sports in norfolk

[Padman]

I used to attend a few A's games, but that stadium has the most distant foul lines. You couldn't see anything. They used to call it the Oakland Mausoleum.

[scm]

So although I still don't believe that pro sports have a negative effect, I no longer believe they have a positive impact either.

Hoobo, I'm so glad you have come to your senses and now see it my way (huge grin!) -- Smart aleck comment aside, I think you are about right. Probably the self esteem translating to lower salaries has a grain of truth in it -- just doesn't work here on many levels -- too much gov't salaries here, which won't change a nickel. Flip side of that is the small tax base to draw on to grant the subsidies a pro arena will always demand. Third is the fragmented government -- the cities that make sense to place it in, don't have the tax bases to make it work, and there is no county gov't to fund it either.

We are making our plans to become ODU football donors (well, only big enough to get preferred tailgating parking places!), even though neither of us went to ODU, nor did any of our kids. ODU football can help fill the live football jones -- and nothing beats college football tailgating.

Edited August 18, 2007 by scm

[Glassoul]

Forget about hockey: the NHL has made it clear they won't put two teams in small markets (Norfolk and Raleigh) only 150 miles apart.

The next NHL team to move is going to be the Nashville Predators. They couldn't even sellout for the playoffs games and have averaged around 10-11k for the regular season. However, there is a lot of work being done to move them to Hamilton, Ontario. Anyway, I've made my beliefs known about local governments giving subsidies to professional sports teams.

Edited August 17, 2007 by Glassoul

[br0guy]

There is going to be an ODU kickoff countdown tailgate party on October 13, 2007 from 2pm-6pm at Towne Point Park. Coach Wilder and staff will be there and they will unveil the new football uniforms.

[br0guy]

Foreman Field now:

[leftyres]

why can't hampton roads get a professional sports team?

[rusthebuss]

There are multiple reasons we don't have a team, one i think the military really doesn't want to have that type of thing around here, next corporate sponsorship is not here. People don't want to pay the taxes here for the facilities. State is really unwilling to help this region.

[cpeakesqr]

I believe there is already a thread around here somewhere, I know vdogg was trying to clean up the boards...

[hoobo]

The more I see how many pro teams treat their hometowns: how they extort them for new facilities yet are making tens of millions through revenue sharing, the less I care to see HR get one. The pride, exposure, and possible tourism one would bring does not merit the headaches that will come in 15 years when they want a new facility and Norfolk or the state is not done paying off the obligations on the initial facility. At this point, I'd rather see ODU turn into a major college team. Maybe get to the point of joining the Big East between 2015 - 2020 at least for football. Being in the football hotbed of HR, ODU should be able to take some of the talent that Tech (why doesn't my alma mater UVa recruit hard there) and other major schools scoop up as well as a lot of the D-1A FPD talent. Since ODU isn't going to relocate, then they can't hold the area hostage. Also, they can get alumni and students to fund major portions of stadium construction. That is HR's best option.

Edited December 17, 2007 by hoobo

[andyfried]

I really believe Hampton Roads would have a sports team if we had a large enough venue already in place,and all of the cities and counties in this region should help pay for it.Regionalism is the key

[hoobo]

I really believe Hampton Roads would have a sports team if we had a large enough venue already in place,and all of the cities and counties in this region should help pay for it.Regionalism is the key

Why should VB, Hampton, etc. pay for something that Norfolk businesses directly benefit from and which may hurt said cities own businesses? And why should Norfolk share the revenues with other cities when it has to provide the infrastructure (i.e. roads, water, sewer, etc.) for the venue? The only way it could have happened is if there was a regional project package like what OKC did, where the participating localities pool their bond issuing abilities together and each locality gets something from the deal: an arena, a convention center, a central library, a theater, etc. But the time for that is too late since everyone has what they want for the time being. Also, an arena now costs between $200 and $300 million. I think Norfolk would rather use its bond obligation limit for other things like a courthouse, a central library, and community centers. Can't wait for scm to reem me for changing my position.

