sports in norfolk

[rusthebuss]

Baseball wants them there so they will stay one way or another! I wish though. I'm dreaming now about watching the Mets in Norfolk.

[johnhowell]

Population wise we have every reason to be in the race for the Marlins.

As of 2004 Norfolk had a metropolitan population of 1,644,250 and Charlotte's metro pop. was 1,474,734.

Here are some 2003 comparisons:

Norfolk Metro Pop: 2003: 1,637,251. 3.86% growth since 2000

Richmond Metro Pop: 2003: 1,130,000

Indianapolis Metro Pop: 2003: 1,595,377. 4.61% growth since 2000

Kansas City Metro Pop: 2003: 1,904,908. 3.75% growth since 2000

Milwaukee Metro Pop: 2003: 1,514,313

San Antonio Metro Pop: 2003: 1,741,711

Census.gov didn't release these figures but they did release the population of the counties/cities and the city/counties that make up a metro.

Since we're an untapped market major league speaking we should be in this race. But people say we lack the corporate presence.

[rusthebuss]

I think the corporate support is why we are not in the running right now. I guess the last owners group gave up too! I think I'm on the verge on giving up while I'm at it.

[urbanlife]

Chances are slim for Norfolk. I am thinking Portland might be the top contender for MLB right now. We have a good size market with little competition. Plus it helps that the state has already okayed the money for a stadium during the whole Expos thing. Unlike the Expos, the Marlins don't need a new owner, which would make for an easy transition for my city.

I personally think NBA would be a great fit for Norfolk, they should stick with going for that.

[rusthebuss]

Chances are slim for Norfolk. I am thinking Portland might be the top contender for MLB right now. We have a good size market with little competition. Plus it helps that the state has already okayed the money for a stadium during the whole Expos thing. Unlike the Expos, the Marlins don't need a new owner, which would make for an easy transition for my city.

I personally think NBA would be a great fit for Norfolk, they should stick with going for that.

I think Charlotte has a better chance than Portland, plus they are going to want to keep it on the east coast.

The state extended our stadium package too!

[urbanlife]

yeah I think if the Marlins move it will probably be a fight between Portland and Charlotte.

Good to hear Virginia is still for building a stadium in Virginia. I really think NBA would fit the city nicely. I wonder if any NBA teams are thinking of moving or if there is an expansion down the line.

[Sundodger]

I think Charlotte has a better chance than Portland, plus they are going to want to keep it on the east coast.

I don't see it that way. Portland is a less saturated sports market than Charlotte. Also the westcoast needs one more team for balance. Plus Portland is way ahead of the game with ballpark financing and working with MLB.

[rusthebuss]

I don't see it that way. Portland is a less saturated sports market than Charlotte. Also the westcoast needs one more team for balance. Plus Portland is way ahead of the game with ballpark financing and working with MLB.

The only reason i see this is I would imagine that they will want to keep it on the east coast just like the expos. But I guess we will see. I don't care where it goes unless it comes here! I REALLY WANT A MAJOR LEAGUE TEAM IN NORFOLK!

[Sundodger]

^ The Expos stayed on the east coast because DC was by far the best open market for MLB. It had nothing to do with east vs. west.

Edited December 2, 2005 by Sundodger

[rusthebuss]

^ The Expos stayed on the east coast because DC was by far the best open market for MLB. It had nothing to do with east vs. west.

Actually the commisoner said it was in the best interest that the team stay on the east coast.

I followed it closely cause it seemed like we actually had a chance to nab them but of course that failed.

[hoobo]

Redskins Fan Fest

VB officials negotiated a 3-year deal to hold the Skins fan fest at the Beach rather than in NoVa as previously planned. They're even advertising it at FedEx. Although the main objective is to get a big draw for the new convention center and boost tourism in the early season, larger than expected turn-out might do for HR what the Hornets are doing for OKC. Yes, it isn't an actually game, but if a ton of people show up just for a fan fest wouldn't that make pro-sport commissioners wonder what would happen if HR actually had a team?

[mistermetaj]

Actually the commisoner said it was in the best interest that the team stay on the east coast.

I followed it closely cause it seemed like we actually had a chance to nab them but of course that failed.

