sports in norfolk

[ace707]

[/qu

I think they are looking where to put and thats why they where talking about putting it next to harbor park. Then taking scope out and building high rises there.

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[rusthebuss]

[/qu

I think they are looking where to put and thats why they where talking about putting it next to harbor park. Then taking scope out and building high rises there.

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Even putting high-rises on the current site of Scope and Chrysler Hall seems a little far-fetched for me to imagine. It could happen but the flow of high-rises will be broken with MacArthur Center and the Granby district separating the financial district and the Northern perimeter of Downtown. Just look at Granby Towers, AT&T tower and the Radisson hotel, they are away from the financial district so they all will make Downtown look like 2 separate downtowns which isn't bad, but I think skylines look better in a line rather than airspace between them.

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[JPN0731]

Build the arena on the city line of Norfolk/Chesapeake in Berkely/South Norfolk, get that area renovated and split the costs between the two cities...

Seriously this is a big yawn. All the cities are determined to outmanoevre each other and so in the end we'll get nothing. If Norfolk would have been smarter, the could have helped pay for a huge Constant Center that would have been a boost to ODU and the city.

[rusthebuss]

nobody wants to help norfolk with anything

[ace707]

nobody wants to help norfolk with anything

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maybe but then again, i think almost every city around here are more about themselves than their neighbor. I think Norfolk is kinda selfish but then again, they also seem more vocal on unity and teamwork than other cities so i guess it depends on the topic or issue at hand lol

[okinawatyphoon]

I think Norfolk should go for the new arena in downtown, not by Harbor Park. I think the scope should be torn down and build a nice 20,000 seater. thats my opinion anyway. scope is ok, i've been in it many times, but its just too small. We need something bigger and classier.

[rusthebuss]

maybe but then again, i think almost every city around here are more about themselves than their neighbor. I think Norfolk is kinda  selfish but then again, they also seem more vocal on unity and teamwork than other cities so i guess it depends on the topic or issue at hand lol

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Norfolk has been in the making for 450 years, unlike Vabeach and the other cities. I think they have a right in saying the things that they say.

[ace707]

Norfolk has been in the making for 450 years, unlike Vabeach and the other cities. I think they have a right in saying the things that they say.

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Yeah I guess as long as other cities don't take it personally or the wrong way (which I doubt. I do sense Va. Beach still being pissed that Trader is coming to downtown rather than Town Center. Remember that one Va. Beach official saying "Downtown Norfolk isn't any better traffic-wise..." That is definitely an inner anger about one of the reasons why Trader decided not to go to Town Center.) On a little more hypocritical manner, remember Va. Beach saying they were very concerned about Norfolk offering incentives to Trader but Va. Beach did the same by offering a $13 million parking garage. Va. Beach loses only 500 jobs to Norfolk but isn't Va. Beach the one that took thousands of jobs as well as population from Norfolk in the last 2 decades? hmmm...

Edited March 21, 2005 by ace707

[willy]

Va. Beach loses only 500 jobs to Norfolk but isn't Va. Beach the one that took thousands of jobs as well as population from Norfolk in the last 2 decades? hmmm...

And Norfolk is still prosperous! They can't stand it!

I remember Va. Beach city council saying that they didn't want to connect to downtown Norfolk via LRT because they didn't want the "BAD" element from Norfolk coming VB. Bet they wish they could take that back now.

[rusthebuss]

Yeah I guess as long as other cities don't take it personally or the wrong way (which I doubt. I do sense Va. Beach still being pissed that Trader is coming to downtown rather than Town Center. Remember that one Va. Beach official saying "Downtown Norfolk isn't any better traffic-wise..." That is definitely an inner anger about one of the reasons why Trader decided not to go to Town Center.) On a little more hypocritical manner, remember Va. Beach saying they were very concerned about Norfolk offering incentives to Trader but Va. Beach did the same by offering a $13 million parking garage. Va. Beach loses only 500 jobs to Norfolk but isn't Va. Beach the one that took thousands of jobs as well as population from Norfolk in the last 2 decades? hmmm...

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What people don't realize is that the trader hq is already in downtown norfolk and it started in norfolk so vabeach can stick it where the sun don't shine. They came about in the 60's and they think think they run the show. Va beach is arrogant and they need to wake up dude.

Edited March 21, 2005 by rusthebuss

[rusthebuss]

Don't take me the wrong way here but I honestly think a 20,000-seat arena is too big. There aren't very many 20,000 seat arenas in the NBA (Chicago and L.A. both come in at around 24,000 for basketball). I think 18,000 to maybe 19,000 is a better fit for our region but then again, if history has anything to say about it, 20,000 could be better in the long run since Scope was considered a big arena back in the day and look now, it's too small for events. So we'll see what happens with the arena,  as long as the city is looking in the long-run rather than the short-term.