Edited December 17, 2007 by hoobo

[andyfried]

I think regionalism makes any region more liveable.It's time for Hampton Roads to pool it's resources together.

[Case]

I think regionalism makes any region more liveable.It's time for Hampton Roads to pool it's resources together.

Adding a pro sports is not a fix all, but It would certainly help market this region to the rest of the country...Imagine national news or ESPN commentators referring to HR or Tidewater region as one unit. I would love to be able to explain to people in other regions where I live in a two word phase. It truly hurts us economically that half the country doesn't know that Va Beach and Norfolk are next to each other. Something is seriously wrong when you have to reference Richmond when coming from a metro of 1.5 mil+

Edited December 18, 2007 by Case

[VAGATOR]

I really believe Hampton Roads would have a sports team if we had a large enough venue already in place,and all of the cities and counties in this region should help pay for it.Regionalism is the key

Agree. It is truly embarrassing that a region of 1.7 doesn't have a decent modern arena. Could you image how much cheaper it would have been to build an arena 10-15 years ago then it is now? It's just about missing professional sports. You all miss major shows(Just look at the shows at the new UVA arena), NCAA events and conventions.

[rusthebuss]

Man I just read where OKC just got the supersonics. They have the same metro size as Richmond. I know they wanted to keep the team on the west coast. Man what is it with no one wanting to put a pro sports team here. AHHHHHHHHHH! Drives me nuts dude

[spiker3]

Man I just read where OKC just got the supersonics. They have the same metro size as Richmond. I know they wanted to keep the team on the west coast. Man what is it with no one wanting to put a pro sports team here. AHHHHHHHHHH! Drives me nuts dude

I'm with you, but as long as our primary arena is over two decades old (referencing the ABA All-Star game we hosted in the 70s) there's zero chance of ever scoring a team. And our chances have worsened in the last two years with the Tides and Admirals signing team affiliations with basement dwelling squads, I'm a supporter of local sports and have yet to see the 'new' Tides or 'new' Admirals. When we have winners (like we had for years with the Mets, ECHL and Blackhawks) there was firm support. Now we're left with scrubs and support has dwindled, which makes it far more difficult for us to lure anyone. I'm resigned to never seeing a sports team here in my lifetime, unfortunatel.

[URBbum]

A huge issue is this area doesn't have longstanding roots. I don't want to say all, but most of the population came from somewhere else and I'd take a strong bet that if the got a MLB team, for example, the tickets would sell when the Yanks, BoSox, and local boys come to town. Fans would go root for teams that they grew up with making it a home away from home field for most of the competition.

I don't know if a regional hotel tax is needed (common way for revenue of developed venue) like andyfried referenced (I could be wrong), but I think if we're just talking about regional support- as a fan base- as long as there is highway access people will travel from Roanoke, Williamsburg, etc. because the trip is a lot easier than DC or Baltimore.

Do I personally think a professional team is coming? Nope.

[VAGATOR]

This area need a new arena bad. Most Major D-1 colleges have nicer arenas than Scope and Hampton Coliseum, and that includes ODU. It's not only a professional team we maybe missing out on, we also miss out on major concerts(Look what the new arena has done for UVA) NCAA events, i.e. NCAA men's tournament, ect. Sadly, I don't see one coming anytime soon, and its just going to get more expensive.

[rusthebuss]

This area need a new arena bad. Most Major D-1 colleges have nicer arenas than Scope and Hampton Coliseum, and that includes ODU. It's not only a professional team we maybe missing out on, we also miss out on major concerts(Look what the new arena has done for UVA) NCAA events, i.e. NCAA men's tournament, ect. Sadly, I don't see one coming anytime soon, and its just going to get more expensive.

I completely agree but the city has prioritized important things such as the courthouse and other things. They have stayed withing their budgets. So I'm proud of the city on that part but like you said its just going to get more expensive. We could hold the final four one day if they had a really nice arena.

[VAGATOR]

I completely agree but the city has prioritized important things such as the courthouse and other things. They have stayed withing their budgets. So I'm proud of the city on that part but like you said its just going to get more expensive. We could hold the final four one day if they had a really nice arena.