The marlins are in the NL East, so they are going to want to keep them on the east coast. If they didnt do that, there would be a big push to restructure divisons and they dont want to do that. That is the main reason the expos didnt go west as well.

[Sundodger]

That is the main reason the expos didnt go west as well.

No, that isn't true. They moved to D.C. because it was by far the best market to relocate to.

All they have to do if the Marlins move to Portland is move the Pirates to the East, Rockies to the Central, & Marlins to the West. Another thing they could do is switch the Marlins to the AL and another team to the NL to fix the AL West's geographic inbalance and create a regional rivalry with Seattle.

Edited December 2, 2005 by Sundodger

[rusthebuss]

The marlins are in the NL East, so they are going to want to keep them on the east coast. If they didnt do that, there would be a big push to restructure divisons and they dont want to do that. That is the main reason the expos didnt go west as well.

That was my point

[hoobo]

No, that isn't true. They moved to D.C. because it was by far the best market to relocate to.

All they have to do if the Marlins move to Portland is move the Pirates to the East, Rockies to the Central, & Marlins to the West. Another thing they could do is switch the Marlins to the AL and another team to the NL to fix the AL West's geographic inbalance and create a regional rivalry with Seattle.

MLB is not in the mood to realign. The business is doing very well right now so they have no desire to mess with the current model. In addition, placing an AL team in Portland will be a lot more difficult than placing a NL team. Seattle has already whined that they have market rights to Portland. (Baseball says they don't.) Seattle would lose fans who would drive up or turn on the TV to watch the Mariners play the Angels, A's, Yanks, or BoSox (since the two teams would schedule the same teams) if the Marlins are placed as an AL team.

This is the same reason why Norfolk has no shot in landing the Marlins. That door was closed by the Nationals. If you think Peter Angelos whined when Selig wanted to move the Expos to DC, then you don't want to see how he will act if Loria seriously considers Norfolk. And I haven't even mentioned Selig and his, oops, I mean MLB's Nationals.

MLB is too territorial to put in team in Norfolk. The NFL is too much of a destination sport to consider Norfolk when there're already DC, Baltimore, and Charlotte. All that are left are NBA and NHL. With the new labor agreement, the NHL might work. Why do Atlanta, Columbus, Miami, and Nashville have teams? The NBA is the better choice since HR produces a lot of pro stars and Stern doesn't get involved in the moving of teams (see New Orleans).

[johnhowell]

Have some faith people. Norfolk has every right to be in a race for MLB. The main problem is that everyone thinks this region can't support a ML team. Have some confidence. We're a bigger market than Milwaukee. I know that's not saying much, but Norfolk can support a MLB team.

Edited December 3, 2005 by johnhowell

[Sundodger]

MLB is not in the mood to realign. The business is doing very well right now so they have no desire to mess with the current model.

A minor realignment is no big deal anymore after all the changes the last 11 years. It isn't an issue that will affect a team's relocation.

In addition, placing an AL team in Portland will be a lot more difficult than placing a NL team. Seattle has already whined that they have market rights to Portland. (Baseball says they don't.) Seattle would lose fans who would drive up or turn on the TV to watch the Mariners play the Angels, A's, Yanks, or BoSox (since the two teams would schedule the same teams) if the Marlins are placed as an AL team.

You can say the samething about Charlotte - Atlanta and Norfolk - DC. The reality is that the two cities are too far apart for other franchises to do anything about them. DC-Balt. situation was different as DC fell within MLB's defined radius of another franchise. Portland, Charlotte, & Norfolk don't have this to worry about other franchises as they fall out of the defined radius, E. Rutherford, NJ however does not and will have to work a deal with the NY clubs if the Marlins are to move there.

[hoobo]

A minor realignment is no big deal anymore after all the changes the last 11 years. It isn't an issue that will affect a team's relocation.

That's my point. Is MLB, which is the most uptight of all major sports, willing to realign again, after all the changes instituted over the past decade? Considering the steroid scandal how would the public react to these changes?

You can say the samething about Charlotte - Atlanta and Norfolk - DC. The reality is that the two cities are too far apart for other franchises to do anything about them. DC-Balt. situation was different as DC fell within MLB's defined radius of another franchise. Portland, Charlotte, & Norfolk don't have this to worry about other franchises as they fall out of the defined radius, E. Rutherford, NJ however does not and will have to work a deal with the NY clubs if the Marlins are to move there.

