Norfolk Hilton Project

[vdogg]

Hey Guys I just spoke with the Mayor at dinner and I have Hilton News  anybody care to hear????????? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just post it! But do so in the Hilton thread if you can. This is such a major project i don't want it overwhelming the development thread with its subsequent post. It can stand on its own.

[ToweringTurtle]

well i asked to pay for his tab and he gave this tidbit after knowing me for 6 years....16 floors from top to bottom and THATS IT KINDA A LET DOWN BUT O WELL

[vdogg]

well i asked to pay for his tab and he gave this tidbit after knowing me for 6 years....16 floors  from top to bottom  and  THATS IT  KINDA A LET DOWN BUT  O WELL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yuck! What the hell happened?

[vdogg]

well i asked to pay for his tab and he gave this tidbit after knowing me for 6 years....16 floors  from top to bottom  and  THATS IT  KINDA A LET DOWN BUT  O WELL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tell me thats at least on top of the conference center?

[ToweringTurtle]

i so hope to god hes pullin my chain

[vdogg]

i so hope to god hes pullin my chain

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope he is too. I cannot imagine a luxury hotel that is supposed to be Norfolks answer

to the Westin being so......well....inadequate. On that note, i think i need to move this to the Hilton thread.

[okinawatyphoon]

16 floors??!! WTF!! Lets hope that this is some kinda joke or fluke or something.

[vdogg]

i so hope to god hes pullin my chain

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know, i'm sorry, but i'm having a hard time buying this one. It just doesn't make any sense. I think he might be pulling your chain so when a much bigger project comes out you're like .

[rusthebuss]

I think turtle is messing with us. If it's so that really bites the big one.

[vdogg]

I think turtle is messing with us. If it's so that really bites the big one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just can't believe they would talk up a building that won't make a dent in our skyline for the better part of the year. A 16 story building doesn't belong there, all the taller buildings will laugh at it.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

So, this is my first post on this site, but by no means am I new to viewing it. As a disclaimer before I continue, I've often relied upon vdogg for information regarding most Southside projects over the last few months, so I am forever indebted.

Anywho, on to the real topic. I find it very hard to believe that the Hilton would be 16 floors for several reasons. Most notably, why would Norfolk drag us along for so long just to tell us we're getting a mere midrise tower? Also of note, how could 250 rooms possibly fit into the 16 floor tower? Unless the number of rooms has changed (which to my knowledge we're still in the 200's at least), fitting so many into a tower that short would be impossible. Not to speak with unsubtle hope and such, I would tend to think that 25 floors would be an understatement. The property where it's to be built isn't very large and wouldn't have the footprint to construct floors large enough to have that many rooms. But alas, I digress.

This is going to get fairly long, so bare with me... On to a slightly unrelated topic, I think the notion that Norfolk was/is waiting to see how tall the Westin will be is ludicrous. As stated on vbgov.com (I'll have to find where) new zoning laws no longer permit buildings in excess of 400 feet. DT Norfolk has no such laws meaning that they could build considerably taller with no problem and be guaranteed to beat VB, not that there's any competition or anything

[okinawatyphoon]

Welcome to the forums PeninsulaKiddo. Good analysis of the situation. Its true, it would be awfully hard to fit 250 Hilton rooms in a 16 floor tower with that small of a footprint.

[vdogg]

So, this is my first post on this site, but by no means am I new to viewing it.  As a disclaimer before I continue, I've often relied upon vdogg for information regarding most Southside projects over the last few months, so I am forever indebted. 

Anywho, on to the real topic.  I find it very hard to believe that the Hilton would be 16 floors for several reasons.  Most notably, why would Norfolk drag us along for so long just to tell us we're getting a mere midrise tower?  Also of note, how could 250 rooms possibly fit into the 16 floor tower?  Unless the number of rooms has changed (which to my knowledge we're still in the 200's at least), fitting so many into a tower that short would be impossible.  Not to speak with unsubtle hope and such, I would tend to think that 25 floors would be an understatement.  The property where it's to be built isn't very large and wouldn't have the footprint to construct floors large enough to have that many rooms.  But alas, I digress.

