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sports in norfolk


rusthebuss

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Old Dominion's men beat William and Mary by 7 on ESPN this evening to win the CAA tournament. ODU is basically ranked 33 in the nation at the moment and the next step is the NCAA tournament.

Old Dominion women start their CAA tournament this weekend ranked #1 and the first two rounds of the women's NCAA tournament is in Norfolk this year.. so if ODU gets good luck, we will be able to watch the ODU women in the NCAA tournament with a home game.

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I agree with your last point urbanlife my friend!!! Now moving on, someone from Calgary said Hampton Roads doesnt have the population nor corporate strength to support a MLB team. I cant say I agree with that statement but, respect it very much! I disagree with it humbly though. I feel that most of the locals in the metro are tired of being a farm system to major league teams and thats part of why ticket sells are lower than they could be.They feel why pay for a minor league team. I know they feel like VaRider and want a team to call there own. The luxury seats at harbor park arent expensive its just that charging for luxury seats for a minor league team is a hard sell in general when the highest price ticket at Harbor Park thats non luxury is $11!!! Most locals don't know its a luxury seating option, trust me I found out last week! Ironic its was mentioned today/yesterday!

1.7 million people isnt what I would call not enough people to support a MLB team. For a metro like Norfolks with the money(old) in Va Beach and Williamsburg and Portsmouth,heck all the metro we can get season tickets sold and of course regular priced tickets. This areas money that the residents have is under estimated. I have a number of friends and we all earn over six figures(well over)! Most like us are looking for that thing we can participate in like pro team!! I respect the fact the fellow member from Calgary thinks its a no,no for Norfolk with the MLB but, again think our area is under estimated! L.G.N.M

MLB won't work in HR for a variety of reasons.

  • Population: With 1.7 million people, HR would be tied for smallest market team in MLB with Milwaukee, and significantly smaller than all existing NL/AL East teams.
  • Corporate support. HR doesn't have it. Yes, there are a few companies around that can pony up the money, but you need 55-60 that can do it year end and year out. I don't see it.
  • MLB logistics: There's 16 NL teams and 14 AL teams, with the AL only having 4 teams in the West division. The next expansion in MLB has to be an AL franchise and preferably in the west. If HR were to be awarded a team, they would have to compete in the AL East against the Yankees and Red Sox. HR cannot be consistently competitive with $120-200M+/year payrolls (see Tampa Bay, Baltimore, and Toronto). If fans don't feel like their team have a legitimate shot at winning, they won't turn up at the ballpark or watch on TV. Second, it would cause a reshuffle of the AL where it would be difficult to get consensus (Toronto would be the likely beneficiary of a move to the Central, but there would likely be push back from KC or Minnesota on moving to the AL West).
  • So HR's best shot for a MLB franchise was the Expos, because it was a NL East team looking to relocate. However, even then they would have been a small fish in a big pond, competing against NY, Atlanta, and Philly.

I'd love nothing more than for MLB to succeed in HR, but the economics aren't there to support it, especially compared to what other cities can offer. I see a team in San Antonio, Portland, or Sacramento before HR. It's interesting for me, because where I live it's the opposite. We have more than enough corporate support, but not enough people in the city.. yet.

Edited by Glassoul
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MLB won't work in HR for a variety of reasons.

  • Population: With 1.7 million people, HR would be tied for smallest market team in MLB with Milwaukee, and significantly smaller than all existing NL/AL East teams.
  • Corporate support. HR doesn't have it. Yes, there are a few companies around that can pony up the money, but you need 55-60 that can do it year end and year out. I don't see it.
  • MLB logistics: There's 16 NL teams and 14 AL teams, with the AL only having 4 teams in the West division. The next expansion in MLB has to be an AL franchise and preferably in the west. If HR were to be awarded a team, they would have to compete in the AL East against the Yankees and Red Sox. HR cannot be consistently competitive with $120-200M+/year payrolls (see Tampa Bay, Baltimore, and Toronto). If fans don't feel like their team have a legitimate shot at winning, they won't turn up at the ballpark or watch on TV. Second, it would cause a reshuffle of the AL where it would be difficult to get consensus (Toronto would be the likely beneficiary of a move to the Central, but there would likely be push back from KC or Minnesota on moving to the AL West).
  • So HR's best shot for a MLB franchise was the Expos, because it was a NL East team looking to relocate. However, even then they would have been a small fish in a big pond, competing against NY, Atlanta, and Philly.

