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sports in norfolk


rusthebuss

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I noticed the e-mail from Mayor Fraim, who I give a lot of credit for his efforts to lure pro sports (NHL in the mid-90s, NBA in the early-2000s, MLB mid-2000s), but I have to disagree with him on the primary tenant needed. Norfolk is passed over time after time because no major league team is going to settle for the Scope (9,000-11,000 capacity) or Harbor Park (12,000) while waiting two or more years for the appropriate facility. Too much money would be lost over that amount of time.

I understand a facility is expensive, minimum $250 million most likely. The most likely way to get the arena:

-$125 mil from the city (ideally each city puts up something, with the host city putting up the highest percentage, but it would probably be just one city)

-Naming rights...I hate them, but it's the future, a necessary evil. I'd propose about $8.25 mil a year for 15 years, which would be $123.75 mil

-The rest comes from a tax increase or tolls. Honestly, For a long term investment like this, I wouldn't mind, but people don't even want a tax increase for improving the roads, and that's a true necessity. And considering it would only be another $1.5 mil or so needed, I'm not so sure the tax would even be needed. Haven't figured that part out, but if this could be done for about $250M without breaking the bank for taxpayers, I could see it working.

The ball is now in the city's court (no pun intended). I can understand the city not having 1/2 of that, considering the Westin costs $150M, and Granby Tower was somewhere in the ballpark. But it would be the most likely scenario. And it doesn't have to be extravagant like Cowboys or Yankee Stadiums, just needs to be state-of-the-art, and something that won't become dated in 20 years. The Constant Center at ODU is awesome, but small. Something like that, but with 20,000 seats, and with space for conventions and trade shows would be perfect. However, do not tear down Scope...that could still be used for the Admirals and high school basketball championships...

Location? I say the old Norfolk Plaza parking lot, across from MacArthur Center Mall, although there might be concerns about the neighborhood surrounding it.

One last thing...is Arena Football coming back or not? I think that would be something to consider with the proper facility. I don't count that Nighthawks venture from 10 years ago...bad promotion kinda hurt Norfolk on that one.

I agree with you 100%

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Actually I am kind of curious if the Scope could be renovated to hold 18K-20K seats...I am just wondering that because the dome structure is self supporting so that would technically mean that the seating bowl could be hollowed out and expanded on without affecting the dome itself. Obviously this is just something I am wondering about seeing that I havent ever seen the specs for this building and there could be a major obstacle that I am not seeing.

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In this market, a new arena would cost more towards 200 million dollars not 250, for example the new Phoenix hockey arena, and companies are cutting back on things like naming rights, 8.7 million ain't happening, but I could see somewhere around 2 million a year. I don't know what city is going to do it, but I see an arena happening in the near future.

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Actually I am kind of curious if the Scope could be renovated to hold 18K-20K seats...I am just wondering that because the dome structure is self supporting so that would technically mean that the seating bowl could be hollowed out and expanded on without affecting the dome itself. Obviously this is just something I am wondering about seeing that I havent ever seen the specs for this building and there could be a major obstacle that I am not seeing.

Actually, I think the old Mellon Arena in Pittsburgh did just that. Per Wiki:

As part of the 1967 NHL expansion, the city of Pittsburgh was selected to host one of six new franchises. With a hockey seating capacity of 12,508, Pittsburgh's Mellon Arena was eight seats over the NHL's minimum seating benchmark.

So, I think upper decks could be done, and probably save a lot more money. With Norfolk considering Waterside, I'd hate to see another unique structure face demolition. So if Scope could add an upper deck that goes all the way around, I'd be in favor of it, at least until the money could be raised for a new arena.

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I would be in favor of just about anything that saves the Scope and keeps it being active and well used. I know I have pointed this out before in here, but I always like to keep pointing this out, Pier Nervi was an amazing concrete engineer and Norfolk somehow was lucky enough to be one of only a hand full of cities within the US to get a building designed by him. I cant express enough how amazing of a designer he was and I would be horrified if Norfolk ever carelessly tore down a piece that he designed.

Pier Nervi, obviously wikipedia is only going to give a small amount of information on this man, but I would definitely suggest anyone who is remotely interested in knowing more about him should do some research and find some of the books that have been made about him, you will be pleasantly surprised with what you find.

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I agree urbanlife, Scope is a local treasure. Hope it stays and is preserved. That said, we need a totally new arena because the Scope is limited in space and this gives the metro and the city less of a chance of securing events that call for larger indoor space! That said, your absolutely right, the Scope and its designer together are local treasures and we should be honored Pier Nervi engineered anything for us in Norfolk. He was a major man in his field and respected and world renowned!!!shades.gifshades.gif

Edited by usermel
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Had another thought that ties into location.

