sports in norfolk

[Achilles]

Why is that? Explain position!!

Well, personally, I would love to have pro sports teams here. I was just trying to find some kind of middle ground between the posters here who are really passionate about having a team here, the posters who kind of want a team here, and the ones who think pro sports teams are overrated, and we just need ODU. I'm actually trying to form some kind of group sometime in the near future that would be dedicated to bringing pro sports to Hampton Roads in hopes that it may, someday, succeed. After all, forming a group dedicated to acquiring an NFL team played a major role in how Jacksonville got the Jaguars. By forming a group called Touchdown! Jacksonville and showing they were very dedicated to getting an NFL team, Jacksonville prevailed against all odds and beat out Baltimore and St. Louis, among others, to acquire the Jaguars.

My opinion on having a pro sports teams is stated in the post you quoted. To add to that post, though, if we get a team, I believe the best course of action would be to name them the "Virginia ______" (like many people have said before) and have an agreement between all of the Hampton Roads cities and counties (or, at least, the seven cities) that any money collected to support the team(s) would be taken from all of them rather than just the city that contains the team(s) home stadium (although, I believe the city that has the stadium should probably pay slightly more money than the others, but idk about that). I'm not sure if this makes any sense to anyone, but I'm just trying to form a good plan so that, in case we get a chance to acquire a team, arguments between the cities and counties doesn't make the deal fall through.

Also, I think we were very close to having the Expos. However, Norfolk's plan to house them temporarily in an expanded Harbor Park was inadequate. D.C. (being the nation's capital and a very large, well-known city) has a lot of pull and was easily able to get the Expos. Plus, D.C. already had RFK Stadium for the Expos, which was a ready-made pro sports stadium. If Norfolk had a nice stadium that could house up to 40,000-50,000 people, I think they would have had a better chance at getting the Expos. Crazy as it may seem, I think we should just go ahead and build a nice, high-capacity stadium or arena somewhere in a convienient location in Hampton Roads in hopes of attracting a pro team. It would provide a ready-made home for a new team (most likely a relocated one since expansion of most pro sports leagues is pretty much out of the question right now), so the team could continue playing in the next season, and it would show our dedication to acquiring a pro team.

The obvious problem with building a stadium/arena without even having a team yet is the inevitable public outcry and the idea that such a stadium/arena would be a complete waste of taxpayer money, especially if it fails to attract any teams at all within 3-5 years. But it worked for Tampa Bay when they built Tropicana Field and attracted the Devil Rays (or Rays as they're now called). And it worked for Oklahoma City, who built the Ford Center and recently attracted the Oklahoma City Thunder (partially due to Hurricane Katrina forcing the Hornets to play there for a couple seasons, though). My thoughts on this could be very flawed, though. I hope no one thinks I'm dumb for proposing such a radical idea.

[varider]

Achilles, reading your post, I thought I was reading something I'd written. That's exactly how I feel. I would definately be part of your group.. If we got a team I'd have season tickets, too.

Say we got a group together, started seeing support from all of Hampton Roads, got thousands of people together (when we were in the running for a team), some put deposits down for season tickets, some bought single game tickets, some bought jerseys, car stickers, hats, etc. I could really see a baseballl stadium (50,000) at Harbor Park. And I could see it filled.

edit: actually, I think we could go with 40,000 seats,the Phillies kinda new stadium seats 43,000 and they are an established, world series champion team

Edited October 12, 2009 by varider

[usermel]

You guys are right. We must take a chance locally to get a team!!! L.G.N.M

[brikkman]

Well, personally, I would love to have pro sports teams here. I was just trying to find some kind of middle ground between the posters here who are really passionate about having a team here, the posters who kind of want a team here, and the ones who think pro sports teams are overrated, and we just need ODU. I'm actually trying to form some kind of group sometime in the near future that would be dedicated to bringing pro sports to Hampton Roads in hopes that it may, someday, succeed. After all, forming a group dedicated to acquiring an NFL team played a major role in how Jacksonville got the Jaguars. By forming a group called Touchdown! Jacksonville and showing they were very dedicated to getting an NFL team, Jacksonville prevailed against all odds and beat out Baltimore and St. Louis, among others, to acquire the Jaguars.