Just out of curiousity (and sake for a conversation), what is the likelyhood of Va. Beach making an arena in Town Center and how do you think that would affect either Norfolk, Va. Beach or the region in general in getting a team? Would both Norfolk and Va.Beach making arenas be a good thing or bad?

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VaBeach doesn't want anything to do with an arena. They are concentrating on building a downtown right now they have a ways to go before they would talk about an arena.

[vdogg]

Yeah I guess as long as other cities don't take it personally or the wrong way (which I doubt. I do sense Va. Beach still being pissed that Trader is coming to downtown rather than Town Center. Remember that one Va. Beach official saying "Downtown Norfolk isn't any better traffic-wise..." That is definitely an inner anger about one of the reasons why Trader decided not to go to Town Center.) On a little more hypocritical manner, remember Va. Beach saying they were very concerned about Norfolk offering incentives to Trader but Va. Beach did the same by offering a $13 million parking garage. Va. Beach loses only 500 jobs to Norfolk but isn't Va. Beach the one that took thousands of jobs as well as population from Norfolk in the last 2 decades? hmmm...

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Va. Beach can't "take" anything from Norfolk that they didn't give up. The reason you see Norfolk prospering now is because they finally decided to step up and put forth the effort to make themselves an attractive and marketable city. Until about the last decade, that effort was truly lacking.

[ace707]

Va. Beach can't "take" anything from Norfolk that they didn't give up. The reason you see Norfolk prospering now is because they finally decided to step up and put forth the effort to make themselves an attractive and marketable city. Until about the last decade, that effort was truly lacking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So buying back all that land and then developing on it or getting developers to work on it, waterside, Omni hotel (now known as the Sheraton), Dominion Tower, Sovran Bank Tower (now known as Bank of America), World Trade Center, Norfolk Southern Tower, BB&T tower, former Southtrust Bank tower and many other properties all existed before 1990 but not in 1980, a full 15+ years ago and they don't count as effort? Then in the 1990's we see more action from the city in the form of Harbor Park baseball stadium, Nauticus, MacArthur Center Mall and yada yada yada. From what I can remember, I learned Norfolk has been busting it's ass to re-develop downtown since the 1960's everything from buying properties and tearing down buildings all the way to convincing private investment today. There's one notable thing I learned from both of my economic classes and it is you cannot build a genuine downtown within a decade. It took decades upon decades to make it what it is now. One of my economic's professor's told the class one time, Town Center is still suburban sprawl based on it's lack of character and it's similarity to that new shopping plaza near your neighborhood. "Slapping a high-rise office tower, a high-rise apartment building, and a high-rise hotel along a grid of streets is hardly the business-centric and retail icon of a downtown."

[okinawatyphoon]

So buying back all that land and then developing on it or getting developers to work on it, waterside, Omni hotel (now known as the Sheraton), Dominion Tower, Sovran Bank Tower (now known as Bank of America), World Trade Center, Norfolk Southern Tower, BB&T tower, former Southtrust Bank tower and many other properties all existed before 1990 but not in 1980, a full 15+ years ago and they don't count as effort? Then in the 1990's we see more action from the city in the form of Harbor Park baseball stadium, Nauticus, MacArthur Center Mall and yada yada yada. From what I can remember, I learned Norfolk has been busting it's ass to re-develop downtown since the 1960's everything from buying properties and tearing down buildings all the way to convincing private investment today. There's one notable thing I learned from both of my economic classes and it is you cannot build a genuine downtown within a decade. It took decades upon decades to make it what it is now. One of my economic's professor's told the class one time, Town Center is still suburban sprawl based on it's lack of character and it's similarity to that new shopping plaza near your neighborhood. "Slapping a high-rise office tower, a high-rise apartment building, and a high-rise hotel along a grid of streets is hardly the business-centric and retail icon of a downtown."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow...the part about not being able to build a downtown in a decade is very true. I'm speechless....can't think of anything to add right now. Well said.

[rusthebuss]

So buying back all that land and then developing on it or getting developers to work on it, waterside, Omni hotel (now known as the Sheraton), Dominion Tower, Sovran Bank Tower (now known as Bank of America), World Trade Center, Norfolk Southern Tower, BB&T tower, former Southtrust Bank tower and many other properties all existed before 1990 but not in 1980, a full 15+ years ago and they don't count as effort? Then in the 1990's we see more action from the city in the form of Harbor Park baseball stadium, Nauticus, MacArthur Center Mall and yada yada yada. From what I can remember, I learned Norfolk has been busting it's ass to re-develop downtown since the 1960's everything from buying properties and tearing down buildings all the way to convincing private investment today. There's one notable thing I learned from both of my economic classes and it is you cannot build a genuine downtown within a decade. It took decades upon decades to make it what it is now. One of my economic's professor's told the class one time, Town Center is still suburban sprawl based on it's lack of character and it's similarity to that new shopping plaza near your neighborhood. "Slapping a high-rise office tower, a high-rise apartment building, and a high-rise hotel along a grid of streets is hardly the business-centric and retail icon of a downtown."

