sports in norfolk

[Padman]

The stadiums tend to draw clients around them which would benefit the host city! Usually the city that hosts them puts a special tax district their to help pay for the costs! Where would the other cities benefit from that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Those clients would probably be small businesses and vendors (depending on the location). The tax assessments on those businesses could be shared by participating jurisdictions/parties through an agreeable formula.

But I'm thinking about more general benefits that would be regional in scope, corporate relocations--things like that. Those benefit the region, which gains great visibility that it would otherwise not have from having major league franchises. It's not easy to calculate those benefits in monetary terms, although many consultants do so, usually to provide political justification. Don't you think that Busch Gardens benefits the region? How about the oceanfront, or the Chrysler Museum? It's the same idea.

[rusthebuss]

Those clients would probably be small businesses and vendors (depending on the location).  The tax assessments on those businesses could be shared by participating jurisdictions/parties through an agreeable formula.

But I'm thinking about more general benefits that would be regional in scope, corporate relocations--things like that.  Those benefit the region, which gains great visibility that it would otherwise not have from having major league franchises.  It's not easy to calculate those benefits in monetary terms, although many consultants do so, usually to provide political justification.  Don't you think that Busch Gardens benefits the region? How about the oceanfront, or the Chrysler Museum?  It's the same idea.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Those things that you state are all beneficial to the hosting city. I agree that it should be like that but lets be honest, the 7 cities can't even work together to have the same mode of mass transit! It will never happen with the fighting mentality of the cities. If it happens it will be Norfolk alone financially.

[hoobo]

Those clients would probably be small businesses and vendors (depending on the location).  The tax assessments on those businesses could be shared by participating jurisdictions/parties through an agreeable formula.

But I'm thinking about more general benefits that would be regional in scope, corporate relocations--things like that.  Those benefit the region, which gains great visibility that it would otherwise not have from having major league franchises.  It's not easy to calculate those benefits in monetary terms, although many consultants do so, usually to provide political justification.  Don't you think that Busch Gardens benefits the region? How about the oceanfront, or the Chrysler Museum?  It's the same idea.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Taxes generated at the facility go towards debt service. The pro sport laws passed in Virginia (baseball stadium in NoVa and arena in Norfolk) also directed all income taxes gained from players' income as well as from team employees' income to debt service. So already the stadium and the team is a zero sum equation under ideal conditions. There is the possibility that tax generation exceeds debt service so that all stadium investors get a distribution. But there's also a chance that tax generation is lower than expected and the investors have to cover the difference.

As for business relocations, how is that really calculated? A lot goes into relocations: tax incentives, quality of life, schools, transportation infrastructure, etc. If pro teams were key to success, then New Orleans should be trumping Birhmingham in business and per capita income. Buffalo's economy should be gaining not receding. Many of these pro team cities had a good business climate before a pro team came. Nashville, Memphis, Raleigh, and Columbus all had strong business sectors before a team came. North Carolina's loose banking rules helped Charlotte boom. BofA and Wachovia started in Charlotte. They grew by buying out other banks and eventually taking on their more recognized names. Raleigh and Columbus are fueled by their universities. HR would be helped a lot more if ODU is turned into a research powerhouse.

Finally, there are meal and sales taxes captured from the additional traffic directly related to the arena. People going to a game will probably eat dinner before or have drinks after the event. They may swing by near-by stores and by things. These indirect effects create more tax revenue for the city in which the stadium is located. In turn, these people may have eaten in another city, so that city loses out on tax revenue.

Anyway, to the doubters that think businesses don't know where Norfolk, VB, or any of HR cities are, look through one of the business magazines. Anytime Norfolk or VB are mentioned, they don't add Va. They don't need to because businessmen know where those cities are. The problem is the HR moniker. The area is always referred in the national media as the tidewater area of Virginia. Such as so-and-so is from Newport News in the football hotbed of the tidewater area of Virginia. HR would be better helped by reverting back to Tidewater and doing a better identity marketing job aimed to businessmen than chasing after the ever-elusive pro team.

[Padman]

Hoobo; I appreciate your points but I wouldn't suggest that a sports franchise is the key to any area's economic success--just one advantage of perhaps several. And the name "Hampton Roads" might not be so mysterious if it were attached to an NFL football team. I really don't think going back to the name "Tidewater" is such a good idea, at least not after what happened last week. Our identity does remain a problem, though.