My opinion on having a pro sports teams is stated in the post you quoted. To add to that post, though, if we get a team, I believe the best course of action would be to name them the "Virginia ______" (like many people have said before) and have an agreement between all of the Hampton Roads cities and counties (or, at least, the seven cities) that any money collected to support the team(s) would be taken from all of them rather than just the city that contains the team(s) home stadium (although, I believe the city that has the stadium should probably pay slightly more money than the others, but idk about that). I'm not sure if this makes any sense to anyone, but I'm just trying to form a good plan so that, in case we get a chance to acquire a team, arguments between the cities and counties doesn't make the deal fall through.

Also, I think we were very close to having the Expos. However, Norfolk's plan to house them temporarily in an expanded Harbor Park was inadequate. D.C. (being the nation's capital and a very large, well-known city) has a lot of pull and was easily able to get the Expos. Plus, D.C. already had RFK Stadium for the Expos, which was a ready-made pro sports stadium. If Norfolk had a nice stadium that could house up to 40,000-50,000 people, I think they would have had a better chance at getting the Expos. Crazy as it may seem, I think we should just go ahead and build a nice, high-capacity stadium or arena somewhere in a convienient location in Hampton Roads in hopes of attracting a pro team. It would provide a ready-made home for a new team (most likely a relocated one since expansion of most pro sports leagues is pretty much out of the question right now), so the team could continue playing in the next season, and it would show our dedication to acquiring a pro team.

The obvious problem with building a stadium/arena without even having a team yet is the inevitable public outcry and the idea that such a stadium/arena would be a complete waste of taxpayer money, especially if it fails to attract any teams at all within 3-5 years. But it worked for Tampa Bay when they built Tropicana Field and attracted the Devil Rays (or Rays as they're now called). And it worked for Oklahoma City, who built the Ford Center and recently attracted the Oklahoma City Thunder (partially due to Hurricane Katrina forcing the Hornets to play there for a couple seasons, though). My thoughts on this could be very flawed, though. I hope no one thinks I'm dumb for proposing such a radical idea.

What is so interesting about your statement regarding parsing out the revenue is that we have competion regarding acquring a team, but cities like VA, Chesapeake and portsmouth fight big city living!!!! What sense does that make exactly? Lets see, you do not want LRT because blah blah blah, but you want a professional sports team setting in suburia.

[varider]

Virgina Beach could be the best bet.. They are the only ones with a plan for an arena in the future. Norfolk hasn't shown any interest since they lost the Expos.

[varider]

I did a little reading on the group Touchdown! Jacksonville.Without the formation, Jacksonville probably would not have an NFL team. Something similar to that really needs to be formed.. The mayors of the seven cities, local developers, businesses, CEOs, etc. need to be active members. It can be done.. Anything is possible, right?

[rusthebuss]

Virgina Beach could be the best bet.. They are the only ones with a plan for an arena in the future. Norfolk hasn't shown any interest since they lost the Expos.

actually you are wrong, Norfolk has a couple spots that they want to build a arena at in the SPQuad.

they had to put it off to put the money aside for the new courthouse dt

[Achilles]

What is so interesting about your statement regarding parsing out the revenue is that we have competion regarding acquring a team, but cities like VA, Chesapeake and portsmouth fight big city living!!!! What sense does that make exactly? Lets see, you do not want LRT because blah blah blah, but you want a professional sports team setting in suburia.

Lol. Yeah, definitely. I don't understand that at all. Not every Hampton Roads city or county needs to be urban like Norfolk or VA Beach (because, personally, I don't believe all of Hampton Roads needs to be), but if they're not going to be urban, they should understand that the most populous and urban cities in the metro deserve the teams the most because the big cities have the $$$ and population to sustain them (unless it's football, where the stadium is best located outside the more urban parts of the metro; for an NFL team in Hampton Roads, Williamsburg, James City County, Isle of Wight, Smithfield, Chesapeake, and Suffolk come to mind).

I did a little reading on the group Touchdown! Jacksonville.Without the formation, Jacksonville probably would not have an NFL team. Something similar to that really needs to be formed.. The mayors of the seven cities, local developers, businesses, CEOs, etc. need to be active members. It can be done.. Anything is possible, right?