This is going to get fairly long, so bare with me...  On to a slightly unrelated topic, I think the notion that Norfolk was/is waiting to see how tall the Westin will be is ludicrous.  As stated on vbgov.com (I'll have to find where) new zoning laws no longer permit buildings in excess of 400 feet.  DT Norfolk has no such laws meaning that they could build considerably taller with no problem and be guaranteed to beat VB, not that there's any competition or anything   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very good first post , and welcome to the forum. I am aware of the zoning laws and actually posted them on this forum. That being said, the law does allow for the council to grant variances and the final decision is always with them, so don't start breathing too easy . You are correct that Norfolk has no such laws but they seem to be afraid of that magic 30 story number for some reason. Lets hope their "significantly taller" statement doesn't get significantly shorter over time.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

Very good first post , and welcome to the forum. I am aware of the zoning laws and actually posted them on this forum. That being said, the law does allow for the council to grant variances and the final decision is always with them, so don't start breathing too easy  .  You are correct that Norfolk has no such laws but they seem to be afraid of that magic 30 story number for some reason. Lets hope their "significantly taller" statement doesn't get significantly shorter over time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm... true about the variances. But nonetheless, I would imagine that with Oceana a mere 2 1/2 miles away, their laws may have to be enforced at a certain point. Either way, I kind of hope that Norfolk doesn't "chicken out" and begin to scale back on the heights of the buildings being proposed. I also hold out hope that if Virginia Beach exceeds 30, perhaps Norfolk will as well, but that remains to be seen. I still think it would be a shame if the skyline of Norfolk remained extremely flat. I love the city so much, but it needs a little... verticality in prime spots.

[okinawatyphoon]

If the Westin can't exceed 400 ft, the Granby Tower very well may.

[ace707]

well i asked to pay for his tab and he gave this tidbit after knowing me for 6 years....16 floors

[krdarden]

I'm just wondering... if you know him personally, how come you don't get info about projects and let us know about it more often? Honestly coming out of the blue to give that piece of "info" makes it hard to believe. I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just wondering 'cause if you know him personally, how about hooking us up with unanswered questions and details about other projects. I don't think confidentiality is really jeapordized by being more open here because I'm sure no one up here would run to the pilot or some media outlet and "leak" the info to ruin a project (even though city officials themselves have a track record for letting news outlets get details way ahead of time [cough Trader cough] before a deal is even made).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I find it hard to believe that the city of Norfolk would go to such lenghts as building a $30 million convention center just to entice the construction of a 16 story Hilton hotel which by all means will have a smaller footprint than the nearby Marriott. I also agree that it is hard to imagine 250 rooms in a 16 story tower when before they promoted it as a 25 story hotel! Perhaps the mayor just wants to see how far the rumor will travel before the true announcement is made. Perhaps he wants VaBeach to believe that we will only be constructing a small hotel and then WHAM, announce a 38 story Hilton/Convention hotel!

[willy]

Mayor Fraim said on Feb. 14 of this year on Norfolk.gov in the city council updates section, DT will have 250 luxurious rooms under construction soon.

[JohnnyCockfight]

Variances cannot be granted for something like getting around a building-height limitation. Variances only exist as fall-back options to keep zoning ordinances from being unconstitutional. One example of an appropriate use of a variance would be when the zoning ordinance essentially approaches confiscation of property. A limit of, say, 400 feet, obviously would not be a confiscation of property.

The remedy would be a "special exception," a "special use permit," or simply creating a new set of zoning ordinances for that specific geographic area (i.e., "downtown Virginia Beach" only).

[ace707]

Mayor Fraim said on Feb. 14 of this year on Norfolk.gov in the city council updates section, DT will have 250 luxurious rooms under construction soon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is true. That is the only concrete information we have in addition to what the mayor said is that the parking lot, Decker building and IKON building being razed for it. The Southern half of strip of buildings along Granby remaining makes a smaller footprint and it is almost unlikely that the building will only be 16 floors, have an 800-space parking garage, a 90,000 sq. ft conference and convention center (which I bet will be 2, maybe 3 stories alone) then stack 250 4-star hotel rooms on top of it in the remaining 14 floors (assuming that the garage isn't built on the lower floors which is also not recommended when it comes to high-rise hospitality projects because they pose as an inconvience).

In the end this could be true even though so much says otherwise. Practically every project got bigger than when first proposed. I do believe what y'all said earlier that it could be to see how far the rumor goes and/or that it's being said 16 floors to see if Va. Beach will chop some floors off the Westin but I don't know. In the end its seems more like trying to mislead us to think its been cut smaller than suddenly an announcement comes and it will be taller! I put it 25 floors like originally planned but I think it could be as tall as 35 floors. YEAH I SAID IT! "Significantly taller than what we have now" wasn't said last year by city officials for nothing.