Wherever this new venue would go, it needs to have a separate thoroughfare to offset the traffic jams. The road leading to Harbor Park is nice, but something even more elaborate.

Think the I-64 W off-ramp that takes you to Busch Gardens. You take that ramp and what feels like a separate Interstate just to get to that backroad of restaurants, hotels, the golf course, and eventually the park. There's also a special on-ramp that takes you BACK to I-64 E.

I dunno where you could even find land like that except for maybe in Suffolk, but the setup would be great, because it would mean minimal traffic for your major Interstates. I think downtown Norfolk is too landlocked (read: congested) to attempt a 20,000-seat arena, but depending on what part of VB, I think that could work, perhaps somewhere between Town Center and the Oceanfront.

Also, Bower's Hill in Chesapeake wouldn't be a bad option...

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Had another thought that ties into location.

Wherever this new venue would go, it needs to have a separate thoroughfare to offset the traffic jams. The road leading to Harbor Park is nice, but something even more elaborate.

Think the I-64 W off-ramp that takes you to Busch Gardens. You take that ramp and what feels like a separate Interstate just to get to that backroad of restaurants, hotels, the golf course, and eventually the park. There's also a special on-ramp that takes you BACK to I-64 E.

I dunno where you could even find land like that except for maybe in Suffolk, but the setup would be great, because it would mean minimal traffic for your major Interstates. I think downtown Norfolk is too landlocked (read: congested) to attempt a 20,000-seat arena, but depending on what part of VB, I think that could work, perhaps somewhere between Town Center and the Oceanfront.

Also, Bower's Hill in Chesapeake wouldn't be a bad option...

I disagree. For one, Scope Arena has events that near 13,000 and events such as today's Beer Fest easily have 20,000+ people downtown. & you've got to add in the fact that downtown Norfolk is easily accessible by transit & with LRT opening soon, thousands could arrive by train.

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WVEC-13 briefly reported this evening that the UFL-United Football League could bring a franchise to Norfolk, and that Super Bowl champ Doug Williams could be tapped as the GM. I don't expect it to lead to an NFL team in Virginia, but the UFL has gotten a lot of fanfare recently. I could see them playing at Foreman Field or Dick Price Stadium on NSU's campus...both hold between 20,000-30,000, which is fine for a smaller league, although from what I read, the attendance was decent.

Sparsely-attended games were a noticeable part of the UFL's regular season, with announced crowds ranging from as low as 4,312 for California's November 14 home game in San Jose[7] to as high as 18,187 for the October 8 inaugural game in Las Vegas,[8] (though media observers at the game suggested the actual in-house attendance for that first game was considerably less).[9][10] The twelve regular-season contests drew a total of 116,132 fans, or an average of 9,678 a game. Florida led the league in average attendance (13,225), while California (5,836) and New York (6,637), hampered in part by shifts in game sites and competing in major markets with an NFL presence, brought up the rear in attendance average. Further, two New York home games were held the same nights as Games 2 and 6 of the 2009 World Series, featuring the New York Yankees.[11] Other factors—including the lack of a season ticket package, big police murder(s) in Vegas, large-scale college football in Florida, the death of UConn football player Jasper Howard and Tim Lincecum's Cy Young Award press conference just prior to a Redwoods home game—hampered attendance severely.Source

Honestly, I'd consider using Harbor Park the same way Norfolk's high schools did for years. The season starts after the ILB season is done, but Foreman/Price could work just as well. I'd consider 10,000 in attendance to be a great first year.

Here's a little more from NBC Sports...

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Checked out the links, interesting. Would be nice to have a team like the Ls Vegas squad if we get one. A winner attracts fans. That said, this is the next best thing to the NFL and I would go to games. Just as long as they dont go USFL and try to challenge the NFL! Saw a few UFL games and they were good. I dont like the uniforms and feel they must correct that. All in all the league has players the NFL couldnt keep on there 53 man roosters but, they are good players. Most the players in the UFL are last guys cut or practice squad guys or even ex-starters. We can support the attendance as well at NSU or ODU's stadiums! Hope we get Doug Williams if Norfolk gets the team, his name is another draw in sports with those into football especially!!! L.G.N.Mshades.gifshades.gifshades.gif

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Yeah, VaRider, we may have to crawl before we can walk as the elders use to tell me. What we need to get a pro team in the 4 major sports and what we lack, I have no certain answers to that but, seeing some type of pro sports I guess will have to do. HAHAHAHA! I feel your pain. Maybe we will get a person or persons from here who want a team here like the OKlahoma City team owner that is from Norfolks metro and wants the team here. May be our best and only chance at securing a team. L.G.N.Mshades.gifshades.gifshades.gif

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Hampton Roads in general is the largest metroppolitan in the US without a pro sports franchise. This metro is larger than New Orleans, Buffalo, and are slightly larger than...(wait for it)...Charlotte!