Agreed. Touchdown! Jacksonville didn't get a team right away, but with strong will and the help of some of the political types, it sure did eventually. My hopes are to do the same. By far, MLB would be my favorite sports team to acquire since it would be rather difficult to peel away the Redskins' expansive fan base despite how bad they are. But who knows? I'll be happy to take anything higher than minor league teams.

actually you are wrong, Norfolk has a couple spots that they want to build a arena at in the SPQuad.

they had to put it off to put the money aside for the new courthouse dt

Really? By SPQuad, you mean Saint Paul's Quadrant, right? I hope they continue to pursue this plan once they have the funds for it again. If it's a baseball or football stadium, it should have 40,000 seats or more (By comparison Dick Price Stadium holds up to 30,000 people, Foreman Field holds a little less than 20,000 people, and Harbor Park barely holds 12,000 people). If it's a basketball or hockey arena, it should have 18-20,000 seats. (By comparison, the Hampton Coliseum and the Norfolk Scope hold little over 8,000 people for basketball and hockey games). We cannot expect any teams to relocate here until we have stadiums/arenas large enough to accommodate them.

Also, I hope VA Beach builds that stadium I saw in the plans they have for Pembroke. It looked pretty high-end compared to the stadiums we have around here. Hopefully, no one intervenes and strikes it down.

What I find funniest of all out of all of this is that we're probably gonna be the only metro in the nation with a light rail line stopping at a minor league stadium. Lol. But maybe The Tide will help change that.

[urbanlife]

What I find funniest of all out of all of this is that we're probably gonna be the only metro in the nation with a light rail line stopping at a minor league stadium. Lol. But maybe The Tide will help change that.

ummm, you are aware that the Salt Lake City Bees, which is a AAA team, has a light rail stop about a block from the stadium.

[varider]

Nowhere in the SPQ documents does it mention a pro arena/stadium.. They are too worried about Tidewater Gardens residents to think big and outside of the box. Plus it's like four blocks from the rail station, and it would probably take up 1/2 of the quadrant. LOL. I want the arena/stadium directly on the rail line.. Either next to Harbor Park (we could have our little version of Philly's sports complex), in Pembroke SGA, or Fort Norfolk

[urbanfan]

ummm, you are aware that the Salt Lake City Bees, which is a AAA team, has a light rail stop about a block from the stadium.

Let's not forget the Buffalo Bisons either. I'm sure there are more. Actually, now that I think of it, the Camden Riversharks are close to Patco Heavy Rail.

Edited October 14, 2009 by urbanfan

[brikkman]

Really? By SPQuad, you mean Saint Paul's Quadrant, right? I hope they continue to pursue this plan once they have the funds for it again. If it's a baseball or football stadium, it should have 40,000 seats or more (By comparison Dick Price Stadium holds up to 30,000 people, Foreman Field holds a little less than 20,000 people, and Harbor Park barely holds 12,000 people). If it's a basketball or hockey arena, it should have 18-20,000 seats. (By comparison, the Hampton Coliseum and the Norfolk Scope hold little over 8,000 people for basketball and hockey games). We cannot expect any teams to relocate here until we have stadiums/arenas large enough to accommodate them.

Also, I hope VA Beach builds that stadium I saw in the plans they have for Pembroke. It looked pretty high-end compared to the stadiums we have around here. Hopefully, no one intervenes and strikes it down.

What I find funniest of all out of all of this is that we're probably gonna be the only metro in the nation with a light rail line stopping at a minor league stadium. Lol. But maybe The Tide will help change that.

I can honestly say Norfolk isn't thinking of that. I would hope that the scope is paid off by now, they do not hold any events on the big floor there but the circus and admiral games. It is really hard to say anything else that they use it for. With that being said, how can they drum up a base or get a good gauge if they do not engage the people into sports at all. They can do this buy hosting a range of smaller events like MMA fights, basketball games, arena football (yes again), anything scope can hold. Then you can see what kinds of responses you will receive. I have to believe that it cost more to maintain it and do nothing with it, then renting it for a substantial price that people could afford. I assume that people do not rent the scope now because of size (which you can not do anything about) and cost......I would be relucant to build anything big if I do not know the interest level is or think my people could afford the cost to attend a game.