I agree, Norfolk is financially strapped for years, especially since they have to build that courthouse pretty much under legal order. The only hope for the near future is the Beach, and that's extremely doubtful.

[rusthebuss]

I think the next plan will include the arena

[deeznatz]

Man I just read where OKC just got the supersonics. They have the same metro size as Richmond. I know they wanted to keep the team on the west coast. Man what is it with no one wanting to put a pro sports team here. AHHHHHHHHHH! Drives me nuts dude

I really feel eveyone's pain on this issue, but look around, it is a VIRGINIA problem not just a Hampton Roads issue. Name one other state with the strong economy, large population, etc. that does not have a major sporting venue(not counting college facilities such as JPJ in cville b/c they are financed by other means)??

We now are faced with cities leapfroigging Riochmond and Hampton Roads that have no business doing so.....Raleigh....Charlotte.....Nashville....and now Oklamhoma City. NOw, Im not saying that haveing a new arena and sports team validates a city, and I woiuldn't trade any of what RVA or HR have for Charlotte, Nashville, etc. Even Atlanta. I was in Cahrlotte recently and the place looks like an overgrown Reston Town Centre....they call that a city? There was an open, epty grasss field nexto to the stadium and suburban style condos/townhomes on the edge of their "downtown." It's laughable, i wouldn't live in that cookie cutter fake city if my life depended on it.

Anyhow, back to the topic at hand.....we have no major sports venues or teams, and we all sit here surfing the web likes nerds at the hope that they will build a 30 story tower in one of our downtowns, meanwhile Nashville is buidling 60 story towers and has two pro teams. The problem is our governmental system, and the division between city and county, or in the case of HR just a bunch of independent cities. Building a 38 story tower at a suburban intersection, when you have a treu urban core on the verge of blowing up just a few miles away? Ridiculous! (and no offense to VA Beach, great plac and all but NFK is the urabn heart of the region and shoulod take priority, imo....otherwise you end up with what we have....small urban centers.).

Down there it seems liek a tug of war between VABeach and NFK. Up here we have freakin Chesterfield wanting to move the Braves away from downton b/c of traffic and "crime." Hey, if there is a place in Richmond with as much traffic as the 12 lane abominations in that county (Hull and Midlo) i's sure like to seem them! These suburban areas here have such an incredible lack of vision and knowledge of what this place could be like, it is astounding. Amazing....and a shame.

So, that is why we are severely underachieving in all things urban and big in this fair Commonwealth. however, due to the history and urban fabric of our towns....I STILL think the last laugh will be ours....someday. Someday people will start to see what great place Richmond is, with its neighborhoods and hills and river. I couldn't believe the level of activity in downtown NFK when i visited a few weeks ago....people were living there...it was great! Downtown NFK has soooo much potential it is scary. Same with Richmond.

That being said...and its a rant so I apologize in advance, I think VA Beach should set their sights on an MLB team(long range), but more immediately on an MLS team. I say that for several reasons, the area is rich on soccer tradition and it is very popullar, it is considered "major leagu," tho not at the level of the big four sports, and it kind of gets the foot in the door, so to speak. Stadium construction would be cheaper, but still would provide another source of entertainment and excitement to lure people downtown. Plus, MLS does attract some crowds...Ill bet you could average close to 20k for games down there...that is pretty big time.

What our cities ned is the economic boom that Raleigh/Charlotte/ATL are having/have had. that is the key...if we were to get on track and head down that path...our towns would boom, and it would be even better b/c we have the urban fabric to make a real, vibrant, downtown with actual character....not some approximation of a city.

[vdogg]

If you're setting your hopes on Va. Beach you're bound to be disappointed. They literally had to be overridden by the state on the light rail issue a few days ago just to get the ball rolling. Getting pro-sports would require them to stick their neck out and risk political capital and it is unlikely they will do so.

[spiker3]

If you're setting your hopes on Va. Beach you're bound to be disappointed. They literally had to be overridden by the state on the light rail issue a few days ago just to get the ball rolling. Getting pro-sports would require them to stick their neck out and risk political capital and it is unlikely they will do so.