[ace707]

Hey ToweringTurtle I see you online in this thread right now. I hope you're not laughing at us lol

[urbanfan]

Unfortunately, I do not think the Hilton Hotel will be more than 25 stories. It is basically on the front row of buildings on downtown's skyline. I typically think that any building on the front row will be in the twenty to twenty-five floor range so that taller buildings can be built behind this row and still provide views of the water. Most cities build in layers like this and I don't see downtown doing differently. However, I find it hard to beleive that the city would go through all of this trouble of building a convention center and garage for a hotel that is less than adequate. Why would the city jump through all these hoops and go out on a limb if the developer suddenly downsized. I don't see it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Hopefully that announcement is coming within the next week.

[Seven Cities]

16 floors from top to bottom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a major letdown, and as much as we may not like it, this makes sense. Here is a rough comparison, just to get the basic concept: The Norfolk Waterside Marriott has close to 400 rooms on 24 floors so 250 rooms on 16 floors sounds about right.

Its just wishful thinking here, but maybe the 250 rooms figure has changed to maybe more like 300 or 400 and we just havent heard about it. Dont forget that we have heard next to nothing other than the conference center. Keep in mind that 250 figure came out sometime last year. Things change. In the case of this project, hopefully things will change for the better. You would think that a Hilton would want to be competitive with a big rival such as the Marriott right across the street from it. The Hilton will have something to offer - a larger conference facilty than the Marriott. I don't think they would want to have a group use the larger Hilton conference center and have a majority of the participants stay at the rival hotel across the street because it has more rooms.

It is basically on the front row of buildings on downtown's skyline.  I typically think that any building on the front row will be in the twenty to twenty-five floor range so that taller buildings can be built behind this row and still provide views of the water.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Look at whats on the same side as the planned Hilton - Main St. Tower and BB&T. I think that Main St. is 14 stories and BB&T is 17. I don't think this has anything to do with water views. If it does, it may have something to do with Trader. Depending on where and how the Hilton is built, it may block some view of the Portsmouth waterfront from Trader's upper floors, but I feel that is not really important. I would think that if you are going to attract clients to your hotel, water views from upper floors would be a big sticking point. The higher up you go, the better. 16 floors just doesnt sound like it would cut it. Its time to build higher behind the Main. St. core of NS, BofA, and Marriott. Norfolk has to start building taller in the CBD - and a 25-30 story Hilton would be a great beginning.

[urbanfan]

Here is a rough comparison, just to get the basic concept: The Norfolk Waterside Marriott has close to 400 rooms on 24 floors so 250 rooms on 16 floors sounds about right. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To use this logic you would have to believe that a more luxurious Hilton Hotel would have the same size rooms as the Marriott hotel. I don't think that is an option. Not to mention that the footprint for the Hilton seems to be a little smaller. Somebody is pulling our chain. There is no way that City Council would bust thier tails and spend tax dollars on a convention center and parking garage for a hotel that is only sixteen stories tall with small rooms. At least I hope their not that stupid.

[ToweringTurtle]

Hey Guys No I am not laughing I am sad BUT the mayor looked directly at me through non completely glazed over eyes..hehe and said 16 for the hilton and even went on to say the rumors of a 40 story office tower on plume are w/o merit. another let down.

Remember as I dont need to remind you guys this is Norfolk Va not Dallas and I remember a conversation I had with Robert Stanton of Stanton Partners who developed 150 West main and about 1 billion dollars of other developments downtown since 1969...in this conversation he was speaking of harvey lindsays venture Dominion Tower, which by the way, is still the largest speculative office building ever built in Va outside of Alaxandria to date....saying" this building is not for Norfolk BUT for Dallas it will not make a profit for many years" In reality it took 8 years to fill to 95% and the owners nearly went bankrupt to protect this asset. He went on th explain Norfolk is a small city with large responsibilities and NOT a headquarters town." end quote And Today I believe all developers downtown have the Dominion Tower Fear...

To fill Dominion Tower w/ small companies took along time, and unless the development office is luring currently a company that will bring 2,000 plus new jobs its not going to happen. Lets Hope they Are....