[Achilles]

ummm, you are aware that the Salt Lake City Bees, which is a AAA team, has a light rail stop about a block from the stadium.

No, I was not, as a matter of fact, but I am now.

I can honestly say Norfolk isn't thinking of that. I would hope that the scope is paid off by now, they do not hold any events on the big floor there but the circus and admiral games. It is really hard to say anything else that they use it for. With that being said, how can they drum up a base or get a good gauge if they do not engage the people into sports at all. They can do this buy hosting a range of smaller events like MMA fights, basketball games, arena football (yes again), anything scope can hold. Then you can see what kinds of responses you will receive. I have to believe that it cost more to maintain it and do nothing with it, then renting it for a substantial price that people could afford. I assume that people do not rent the scope now because of size (which you can not do anything about) and cost......I would be relucant to build anything big if I do not know the interest level is or think my people could afford the cost to attend a game.

Yeah, you're right. I figured it was too good to be true. And, yeah, paying off all the money spent for such a big stadium that might go to waste would take forever...and ever. I'm too optimistic about bringing pro sports here, I guess. Norfolk really does need to use the Scope more often for sporting events, though.

Having arena football again is out of the question, though, since the AFL folded this year. However, we may have hopes of bringing yet another minor league team here with the formation of the UFL. The UFL has said they are looking to expand into metros without major league teams like Des Moines and Omaha. The UFL says it's supposed to "rival" the NFL, but I seriously doubt that. If anything, it will be a minor league affiliate of the NFL. It'd be pretty sweet if the UFL did give us a team, and the NFL decided to make it a part of the NFL like it did with the teams in the 1959 AFL. But I seriously doubt that as well.

We are, essentially, unable to bring pro sports here because we're stuck with all these venues and stadiums that are critical to our major sports teams like the Tides and the Admirals but are unable to hold enough people for any pro sports. Tearing down any of these venues would be a horrible idea and a big waste of big bucks but keeping them around without using them for much isn't helping either. It's our metro's Catch-22. It certainly won't keep me from trying to bring pro teams here, though.

[varider]

No, I was not, as a matter of fact, but I am now.

Yeah, you're right. I figured it was too good to be true. And, yeah, paying off all the money spent for such a big stadium that might go to waste would take forever...and ever. I'm too optimistic about bringing pro sports here, I guess. Norfolk really does need to use the Scope more often for sporting events, though.

Having arena football again is out of the question, though, since the AFL folded this year. However, we may have hopes of bringing yet another minor league team here with the formation of the UFL. The UFL has said they are looking to expand into metros without major league teams like Des Moines and Omaha. The UFL says it's supposed to "rival" the NFL, but I seriously doubt that. If anything, it will be a minor league affiliate of the NFL. It'd be pretty sweet if the UFL did give us a team, and the NFL decided to make it a part of the NFL like it did with the teams in the 1959 AFL. But I seriously doubt that as well.

We are, essentially, unable to bring pro sports here because we're stuck with all these venues and stadiums that are critical to our major sports teams like the Tides and the Admirals but are unable to hold enough people for any pro sports. Tearing down any of these venues would be a horrible idea and a big waste of big bucks but keeping them around without using them for much isn't helping either. It's our metro's Catch-22. It certainly won't keep me from trying to bring pro teams here, though.

So your telling me that because a couple people's comments all of the sudden your "too optimistic.." If everyone in Hampton Roads thinks it can't happen and anyone who believes it can thinks they are just being "too optimistic.." we'll forever be a minor league meto

[rusthebuss]

Nowhere in the SPQ documents does it mention a pro arena/stadium.. They are too worried about Tidewater Gardens residents to think big and outside of the box. Plus it's like four blocks from the rail station, and it would probably take up 1/2 of the quadrant. LOL. I want the arena/stadium directly on the rail line.. Either next to Harbor Park (we could have our little version of Philly's sports complex), in Pembroke SGA, or Fort Norfolk

Look in the pdf that was for the 2010 plans for DT and you will see two possible locations! I imagine vdogg and guy know what i'm talking about

Edited October 14, 2009 by rusthebuss

[varider]