Also, Virginia Beach City Council is not comfortable paying for something that will benefit the area, not just VB residents. Norfolk is the only city with any opportunity and city council make-up to support major league sports, any franchise, any league. Fraim might be able to get VB on board, but VB would never head a move for a major league franchise. It's Norfolk or nothing and that's the way it will be for the foreseeable future.

[scm]

What our cities ned is the economic boom that Raleigh/Charlotte/ATL are having/have had. that is the key...if we were to get on track and head down that path...our towns would boom, and it would be even better b/c we have the urban fabric to make a real, vibrant, downtown with actual character....not some approximation of a city.

I just don't see how any city in VA generates the "economic boom that Raleigh/Charlotte/ATL are having/have had", because of a complete absence of leadership. Look at the state level -- the Governor, whatever your political stripe, completely failed in accomplishing anything during the recent special session -- called it, with no plan, no way to negotiate to the middle. Failed leader. Mayor Fraim is demonstrating a similar lack of leadership over one of the potentially most important long term issues to face Norfolk -- what to do about indigent health care. Not working with DePaul hospital to find a way they can meet their mission of Catholic health care, while staying financially viable. Paying city money to create the illusion of "astroturf" roots citizen groups -- shameful. Leadership would mean finding a solution where everyone gives up something. Nope. Mayor Meyera has outlived her usefulness -- no vision of any type from the city of VB. So to expect political leaders to be the catalyst is like expecting a pig to fly. They can't fix the things they have a current responsibility for, so why expect them to "fix" the future?

No hope from the business sector in the state, either, because there is a similarlly depressing lack of vision. Bottom line is that VA is too close to DC, in more ways than one. (Like they say about Mexico, so close to the US, so far from God). Our largest businesses look nothing like the businesses that have created the economic booms in NC, GA, and TN. We have seven businesses in the Fortune 200, more than NC or TN and equal to GA. Problem is the kind of businesses they are -- three of the seven are directly tied to the Federal gov't (Freddie Mac, General Dynamics, and CSC). None of the seven are in the top five firms, in a consumer driven industry. Contrast to GA -- five of their seven are (Home Depot, UPS, Coke, Delta, and AFLAC). Look at Hampton Roads -- largest non-governmental employer here is a defense contractor -- NG Newport News shipyard. The reason all of this is important, is that consumer driven businesses spend dollars on sports sponsorships, buy stadium naming rights, pay for season tickets for customers. Major league teams can't survive financially without those money streams. Federal contractors, like GD and CSC, have no interest in paying for naming rights -- they can't even buy tickets to games for their customers, so those revenue streams don't exist in the current VA businesses.

That's the faustian bargain VA has made -- trade the stability of those federal dollars, for the downsides that come with it. The absence of sports teams is one. The lack of a creative community (the work of Richard Florida is the example) is the other. I understand that there is a vibrant creative community in DC, but most of that is tied to the law firms and universities, not to defense contractors, or quasi-governmental entities like Freddie Mac. Those businesses don't attract creative people, on large enough scales. The frustration that Tel feels is a palpable example of how the business community here, and across the state on a larger scale, is made up of firms that have no requirement for creative people, and therefore, there is no creative class. They similarly have no interest in supporting sports teams, because it isn't in their business model. Couple that with a sclerotic political leadership class, and you have a recipe for the maintenance of the status quo -- don't have leading edge businesses, and you don't have the employment pool with the kind of people you need to create them.

You guys can complain all you want -- I see sort of a death spiral. Look at all of the creative young people here, who grew up in HR, and had to leave to find work they valued. The VA business model reinforces a business community that will never have interest in providing the revenue streams that will make major league sports financially viable. I don't see anything on the five to ten year horizon that will be the catalyst of the needed change. Someone prove me wrong, please.

(VDogg, I realize this is border line , so move it if you want. But it is the potential revenue problems that are the cause of the lack of sports teams, not a lack of facilities)