I'd love nothing more than for MLB to succeed in HR, but the economics aren't there to support it, especially compared to what other cities can offer. I see a team in San Antonio, Portland, or Sacramento before HR. It's interesting for me, because where I live it's the opposite. We have more than enough corporate support, but not enough people in the city.. yet.

This is pretty dead on actually. I love baseball, but even I think Portland would struggle with it and Portland is a bigger and better structured metro than Hampton Roads. Plus you are right that the only expansions we will see are going to be in the AL and probably in the western part of the country. Even if HR got one of these spots, it would have to sell about 80 games a year and probably never have a shot at making it to the playoffs thanks to the Yankees bloated budget.

Also with the 80 games, there is the attendance, PNC in Pittsburgh is one of the smaller modern parks and it is just over 38,000. With NHL, NBA, and MLS if you sell 16K-20K seats a game, then you are doing great...sell that little at an MLB game, then there is a problem. The NFL is different, while there are more seats for NFL, they only have to sell tickets to 8 regular season games a year, which is much easier to do than if they had to do that 80 times a year.

When you get down to it, the math for the MLB just doesnt add up for Hampton Roads. Again, I love baseball as much as the next, but we have to think about this realistically because if we are just making stuff up and pretending that anything is possible for Hampton Roads, then I want a fire breathing, flying, pony that poops million dollar bills. (there really needs to be an emoticon that is that.)

MLS, NHL, and NBA are all that would work in Hampton Roads and would all be very successful and would gain alot of local support from the region. MLS is the only one that will happen through expansion though, everything else will be through relocation. There are probably plenty of southern NHL teams that are getting little to no support where they are (which is surprising Florida has two teams, do they even know what ice is other than something you put in a drink?) For the NBA, HR could easily put itself in an OKC position. Build an arena in the metro to handle multiple events and such, maybe even a new minor league team until the region can score a NBA or NHL team. MLS would be the easiest one to happen in the region simply because the buy in to that league is fairly low (compared to the other pro leagues) and it is easy to manage because of the structure of the league is designed so that there is a fair playing field among the teams and makes it harder for teams to fold. (also with MLS, all it would need is a stadium that could hold about 20K.)

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I agree, MLB is the ne sport besides the NFL I think would be a stretch for the Norfolk Metro! Tht said, just being optimistic. I saw how even when Florida won the World Series with there high population and corporate jobs they couldnt sustain the winning. They couldnt deal with payroll etc.! The MLB is probably the one sport in most of the need for a salry cap to even the playing field as well. Boston and New York will always have an edge. St.Louis has the tradition and carzy fan support though not as big of a market. I feel you guys opinion and respect it as well. Im swayed in you guys direction now. More and more I think about it had we got the Expos franchise which is now the Nationals we would be down in attendance!

We will do better with a NHL/NBA team and even then it wont be easy but, we can do it. Green Bay is very fortunate to have there team in the NFL. Had they not been a team established in the early days of pro football the Packers wouldnt exist today. I guess me using smaller places then here isnt always a good example as well because circumstance makes chance! Lets just hope young people like Varider and others on this site get to see a local pro team before long. Hope Im around to see it as well. L.G.N.Mcamera.gif

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I'm probably getting more off topic here, but wanted to add my two cents. You won't see any expansion by MLB (if at all) for another 15-20 years. The league is already diluted in terms of talent though nowhere near the NHL (who is by far the most diluted of the 4 big leagues) or to a lesser extent the NBA. For the the most part markets are pretty saturated, though a few select cities like San Antonio and Portland could be realistic places for a MLB team. There are rumors floating around about a major realignment in MLB in the next couple of years to balance the league out. One is get both leagues with the same number of teams (currently 14 AL and 16 NL). The other is to get the major market teams like Boston and New York seperated (though I don't think lessening the Yanks/Sox rivalry is a good idea). The thing that will always hurt the state of Virginia is its proximity to DC and a lesser extent to North Carolina. As others have mentioned, the best hope for the HR area is to get an OKC type scenario. Though, you need a viable arena already built to have a chance (much like Kansas City has done). Can't put enough emphasis on how important it is to already have an existing state of the art venue in place. You can debate all you want on how you may think a given metro can support a team, but without a viable venue in place you can forget it.