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I could not have said it better! And I have to add that VaBeach should be a little more orginal and not bite Reston, Va. in what they are building!

[vdogg]

So buying back all that land and then developing on it or getting developers to work on it, waterside, Omni hotel (now known as the Sheraton), Dominion Tower, Sovran Bank Tower (now known as Bank of America), World Trade Center, Norfolk Southern Tower, BB&T tower, former Southtrust Bank tower and many other properties all existed before 1990 but not in 1980, a full 15+ years ago and they don't count as effort? Then in the 1990's we see more action from the city in the form of Harbor Park baseball stadium, Nauticus, MacArthur Center Mall and yada yada yada. From what I can remember, I learned Norfolk has been busting it's ass to re-develop downtown since the 1960's everything from buying properties and tearing down buildings all the way to convincing private investment today. There's one notable thing I learned from both of my economic classes and it is you cannot build a genuine downtown within a decade. It took decades upon decades to make it what it is now. One of my economic's professor's told the class one time, Town Center is still suburban sprawl based on it's lack of character and it's similarity to that new shopping plaza near your neighborhood. "Slapping a high-rise office tower, a high-rise apartment building, and a high-rise hotel along a grid of streets is hardly the business-centric and retail icon of a downtown."

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Perhaps i should have qualified my statement a bit more by saying the residential development effort, until recently has been lacking. You mention all the office towers that were built during the 1980s, which is true, but that in and of itself created an image problem for downtown. At the time they were building towers without tennants, which created huge office vacancy rates (as demonstrated in this mid 1990s article http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot...8/04060199.htm)

As you stated correctly, you cannot build a downtown within in a decade. As with Virginia Beach, Norfolk had to start somewhere. The true and proper marketing and planning, i.e generating high end retail and attracting high end residential, really did not get started until the last decade. There are plenty of dead downtowns in this nation, with huge office towers and nothing going on in the streets after sundown. Norfolk has created an active downtown which i believe is a direct result of the planning of the last 10 years, MacArthur center, as a primary example. Virginia Beach may not have a "true" downtown for 20 years, but it will have one someday, this i firmly believe. I wish nothing but success for all of downtown Norfolks projects and i hope for continued prosperity. At the same time i choose to defend the towncenter concept because i believe it is the right thing to do, the right direction to be heading in. Just like Norfolk, Virginia Beach will try and fail many times with many concepts before they get something to succeed. In the end however, i believe success in towncenter is almost a guarantee.

Edited March 22, 2005 by vdogg

[rusthebuss]

Perhaps i should have qualified my statement a bit more by saying the residential development effort, until recently has been lacking. You mention all the office towers that were built during the 1980s, which is true, but that in and of itself created an image problem for downtown. At the time they were building towers without tennants, which created huge office vacancy rates (as demonstrated in this mid 1990s article http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot...8/04060199.htm)

As you stated correctly, you cannot build a downtown within in a decade. As with Virginia Beach, Norfolk had to start somewhere. The true and proper marketing and planning, i.e generating high end retail and attracting high end residential, really did not get started until the last decade. There are plenty of dead downtowns in this nation, with huge office towers and nothing going on in the streets after sundown. Norfolk has created an active downtown which i believe is a direct result of the planning of the last 10 years, MacArthur center, as a primary example. Virginia Beach may not have a "true" downtown for 20 years, but it will have one someday, this i firmly believe. I wish nothing but success for all of downtown Norfolks projects and i hope for continued prosperity. At the same time i choose to defend the towncenter concept because i believe it is the right thing to do, the right direction to be heading in. Just like Norfolk, Virginia Beach will try and fail many times with many concepts before they get something to succeed. In the end however, i believe success in towncenter is almost a guarantee.

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Of course, Va beach has alot more land to work with to show greater residental growth.