Seattle broadcasts in Portland. DC doesn't broadcast in Norfolk. I'm not sure about Atlanta in Charlotte. I do know that Atlanta claims much, if not all of South Carolina as its territory. Charlotte's metro area goes into SC. How would that work?

Selig wants to place a team in Monterrey, Mexico. Besides inter-league play and financial stability, Selig wants international expansion (to Latin American markets) to be his lasting legacy. Monterrey was a dark-horse for the Spos. Although currently unmentioned, I feel they are a front runner for the Marlins if they leave South Florida. This would cause minor realignment with the Pirates moving to the NL East and Marlins to the NL Central as opposed to the more intensive realignment if the Marlins moved to Vegas or Portland. In the end, though, I believe that the Marlins will build a new stadium next to Joe Robbie/Pro Player/Dolphins Stadium in Ft. Lauderdale. Remember, only Miami-Dade decided to drop the stadium deal not Broward or Palm Beach counties.

Edited December 4, 2005 by hoobo

[urbanlife]

so pretty much don't expect them to be moving, until they say they will be moving.

[Sundodger]

That's my point. Is MLB, which is the most uptight of all major sports, willing to realign again, after all the changes instituted over the past decade? Considering the steroid scandal how would the public react to these changes?

Are you serious? Realigning a few teams is nothing close to the other changes made recently. If you look at recent precedence, MLB is quite comfortable with it currently. Hence interleague play, wildcard, extra divisions, league affiliation changes, etc.

Seattle broadcasts in Portland. DC doesn't broadcast in Norfolk. I'm not sure about Atlanta in Charlotte. I do know that Atlanta claims much, if not all of South Carolina as its territory. Charlotte's metro area goes into SC. How would that work?

Seattle only broadcasts in Portland because FSN carries the games there. They are not the same t.v. market. Does Charlotte have TBS or Turner South? How about Norfolk?

Selig wants to place a team in Monterrey, Mexico.

The economics doesn't work presently for that dream to be realized.

This would cause minor realignment...

Then why say the nonsense above if you really believe MLB is open to more change?

with the Pirates moving to the NL East and Marlins to the NL Central as opposed to the more intensive realignment if the Marlins moved to Vegas or Portland.

How is that less intensive then your silly Mexico scenario? The Pirates would fit in fine with the Phillies (intrastate rivalry anyone?), Senators (D.C. is closer to Pitt than their closest NL Cent. opponent), and Mets. The Rockies would do fine in the NL Central since they are already out of place in the West. In fact the move to Portland helps balance things.

In the end, though, I believe that the Marlins will build a new stadium next to Joe Robbie/Pro Player/Dolphins Stadium in Ft. Lauderdale.

Never happen, especially since Joe Robbie isn't even in the same county as Ft. Lauderdale. I too believe the Marlins stay but it will be a downtown ballpark if they stay. If they are gone, Portland is by far the best relocation option currently.

Edited December 5, 2005 by Sundodger

[hoobo]

The Marlins currently play in Joe Robbie/Pro Player/Dolphins. That's why they are the Florida Marlins. Like the Angels did (and later undid), the Marlins proposed to change their name to Miami if that city paid for a new stadium. Miami now seems intent on rebuilding the Orange Bowl, which needs rebuilding. That would bring the Orange Bowl back to its namesake and likely attract a Super Bowl away from the Dolphins Stadium.

FSN is a regional network unlike TBS. I can watch Braves and Cubs games here in California because I receive TBS and WGN, respectively. That means nothing. I can't receive Mariners games because I don't have FSN-NW. We get FSNW and FSNW2. Norfolk gets Comcast Sports Network so they can see DC and Baltimore teams. Charlotte gets TBS South. If Portland gets a team, the Mariners contract with FSN will go down in value because they lose a television market. The Mariners will fight a move. Angelos fought the Expos move because of the same thing: lose of television market leading to lose of TV rights revenue. Selig was hellbent on placing a team in DC because its DC. Portland is no DC.

The only team that switched leagues was the Brewers. I'll let you figure out who owns the Brewers.