[rusthebuss]

Hoobo; I appreciate your points but I wouldn't suggest that a sports franchise is the key to any area's economic success--just one advantage of perhaps several.  And the name "Hampton Roads" might not be so mysterious if it were attached to an NFL football team.  I really don't think going back to the name "Tidewater" is such a good idea, at least not after what happened last week.  Our identity does remain a problem, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What happened last week? Also if a team comes to Norfolk, it won't be named Tidewater or Hampton Roads but Norfolk, which it should be. Norfolk would use the team for a marketing tool for the city.

[Padman]

What happened last week? Also if a team comes to Norfolk, it won't be named Tidewater or Hampton Roads but Norfolk, which it should be. Norfolk would use the team for a marketing tool for the city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Katrina, which decimated low lying areas. As far as naming the team the Norfolk so and so's versus the Hampton Roads So and sos, who in their right mind really cares?

[rusthebuss]

Katrina, which decimated low lying areas.  As far as naming the team the Norfolk so and so's versus the Hampton Roads So and sos, who in their right mind really cares?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The city and citizens hosting it would really care!

[Padman]

The city and citizens hosting it would really care!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then I submit that we (the 7 cities) are hopelessly parochial and cannot work together as a unit. Oh well, minor league is good enough I guess.

[hoobo]

Charleston was hit by Hugo yet that area is still called the Lowcountry. HR is a coastal area. That is actually one of its selling points. America has moved to the coast which is why these hurricanes are so devastating. Anyway, HR isn't really a hurricane-prone area. Nor'easters are the bigger problem but they're not as harsh. If hurricanes are a major issues then why is Florida one of the fastest growing states?

As for the 7 cities coming together, there has to be something for each of them. I believe it was Oklahoma City which collaborated with surrounding cities and counties on a multi-facility package. That package included Ford Arena which OKC is now pitching as a temporary home for the Hornets. This package would have worked like this for HR: arena for Norfolk; convention centers for VB, Chesapeake, and Hampton; new city hall for Portsmouth; a marina for Suffolk; and some kind of downtown revitalization for NN. Looking at the cost of each facility, it would break down as Norfolk and VB at 22% and Chesapeake, Hampton, and NN at 15%, and Suffolk and Portsmouth at 5.5%. Everyone gets what they want. In addition, interest is lower because the amount is huge, there's lots of collateral, and cities with strong financial ratings can reduce the interest cost of the overall package. Unfortunately, it looks like Hampton, Chesapeake, VB, and Suffolk are done with these kind of projects for a while.

[Padman]

Unfortunately, that does appear to be the case for now. I know that Va. Beach is now very reluctant to take on anything new.

I do wonder though what effect more and more violent hurricanes will have on the Gulf area and Florida's future growth. I wouldn't move there. Whether it's global warming or a recurring cycle, the land of sunshine and low taxes just doesn't look too attractive to me. You'd never guess that from the condo boom there though.

Anyway, we're left with a few observations on the collaborative sports facility idea.

The benefits and costs must be dispersed fairly among jurisdictions

The name of the team and it's identified home are issues

It is very difficult to pool regional resources on any costly project

The local private sector doesn't seem endowed enough to step up

Other frustrations: Richmond has money but is just a little too far away, especially with our dated highway system, which is pushing it bit further each year.

Anything hopeful? Or should we just wait a bit longer?

[rusthebuss]

Unfortunately, that does appear to be the case for now.  I know that Va. Beach is now very reluctant to take on anything new.

I do wonder though what effect more and more violent hurricanes will have on the Gulf area and Florida's future growth.  I wouldn't move there.  Whether it's global warming or a recurring cycle,  the land of sunshine and low taxes just doesn't look too attractive to me.  You'd never guess that from the condo boom there though.

Anyway, we're left with a few observations on the collaborative sports facility idea.

The benefits and costs must be dispersed fairly among jurisdictions

The name of the team and it's identified home are issues

It is very difficult to pool regional resources on any costly project

The local private sector doesn't seem endowed enough to step up

Other frustrations: Richmond has money but is just a little too far away, especially with our dated highway system, which is pushing it bit further each year. 

Anything hopeful?  Or should we just wait a bit longer?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who knows but I'm really getting frustrated with this area and the lack to attract a team. I do know that. The problem with that is that you would have to pay the hosting city more because of the land used and I know the cities would fight thinking they weren't getting what they wanted out of the deal and then back out.

[hoobo]

Unfortunately, that does appear to be the case for now.  I know that Va. Beach is now very reluctant to take on anything new.