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I'm probably getting more off topic here, but wanted to add my two cents. You won't see any expansion by MLB (if at all) for another 15-20 years. The league is already diluted in terms of talent though nowhere near the NHL (who is by far the most diluted of the 4 big leagues) or to a lesser extent the NBA. For the the most part markets are pretty saturated, though a few select cities like San Antonio and Portland could be realistic places for a MLB team. There are rumors floating around about a major realignment in MLB in the next couple of years to balance the league out. One is get both leagues with the same number of teams (currently 14 AL and 16 NL). The other is to get the major market teams like Boston and New York seperated (though I don't think lessening the Yanks/Sox rivalry is a good idea). The thing that will always hurt the state of Virginia is its proximity to DC and a lesser extent to North Carolina. As others have mentioned, the best hope for the HR area is to get an OKC type scenario. Though, you need a viable arena already built to have a chance (much like Kansas City has done). Can't put enough emphasis on how important it is to already have an existing state of the art venue in place. You can debate all you want on how you may think a given metro can support a team, but without a viable venue in place you can forget it.

I dont think the region actually needs to have the arena in place, it is just as important to have the money and land to build it in place. Knowing the state and region had money set aside for when they acquired a team would work just as well.

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I dont think the region actually needs to have the arena in place, it is just as important to have the money and land to build it in place. Knowing the state and region had money set aside for when they acquired a team would work just as well.

For a new expansion franchise, this would be the case yes because you usually have a waiting period of a few years before that team starts play... However, for a franchise to relocate you'd need an existing venue capable of handling a team. I don't think you'd have any shot at landing a relocation if say you have a venue that can be built within 2 years when there are places like Kansas City with the Sprint Center already waiting. Because HR isn't an establish pro market, you need something that stands out. Tulsa is a great example. They just won the rights to the Detroit WBNA franchise, in part because they had a new venue (which is actually pretty sweet IMO). OKC already had their venue, they just had to make some upgrades in time for the Thunder's first season there.

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I think both of you are right on the issue as far as acquiring a team but, that said, the safe way is already have it built. Doesnt mean that one of you fellow members is coorect and the others wrong both are right in theory. The safe way is to have it built so the following season it can be set up to be a place were a team in need of a home arena moves right into. Its like having a home for a military family that already built as opposed to building it in 4-6 months, they will find one they can move right into!!! I also feel a state of the art arena would attract more year around events. I lived in bigger metros before(D.C/New York/Miami) and they have the venues to attain event after event.

Yes, we get shows in the warmer months a the Va Beach Verizon Wireless outdoor venue and at times at the N Telos Portsmouth Venue as well as Scope and the Hampton Venue but, a 18,000-25,000 seat indoor venue provides a weather proof spot that can attract acts of Bigger stature that will only play more modern indoor venues. Also, our biggest venue for shows is outdoors which just a thunderstorm can cancel. Of course tornados/hurricanes/blizzards can cancel all events but, just rain cancels the Va Beach Verizon venues events.

The new arena can do sports and comedy and music and local and state events as well as attract the NCAAA for the Tournament! Maybe one day the Final 8/16/4!!! My point, there are so many things we can do besides sports with a new venue! Its a multi purpose arena so until sports come and if not it can be used for BIG name concerts and attract acts we can't normally get because the biggest indoor spot is 12,000 or less. Also, our indoor arenas are lacking in the modern amenities I see when Im at the MCI Center in D.C or Staples and the other venues I performed at and visitied friends in the biz when they were in town.L.G.N.Mrolleyes.gif

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For a new expansion franchise, this would be the case yes because you usually have a waiting period of a few years before that team starts play... However, for a franchise to relocate you'd need an existing venue capable of handling a team. I don't think you'd have any shot at landing a relocation if say you have a venue that can be built within 2 years when there are places like Kansas City with the Sprint Center already waiting. Because HR isn't an establish pro market, you need something that stands out. Tulsa is a great example. They just won the rights to the Detroit WBNA franchise, in part because they had a new venue (which is actually pretty sweet IMO). OKC already had their venue, they just had to make some upgrades in time for the Thunder's first season there.

