do have different subcultures and flavors.

[PghUSA]

yeah same here.

I don't think we are Kansas City but wow did those PhDs, statemen and managers really screw it up in the FAA, the Federal Reserve, Major League Baseball, the Army Corps of Engineers, the NFL, the Federal Home Loan Bank, Citizens Bank, National City, etc. etc. Somebody needs to give them the memo . . . or maybe they didn't screw up?

I admire everyone's passion of opinon on this, but there is a mountain of data from sources that are pretty impeachable that at the very least doesn't make this a clear win for NE. Outside of the NHL and the name of a college coference that includes Indiana, Kentucky, and Ohio, I haven't seen much to back up your passions on this question.

We are not Detroit or Chicago, but every time I look around we are being grouped with them more and more. How many headlines stated "midwest snowstorm" this past weekend? Detroit, Columbus and Pittsburgh. If we truly are NE, all those papers better get busy with the retractions. Something tells me they aren't.

I'd really like to see the data on us being in the NE. It has done wonders for Philadelphia which suffers under the same commonwealth fostered handicaps of taxes/business regs. Philadelphia has sold itself as a go-between for DC and NYC, if Pittsburgh could do that it'd be great. There is a reason that isn't flying, if I'm misguided show me the data . . . please.

[mjcatl2]

Pittsburgh got lumped into the snowstorm because if you look of how the storm fell, it covered mostly the Midwest and it just so happened to - gasp - cross the state line. Would they say the Midwest and Pittsburgh. Nope, it's easier to say Midwest.

As I mentioned before, there is a geographic boundary to all regions and on borders there is always spill over, Pittsburgh, like DC are essentially border towns of the Northeast. I really really really don't see a debate in this.

[Kasper]

I have never met a NATIVE Pittsburgher who considerd themselves to be a Midwesterner.

PghUSA I am becoming more and more convinced you work for the Mid-Western States Alliance Tourist Board. Are you origninally from Ohio perchance?

[PghUSA]

^^ lol, I have met several. As far as I go I was born in Forbes Regional back when it wasn't Forbes Regional and have lived in Greensburg, Ligonier, and Shadyside (as well as Orlando area of Florida).

To quote Dragnet . . . "Just the facts ma'am just the facts", everytime I fly from Pittsburgh to Orlando, Cleveland Center is directing my flight. When I make money or spend money the Cleveland Fed is crunching the numbers and reporting how its Mid-West district is doing to Washington, and in turn they make the decisions on how the economy will run in Pittsburgh based on data collected in Cleveland.

Norm Nardini is as Pittsburgh as they come and 'tucky isn't NE:

http://www.post-gazette.com/ae/20021010bonjovip5.asp

Again I seem to be in the minority on this board, this wasn't put forth as a poll, just a question, I respect everyones opinion on this and no I don't think we are "Midwest" without any further discussion, at best we are a hybrid.

But I would love to see something factual stating how we are NE other then a line drawn on a map by sea merchants in Philadelphia in the 1770s/1780s.

Your thoughts are welcomed on this but thats all the NE group has really presented . . . thoughts, that is well and good, but it won't refute the Federal Reserve Bank, MLB or the FAA among others, not even Norm Nardini . . . also 'tucky referred to the "land" beyond or adjacent to "Ohio Country" along the river, ex: Kentuck Knob here. It doesn't neccessarily refer to the once slaveholding state, the state refers to IT.

[mjcatl2]

When I make money or spend money the Cleveland Fed is crunching the numbers and reporting how its Mid-West district is doing to Washington, and in turn they make the decisions on how the economy will run in Pittsburgh based on data collected in Cleveland.

Not to trying to sound rude, but so what? There are a lot of alignments for a particular reason, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the topic it hand. These can be related to it, and they might not be. Perhaps they calculated back in the day where the next west Fed would be and Cleveland it was. So, they then put a radius around Cleveland and Pittsburgh falls into it. No one said that the 2 cities aren't close.

As long as I see replies, I will bring these points up. Regions have borders and the areas close to those borders will have natural overlap with neighboring border regions, but the overall flavor is still the region of which it sits. Pittsburgh may seem watered down compared to Philly in some aspects, but if you see the real Midwest, there is no comparision. And again as mentioned before, I know no person - not one from Pittsburgh that would consider themself to be Midwesterner. I never heard of such a thing until this thread.

the same applies to DC.

[Woonsocketier]

The Burgh is that weird middle ground in the East/Midwest region of this country. Rather than calling it the Midwest I would say it is in the Great Lakes region and has more in common with Detroit, Buffalo, Cleveland, Chicago etc. than it does with KC, St. Louis, and Minneapolis. I believe there needs to be a distinction between the upper Midwest/Great Lakes region and the Midwest/Great Plains. Pittsburgh surely isn't the Northeast though, I think thats primarily the BosWash megalopolis.

[TheGerbil]

For what it's worth, I once heard a visitor from Chicago call Pittsburgh "east coast."

[PghUSA]

Tells you how smart those Chicagoans are.

[leets]

Buffalo is in the same boat as Pit. It is in a disfunctional state dominated by a much larger city on the East coast. Even though it is officialy part of the north east it really has little in common with the flashy coastal cities. It has a lot of midwest influence but is still too east coast to be midwest. I started this thread becausse Urban Planet did not even have a rigional forum which included western New York. http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...topic=11794&hl=

I think midwest starts at Detroit.

Pit Cleve and Buff need to start their own region called Mid East (on second thought that has some bad conotations)

[urbanophile]

Pit Cleve and Buff need to start their own region called Mid East (on second thought that has some bad conotations)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Too bad there is so much rivalry between these cities that it is hard to think of all three as part of one region (even though they are). Pittsburgh would much rather be tied into the East Coast and live under the domination of the East Coast megapolis than be tied into a region that is dominated by Cleveland.

[PghUSA]

I've always seen as us more connected to Cleveland and the Ohio Valley and in a smaller degree (though it is along the line of Altoona so its much more east). I agree that under that distinction Cleveland sometimes holds sway, it is complicated by the fact that Harrisburg is by sheer numbers of legislators from Philly and its metroplex (even the Scrantons and Williamsports and Lancasters tend to side with Philly votes) dominated by Philadelphia and that is very well tied into the Boston-NY-Philly-Balt/Washington megametro.

[TheGerbil]

Too bad there is so much rivalry between these cities that it is hard to think of all three as part of one region (even though they are).  Pittsburgh would much rather be tied into the East Coast and live under the domination of the East Coast megapolis than be tied into a region that is dominated by Cleveland.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is true, I *don't* want to be part of a region where Cleveland is seen as the main city.

Since it is a bit bigger than Pgh it seems to always be the 'hub' when we are lumped in with it for any purpose. :/