I do wonder though what effect more and more violent hurricanes will have on the Gulf area and Florida's future growth.  I wouldn't move there.  Whether it's global warming or a recurring cycle,  the land of sunshine and low taxes just doesn't look too attractive to me.  You'd never guess that from the condo boom there though.

Anyway, we're left with a few observations on the collaborative sports facility idea.

The benefits and costs must be dispersed fairly among jurisdictions

The name of the team and it's identified home are issues

It is very difficult to pool regional resources on any costly project

The local private sector doesn't seem endowed enough to step up

Other frustrations: Richmond has money but is just a little too far away, especially with our dated highway system, which is pushing it bit further each year. 

Anything hopeful?  Or should we just wait a bit longer?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hurricane activity come in cycles. The building boom coincided with a lull in hurricane activity. There were horrible hurricanes 60 years ago but not many people lived in hurricane-prone areas so no one cared. It's different today. Warmer and rising oceans don't help either.

Now for sports:

The local private sector has money. NS, Smithfield, Dollar Tree, Amerigroup, Stihl, General Foam Plastics, Landmark, Northrup Grumman, Siemens, Busch, Cox, Verizon, Ford, USAA, BofA, Wachovia, Suntrust, etc. There's a strong corporate presence that is often forgotten. Richmond may have more F-500 there, but HR has its fair share of strong local companies and regional HQs.

Regional sources aren't needed. VB was able to finance its $200 million convention center as well as a $31 million garage and tens of millions for TC. Norfolk put in $100 million for MacArthur while still paying for Nauticus. Now they're building a cruise ship terminal and planning to replace the courts complex. Given the way a sports arena bill is designed by the state, Norfolk can build one now if given a pro team. In the coming years, given the boom in real estate taxes, it might be able to build one without a pro team. Having the Admirals, a likely NBDL team, and a possible AFL team on top of other shows and concerts, an arena could be self-sustaining. A stadium is a different issue. Norfolk would need a tenant for a stadium to ever happen. An arena like OKC's Ford Arena will happen in the next 5 years.

Any pro team must be a one city effort with Norfolk or VB being the only two candidates. There is no financial or political incentive for any other city to get involved. Chesapeake is responsible for its citizens not for VB or Norfolk. Same for all other cities. Even in a county set-up, incorporated cities wouldn't want to support an arena in another town.

[hoobo]

It looks like the Saints will move to either L.A., San Antonio, or San Diego (with the Chargers moving to L.A.).

The Hornets, given their location in the Western Conference, may move to OKC (NBA-caliber Ford Arena), St. Louis (Savvis Center), KC (arena under construction), or Stern's favorite, Vegas. I'd vote for Vegas, because that would open up HR as an NBA expansion site (Baltimore and KC/St. Louis being the others). With Vegas gettting a pro team, it helps HR's MLB chances since the other areas; Portland, Sacto, and Charlotte; are equivalent to HR in supporting a team.

[rusthebuss]

It looks like the Saints will move to either L.A., San Antonio, or San Diego (with the Chargers moving to L.A.).

The Hornets, given their location in the Western Conference, may move to OKC (NBA-caliber Ford Arena), St. Louis (Savvis Center), KC (arena under construction), or Stern's favorite, Vegas.  I'd vote for Vegas, because that would open up HR as an NBA expansion site (Baltimore and KC/St. Louis  being the others).  With Vegas gettting a pro team, it helps HR's MLB chances since the other areas; Portland, Sacto, and Charlotte; are equivalent to HR in supporting a team.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where did you hear that the chargers where moving to LA?

[hoobo]

Where did you hear that the chargers where moving to LA?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's been a lot of speculation. Spanos, the owner, has been wanting to move but the league has been reluctant since SD is a good NFL market. Woody Paige (on Cold Pizza this monring) said he heard from a league source that the NFL is looking at this scenario. It's viable because the commish wants a team in L.A. (like Selig wanted on in DC and Stern wants one in Vegas) and Spanos wants to be in L.A. By moving the Chargers and replacing them with the Saints, Tag and Spanos get their L.A. team while SD isn't robbed of a team. All I know is that the name Saints would make sense in any of the 3 cities since two of them are named after saints and the other is the (Ciduad de) Los Angeles.

Edited September 6, 2005 by hoobo

[rusthebuss]

What do you guys think is the key to us not getting a team? Why are we unattractive to the Major Leagues?

[Greekboy80]

What do you guys think is the key to us not getting a team? Why are we unattractive to the Major Leagues?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lack of a major looking downtown area, population, and public transportation(Rail).