Well see there you go, I for one wouldnt really consider the WNBA a pro league or a pro league that gets much attention, but acquiring a D-League team and a WNBA team, or whatever would be a good reason to build such an arena in order to eventually upgrade it when a pro team wished to move to the region.

Though all of this hypothetical talk I want to make it very clear, I would be extremely against the removal of the Scope in any way, simply because it is a piece of Norfolk's history as well as a beautiful concrete building from an amazing architect that only did a few buildings within the states and for some reason Norfolk managed to get his work and talent. (how that happened is beyond me.)

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As the saying goes, if they build it, they will come. Honestly, it is quite amazing in the entire state of Virginia, there isn't a modern pro style 18k-20k arena. There is going to be a real interesting race to build a "real" arena between Norfolk and Virginia Beach, heck, you can even add Richmond, because they won't be keeping the CAA tournament for long in that dump they call the Coliseum. I would have to guess Virginia Beach is the best position to do it with a Town Center location combined with light rail, especially considering who is mayor now. I just think Norfolk may have too much on its plate the next 5-10 years.(i.e. removal of projects, new court house, light rail overruns, ect.)

Edited by VAGATOR
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Everything is in place in the Norfolk metro to step up 1st. Northern VA is basically D.C. and they have n need for a 18,000-25,000 seat spot due to it being a part of the D.C/Baltimore mega metro area!!! The part of the state that has to step up is Richmond and Norfolk! Some will argue this as wrong and I hear the No's NOW,hahahahah! I say build it between Norfolk and Richmond in Williamburg and share in the cost with the Richmond area to make it a joint venture. If not that it has to be a joint thing cost wise with The big southside cities together(Norfolk/Va Beach in terms of popularity etc.)!

We are years behind a metro of our size but, I am a person who if youve seen my cmments on other subjects feels like the military has been a crutch for sports/financial/cultural advancement! The military is this areas bread and butter and from a political standpoint they have never felt a need here for a sports team at all. Its going to take a miracle for us to get a pro team because trust that the D.C owners in all sports wont be having any of that. It always takes league approval that I doubt the D.C teams will grant!!!! L.G.N.Mrolleyes.gif

Edited by usermel
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Everything is in place in the Norfolk metro to step up 1st. Northern VA is basically D.C. and they have n need for a 18,000-25,000 seat spot due to it being a part of the D.C/Baltimore mega metro area!!! The part of the state that has to step up is Richmond and Norfolk! Some will argue this as wrong and I hear the No's NOW,hahahahah! I say build it between Norfolk and Richmond in Williamburg and share in the cost with the Richmond area to make it a joint venture. If not that it has to be a joint thing cost wise with The big southside cities together(Norfolk/Va Beach in terms of popularity etc.)!

Arena built in between metros(Old Cleveland Coliseum) or the burbs(USAir Arena(DC), don't and haven't work. The new arena is going to have to be in a city center near public transportation.

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Mayor Fraim received and read your email of March 7th regarding Sports in Norfolk.

The Mayor asked me to let you know that he also is a big proponent of a large arena. However, in order to make a new, large arena a reality an anchor tenant has to be secured therein lies one of the main difficulties.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on this and maybe one day in the future we will be able to get pro-sports here in Norfolk along with a big new arena.

Very respectfully,

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Interesting article from the NY Times about how some major league sports owners are having to deal with the recession, and how some people like Michael Jordan (who is buying the Bobcats) are taking advantage to buy in to the leagues. There's a paragraph towards the bottom that talks about various teams that may be up for sale (NY Times seems to think as many as 12 may be). So, I immediately thought of HR in that it *may* be an opportunity to land a relocation. Teams such as the NBA's Detroit Pistons and Atlanta Hawks aren't likely to move, but some like the Memphis Grizzlies or Columbus Blue Jackets and Atlanta Thrashers may be.

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  • 3 weeks later...

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/04/tides-strike-out-opener-big-crowd#rfq

NORFOLK

With most local schools on spring break and a game-time temperature of 87 degrees, fans came out in full force Thursday night for the Norfolk Tides' season opener at Harbor Park.

In fact, it was the largest Opening Night crowd since 1995.

The 10,056 on hand didn't have much to cheer about, though.

On a breezy evening when strikeouts were plentiful, the Durham Bulls were better at manufacturing runs in a 5-3 victory.

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