[ace707]

Perhaps i should have qualified my statement a bit more by saying the residential development effort, until recently has been lacking. You mention all the office towers that were built during the 1980s, which is true, but that in and of itself created an image problem for downtown. At the time they were building towers without tennants, which created huge office vacancy rates (as demonstrated in this mid 1990s article http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot...8/04060199.htm)

As you stated correctly, you cannot build a downtown within in a decade. As with Virginia Beach, Norfolk had to start somewhere. The true and proper marketing and planning, i.e generating high end retail and attracting high end residential, really did not get started until the last decade. There are plenty of dead downtowns in this nation, with huge office towers and nothing going on in the streets after sundown. Norfolk has created an active downtown which i believe is a direct result of the planning of the last 10 years, MacArthur center, as a primary example. Virginia Beach may not have a "true" downtown for 20 years, but it will have one someday, this i firmly believe. I wish nothing but success for all of downtown Norfolks projects and i hope for continued prosperity. At the same time i choose to defend the towncenter concept because i believe it is the right thing to do, the right direction to be heading in. Just like Norfolk, Virginia Beach will try and fail many times with many concepts before they get something to succeed. In the end however, i believe success in towncenter is almost a guarantee.

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On that end that is true but I think Norfolk in their minds thought doing residential developments in downtown could lose its style of being a downtown and turn into a suburban office park. Like we all know, high-rise residential prjoects were not likely in America's downtown's in the 70's and 80's. On the other hand they probably thought they were working on residential projects for downtown through the entire Ghent area (which to me doesn't count).

[krdarden]

On that end that is true but I think Norfolk in their minds thought doing residential developments in downtown could lose its style of being a downtown and turn into a suburban office park. Like we all know, high-rise residential prjoects were not likely in America's downtown's in the 70's and 80's. On the other hand they probably thought they were working on residential projects for downtown through the entire Ghent area (which to me doesn't count).

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I have always thought that if we had an arena large enough, we could lobby the ACC for a chance to host their prestigious ACC tournament by pitching it as the perfect location with no home court advantange for the teams participating. I am sure that we could put on a great show for the entire country and make a ton of money for all the cities of Hampton Roads! I think that it would have been something if we had an arena in place by 2007 so we could tie in this proposal with the upcoming 400th anniversity of our nation and if for nothing else, maybe they would feel the patriotic need to do something in spirit to show America that the ACC is all about the American dream....of course, we all know that the American dream is in reality to make them tons of $$$$ for the exposure that this event will bring with the media and public interest,

[lammius]

So buying back all that land and then developing on it or getting developers to work on it, waterside, Omni hotel (now known as the Sheraton), Dominion Tower, Sovran Bank Tower (now known as Bank of America), World Trade Center, Norfolk Southern Tower, BB&T tower, former Southtrust Bank tower and many other properties all existed before 1990 but not in 1980, a full 15+ years ago and they don't count as effort? Then in the 1990's we see more action from the city in the form of Harbor Park baseball stadium, Nauticus, MacArthur Center Mall and yada yada yada. From what I can remember, I learned Norfolk has been busting it's ass to re-develop downtown since the 1960's everything from buying properties and tearing down buildings all the way to convincing private investment today. There's one notable thing I learned from both of my economic classes and it is you cannot build a genuine downtown within a decade. It took decades upon decades to make it what it is now. One of my economic's professor's told the class one time, Town Center is still suburban sprawl based on it's lack of character and it's similarity to that new shopping plaza near your neighborhood. "Slapping a high-rise office tower, a high-rise apartment building, and a high-rise hotel along a grid of streets is hardly the business-centric and retail icon of a downtown."

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Ace, you're right on with your points but please please please be sure not to over use the apostrophe! Apostrophes show possession, not pluralism!

Continuing with the conversation, I agree with the economics professor that Town Center developments nationwide exude a sort of artificial urban environment. Vibrant and "attractive" urban neighborhoods develop organically.

As a resident of an old building I appreciate the grittiness and solidity of an old building rather than the "plastic" nature of a contemporary urban condo. I think this attribute gives Norfolk an advantage. New urbanism, however, does make the lifestyle of contemp. buildings more desirable and so they're not a bad thing either. I'd definitely rather have 500 people living in a 30 story condo or apartment building than over a 20-acre single family vinyl village.

[wrldcoupe4]

So how are sports in Norfolk

[rusthebuss]

So how are sports in Norfolk

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What do you mean by that?

[Seven Cities]

The Norfolk Admirals hockey team are in the midst of going to the AHL playoffs. The Norfolk Tides baseball team's season opener is on Thursday in Pennsylvania.

[lammius]

The Norfolk Admirals hockey team are in the midst of going to the AHL playoffs.  The Norfolk Tides baseball team's season opener is on Thursday in Pennsylvania.

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How's the soccer team in Va Beach doing and is the arena football team still around?

[wrldcoupe4]

How's the soccer team in Va Beach doing and is the arena football team still around?

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There was an arena football team in va. beach?