As for best relocation options, in order they would be: Norfolk (few high-priced distractions but weak business base), Vegas (skyrocketing population & celebrities but high cost of living with depressed wages and many distractions), Monterrey (richest city in Mexico with large number of millionaires but citizens more interested in football with 1000 Cowboys season ticket holders), Portland (largest city with only one pro team but little interest in baseball and somewhat weak economy), and Charlotte (strong business base but small population and two pro teams). The A's or the Twins are the teams that Portland will likely land if it lands one.

Yeah urbanlife, I don't expect them to move until Loria is actually scouting stadium sites in other cities besides art houses in Paris.

Edited December 5, 2005 by hoobo

[Sundodger]

The Marlins currently play in Joe Robbie/Pro Player/Dolphins. That's why they are the Florida Marlins.

Who here doesn't know this? I was just telling you in the last thread the stadium isn't in Ft Lauderdale nor even in the same county as Ft. Lauderdale, that's all.

FSN is a regional network unlike TBS.

FSN = Turner South.

Charlotte gets TBS South. If Portland gets a team, the Mariners contract with FSN will go down in value because they lose a television market. The Mariners will fight a move.

There is nothing they can do about it! Do you know MLB's rules? Portland does not fall within Seattle's radius; there is nothing they can do but beotch and whine. D.C. was another story as it is 35 miles from Baltimore.

Portland is no DC.

Exactly, it doesn't fall within a current team's territory. D.C., San Jose, and N. NJ have these issues; Portland, Norfolk, and Charlotte do not. Understand?

As for best relocation options, in order they would be: Norfolk (few high-priced distractions but weak business base), Vegas (skyrocketing population & celebrities but high cost of living with depressed wages and many distractions), Monterrey (richest city in Mexico with large number of millionaires but citizens more interested in football with 1000 Cowboys season ticket holders), Portland (largest city with only one pro team but little interest in baseball and somewhat weak economy), and Charlotte (strong business base but small population and two pro teams).

Nope. Have you looked at the numbers? Portland is by far the best potential open market for MLB by the numbers. Las Vegas would be a mistake and Monterrey pencils out like Wichita, KS. Norfolk pencils out but the NBA or NFL would be a better fit as MLB is by far the most expensive and difficult pro sport to maintain.

Also, why do you have to make stuff up? Portland has a lot of interest in baseball and their economy is far from weak. Also Las Vegas does not have a high cost of living, affordability is driving her growth!

[hoobo]

TBS South is not a sports network like FSN/Comcast. It is available in southeastern states unlike FSN-NW which is only in Washington and Oregon. I have stated several times that Portland is not in Seattle's official territory, but MLB will have to pay the Mariners like they paid the Orioles to take away TV market. Vegas, Norfolk, and Charlotte are not claimed by any team's TV market.

Attendance for the AAA Portland Beavers has dropped from 6800 in 2002 to about 5300 in 2004 and 2005. PGE Park has a capacity of 23,000 and was renovated in 2001. The Beavers are bankrupt and owned by the PCL.

Norfolk has averaged over 7000 for Tides games over the past several seasons. Although I don't consider minor league attendance as a true indicator of pro team viability, Portland's dying interest is not good. At least Vegas has an excuse: horrible stadium with horrible summer heat.

As for Vegas, they have a per cap income that is $1000 lower than HR yet their home prices are $100,000 higher.

Portland's economy was cited as one of the reasons why they fell from the Expos race. The economics behind the stadium deal hinged on tax revenues that were not increasing as predicted.

Norfolk is the best relocation option for the Marlins. Portland is the best option for the A's or Twins. Vegas is the best option for the NBA. Charlotte needs more people.

[rusthebuss]

Well Bob Johnson is trying to tie Norfolk with Charlotte and that is why he was pushing for the expos to move to Norfolk cause it would have increased his cable network revenue.

[urbanfan]

Who here doesn't know this? I was just telling you in the last thread the stadium isn't in Ft Lauderdale nor even in the same county as Ft. Lauderdale, that's all.

Yes, Pro player stadium has a miami address. However, I would have to agree that Pro Player is closer to Ft. Lauderdale and Hollywood area than Miami. Heck, it's 14 miles from the stadium to downtown Miami. I can see why he considers it to be Ft. Lauderdale.