Look in the pdf that was for the 2010 plans for DT and you will see two possible locations! I imagine vdogg and guy know what i'm talking about

Hmm.. 2010 Plan.. 2010 (two months)has come and I don't see a stadium

[ronsmytheiii]

I personally do not think that a professional sports stadium would be a great idea except for fringe areas after studying urban planning. The stadiums are crazy busy when games are playing, however the area becomes a ghost town during periods when they are not (read most of the time) Harbor Park and minor league teams are more insulated from this due to their smaller size as well as less rigid field standards so that other events can use the field, however those periods do exist. Of course this should change after the new developments on the old parking lots arrive and the High-speed rail station/ lightrail switch over is built, but a good portion of the time Harbor Park is empty, imagine what a freeze a large empty major league stadium would do. No, I would rather Norfolk put any stadium development money into light rail extension/St Paul's Quadrant development/Fort Norfolk.

[varider]

I personally do not think that a professional sports stadium would be a great idea except for fringe areas after studying urban planning. The stadiums are crazy busy when games are playing, however the area becomes a ghost town during periods when they are not (read most of the time) Harbor Park and minor league teams are more insulated from this due to their smaller size as well as less rigid field standards so that other events can use the field, however those periods do exist. Of course this should change after the new developments on the old parking lots arrive and the High-speed rail station/ lightrail switch over is built, but a good portion of the time Harbor Park is empty, imagine what a freeze a large empty major league stadium would do. No, I would rather Norfolk put any stadium development money into light rail extension/St Paul's Quadrant development/Fort Norfolk.

I guess it's just a difference of preference. I'd much rather have a Major League baseball stadium wrapped with retail that I can go watch 80+ games a season at, than a couple thousand housing units and some retail in SPQ. Plus why should the city spend money on something that should be paid for by private investment. All the city must fund is the streets/utility work.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...p&c_id=null

Norfolk, Va., is a serious contender in Major League Baseball's plan to relocate the Montreal Expos for the 2005 season, said Bob DuPuy, MLB's No. 2 official.

[cpeakesqr]

I guess it's just a difference of preference. I'd much rather have a Major League baseball stadium wrapped with retail that I can go watch 80+ games a season at, than a couple thousand housing units and some retail in SPQ. Plus why should the city spend money on something that should be paid for by private investment. All the city must fund is the streets/utility work.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...p&c_id=null

In addition, the Virginia Baseball Stadium Authority, which has been pursuing the Expos for Northern Virginia, recently set up a committee to help Norfolk with its ballpark project. On Tuesday, the seven-person Norfolk City Council set aside $250,000 of the $4 million fund to hire a consultant capable of answering questions from MLB about the proposed stadium.

What was that about should be "paid for by private investment?"

[varider]

What was that about should be "paid for by private investment?"

Referring to ronsmytheii's comment about the $$ would be better spent on developing SPQ or Fort Norfolk than on an arena/stadium

[Achilles]

Referring to ronsmytheii's comment about the $ would be better spent on developing SPQ or Fort Norfolk than on an arena/stadium

I think y'all (varider and cpeaksqr) both misunderstood each other. I'm pretty sure cpeaksqr was being sarcastic and was trying to point out that an MLB stadium would not be funded by private investment, but I think varider meant that housing and retail in Norfolk and SPQ should be paid for by private investment rather than a pro sports stadium. I could be wrong, though.

Also, varider, in response to your comment about me losing my "optimism," I have not lost it, and as I said, I certainly am not going to stop trying to bring pro teams here. I was just saying my idea about building a stadium/arena without having a pro team to call it home was probably a bit too optimistic and unreal. The commenters (including you) here seem to be more knowledgeable on urban planning (obviously) and the like than me, so I trust they would know whether my idea would have any merit to it.

[varider]

I think y'all (varider and cpeaksqr) both misunderstood each other. I'm pretty sure cpeaksqr was being sarcastic and was trying to point out that an MLB stadium would not be funded by private investment, but I think varider meant that housing and retail in Norfolk and SPQ should be paid for by private investment rather than a pro sports stadium. I could be wrong, though.