Like I have said before, all the 7 cities trying to "1 up" the next (Va beach & Norfolk mainly) is hurting the area as a whole. As long as we have Va Beach and Norfolk battling, this area will never grow, or look like it should.

We get no respect because we hold each other down. Each city has their own agenda.

[Padman]

Lack of a major looking downtown area, population, and public transportation(Rail).

Like I have said before, all the 7 cities trying to "1 up" the next (Va beach & Norfolk mainly) is hurting the area as a whole. As long as we have Va Beach and Norfolk battling, this area will never grow, or look like it should.

We get no respect because we hold each other down. Each city has their own agenda.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's why I think the the two south side gorillas (at least) need to work together on some of these issues. I'm still not convinced that the local private sector has either the clout or the volition to successfuly pursue major league sports at this time. We do have a "major league" orchestra, however, which is really remarkable for a community with beer rather than champagne tastes. We get very generous support from corporate sponsors for the arts.

[rusthebuss]

Do you guys think we really have a chance to get a team in all honesty? Do you guys think we are looking to far out? Are we underrated for a reason that we just don't see?

[hoobo]

Do you guys think we really have a chance to get a team in all honesty? Do you guys think we are looking to far out? Are we underrated for a reason that we just don't see?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jax has a team. San Antonio has a team. Nashville, Charlotte, and New Orleans have two. I don't buy the lack of corporate support, too small of a region, or too low of a per capita income. I think the perception of HR is it will be like Atlanta and be sunny-day fans who really aren't interested in their "hometown" team since their hometown is somewhere else. That's the problem: fan interest. There's the money for support, just not the interest. Say what you will, but if HR fans really cared about sports they'd fill the seats no matter the team level or record. Rochester gets over 10 grand for its USL games while the Mariners can't even draw 1000. The Tides get around 8000 filling only 75% of Harbor Park's capacity and they do well on the field. The Admirals are lucky to get 5000 at its games. I know Scope blows, but if people cared they'd show up. Where are the fans?

Edited September 6, 2005 by hoobo

[Padman]

I do think we have a chance. But we need some form of leadership and commitment to make it happen. We were briefly a big league area when we had the ABA Squires. Those were exciting times and a the team gave us a great sense of regional pride. The team was known as the Virginia Squires, and there was much discussion about the potential benefits of regionalism in the early '70s. Attendance was not too great, even in Scope, which was undersized for the NBA even then.

The past 25 years or so haven't been especially promising for regionalism, with a few exceptions.

We also hosted the Neptunes of the Continental Football League, which drew very well. I believe our attendance usually exceeded Jacksonville's, and most other franchises in that league. I was a believer then, but costs have risen a great deal since.

I think it can be done, but it's going to take creativity, patience and persistance. And being good Virginians, thinking outside of the box is sometimes painful.

[rusthebuss]

Most people on here don't think that a team will bring us the businesses but I will still argue that it helps big time in attraction factor! I hope we do get a shot in the very near future. I've dreamed of taking my family to a pro game in my home town. I don't know if it will become a reality or not but I'm doing my best to have faith in my town.

[Padman]

Most people on here don't think that a team will bring us the businesses but I will still argue that it helps big time in attraction factor! I hope we do get a shot in the very near future. I've dreamed of taking my family to a pro game in my home town. I don't know if it will become a reality or not but I'm doing my best to have faith in my town.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Keep that faith Russ! This is a great place to live with or without the teams. Isn't it fun seeing this downtown come alive? That may be the first step. When more companies realize what a nice area this is we may get more than we bargained for.

[Greekboy80]

Most people on here don't think that a team will bring us the businesses but I will still argue that it helps big time in attraction factor! I hope we do get a shot in the very near future. I've dreamed of taking my family to a pro game in my home town. I don't know if it will become a reality or not but I'm doing my best to have faith in my town.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Russ, i have the same dream, but in mine we ride the metro to and from the game and we stop in downtown to eat dinner at a special resturant. i also want to do that with my grandchildren aswell.

It will happen, the day has to come. i plan on that happening before i die. i have about 70 years left.

[rusthebuss]

Russ, i have the same dream, but in mine we ride the metro to and from the game and we stop in downtown to eat dinner at a special resturant. i also want to do that with my grandchildren aswell.

It will happen, the day has to come. i plan on that happening before i die. i have about 70 years left. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dude I hope to see it in my lifetime. I too hope that lightrail comes about and could ride it around the city, even better around the metro area!