Also, varider, in response to your comment about me losing my "optimism," I have not lost it, and as I said, I certainly am not going to stop trying to bring pro teams here. I was just saying my idea about building a stadium/arena without having a pro team to call it home was probably a bit too optimistic and unreal. The commenters (including you) here seem to be more knowledgeable on urban planning (obviously) and the like than me, so I trust they would know whether my idea would have any merit to it.

Yeah that's what I think happened too..

& Actually, I'm only in high school. Most of the stuff I've learned about urban planning has been from this forum and heading to urban areas around here like downtown Norfolk/Portsmouth and the Oceanfront, NoVa, Philadelphia, Richmond, etc.. I'm no expert, though. Just a fan..

It's not unreal to build a stadium in hopes of luring a team, but when we have light rail to expand, neighborhoods to redevelop, violence problems to solve, school systems to fix, etc. it probably wouldn't be in the public interest..

If we are in the running for either the NBA or MLB, we will just have to tell them, "look guys, we will build you the best stadium in the league, you'll just have to play in Scope if it's the NBA(which can be renovated very nicely, brand new seats w/cupholders, bathrooms redone, box office expanded) for 2 years, or Harbor Park (same situation)..

The only problem with that is it's failed before. Teams want to move right into their new home ASAP. They don't want to play in a 50 year old 8,000 seat arena! If it were Norfolk and any other city in the running with a 20,000 seat venue and we offered them Scope for a couple years, who do you think will be sucessful in luring the NBA?

So I say build it, 30% revenue from Va Beach, 25% revenue from Norfolk, 10% from Chesapeake, 10% from Newport News, 10% from Hampton, 5% from Suffolk, and 5% from Williamsburg, 5% from the State. The league will be looking to expand within the next 10 years, and if not a team will become mad with their city/venue/owner and lookin to relocate.. Theoretically, they would obviously move to the biggest metro in the state (nova doesn't count) in the biggest state without a pro team.

[cpeakesqr]

I think y'all (varider and cpeaksqr) both misunderstood each other. I'm pretty sure cpeaksqr was being sarcastic and was trying to point out that an MLB stadium would not be funded by private investment, but I think varider meant that housing and retail in Norfolk and SPQ should be paid for by private investment rather than a pro sports stadium. I could be wrong, though.

Also, varider, in response to your comment about me losing my "optimism," I have not lost it, and as I said, I certainly am not going to stop trying to bring pro teams here. I was just saying my idea about building a stadium/arena without having a pro team to call it home was probably a bit too optimistic and unreal. The commenters (including you) here seem to be more knowledgeable on urban planning (obviously) and the like than me, so I trust they would know whether my idea would have any merit to it.

I was being sarcastic, but I didn't misunderstand varider. I don't see how it can be OK to develop a stadium with public money, but not retail/housing in underutilized areas. Both uses of the money have to be justified. And neither plan could be fulfilled without public money. I think you'd have your work cut out for you arguing that public housing in SPQ could be b'dozed and replaced with a stadium using public funds.

However, I'm pretty much not on board with this whole pro sports thing anyways... I think I made that clear in an earlier post. If it could be done painlessly through some kinda voodoo, then I say, "what the hell, do it!" But otherwise it's just not worth the hassle and the money IMO.

[urbanlife]

The only teams that Hampton Roads would be in the running for anymore is going to be MLS, NBA, and NHL. MLB and NFL is out for the region because of DC, it would be almost impossible for the region to compete with a much larger region just to the north.

It makes no sense to build an empty stadium for any reason, though it makes sense to have a committee in place trying to lure a team to the region and having the state willing to put aside money to make that happen....that is basically what Portland and Oregon did when they were going after the Expos.

Also, something worth looking into, Pier Nervi was the architect that constructed the scope, which he was an amazing concrete architect...he had only done a few buildings in the states, it is important to respect and cherish the work that he has done.

Edited October 15, 2009 by urbanlife

[brikkman]

I personally do not care what type of team comes to Norfolk. I just want something everyone can get behind and be proud of and provides other things to do. I do believe that we could build enthusiasm behind getting a team and I believe it can be done in many ways. We do not have to build a new arena, but how about we build a sports entertainment complex dedicated to "sports". Local sports, regional sports and let it spawn. Those types of things will show the desire behind having a major league team, hell even if we only have the tides to rally behind at the moment.