What a shame.... I live in the largest city without a sports team.. just my luck.

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I dont know if this helps build our case for a major league franchise... but I'm almost positive that Norfolk is the only city with modern, urban rail transit (subways or LRT) that doesn't have a pro sports team.

I'm fairly certain that Las Vegas after this year's census will move past Hampton Roads as the biggest metro (very unfortunate) without a sports team, and they have a privately-owned monorail that links different hotels and shopping areas along the Strip.

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Las Vegas is unique in its reason for not having a pro team as of yet. The gambling(legal) in the city has always been a negative for the city when trying to attain a pro team. They already have the other tools needed for a pro team. Name recognition is not an issue, money for a stadium(can build it with dollars made from gambling) or arena etc., all they need is there but, most major sports leagues are cautious to locate a pro team there due to the fears of gambling and illegal activities as well as many other factors. Las Vegas again is unique because the reason they dont yet have a team, isnt the same as Norfolk. For the most part when they pass Norfolk in Metro Population it will only be a statistic.

Norfolk numbers wise wont be the largest metro without a pro sports team when Las Vegas' metro passes Norfolks metro but, Norfolk from a standpoint of its history will mentally still be the largest metro without a pro team because Las Vegas may never be able to get a pro team(4 major sports) to locate there because of the legal gambling anyway!!!shades.gifshades.gifshades.gif

Edited by usermel
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Las Vegas is unique in its reason for not having a pro team as of yet. The gambling(legal) in the city has always been a negative for the city when trying to attain a pro team. They already have the other tools needed for a pro team. Name recognition is not an issue, money for a stadium(can build it with dollars made from gambling) or arena etc., all they need is there but, mose major sports leagues are cautious to locate a pro team there due to the fears of gambling and illegal activities as well as many other factors. Las Vegas again is unique because the reason they dont yet have a team, isnt the same as Norfolk. For the most part when they pass Norfolk in Metro Population it will only be a statistic.

Norfolk numbers wise wont be the largest metro without a pro sports team when Las Vegas' metro passes Norfolks metro but, Norfolk from a standpoint of its history will mentally still the largest metro without a pro team because Las Vegas may never be able to get a pro team(4 major sports) to locate there because of the legal gambling!!!shades.gifshades.gifshades.gif

You have to wonder whether Vegas even wants a pro-sports team. It would kinda be a distraction from the main draw.

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I think Las Vegas does want a pro sports team. It generates more money and provides a greater diversity of things to do, especially for residents. What they would probably do is do what they do in the case of collegiate sports in Nevada and make it illegal to bet on the team.

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I agree and have seen interviews with people on ESPN in the past that want a Las Vegas team. They want one for sure. The thing about Las Vegas that we have in common with it is a major economic generator. For Las Vegas its gambling. For Norfolk, its the military dollars. They will have to make some decisions regarding legal gambling there but, with the mobs that are there and the stigma gambling already has, its a tough sell to the NFL,MLB,NBA,NHL!!!! Also, Las Vegas is a cash cow and the need for a team is only entertainment based. The money isnt needed there due to the gambling being legal. The thing about that city is what would it be if all the casinos closed(wont happen)!!

As for our fair city of Norfolk and its metro, we need more of a united front and for the other 6 major cities to humble themselves and name it Norfolk and locate it there and possibly share in the profits(say Va Beach/Portsmouth or Va Beach alone joins Norfolk in the arena expense etc.) of the team. If not, Norfolk needs to make a strong play for a team. A determined city can make it happen. The NBA I think is the better choice for our metro. The NHL wont appeal to the entire local population as the NBA will. The MLB would work but, 162 games and alot during work hours may not work here. The NBA's 82 games and mass appeal along with the fact there is no team locally or in the next 150 miles to compete with that has made an impact like the Redskins.

Being the Charlotte team and D.C team havent been big winners theres room for Norfolk to get an NBA team here and control local fans and those within 100 miles away.

Football to me I'd love most but, to big of a risk due to the Redskins who rather win or lose attract fans who stay loyal. Im a Cowboy fan but, respect the Redskins support they get win or lose and the organization is a class act. The owner wants to win and gets what he needs to do so, though not successful recently he at least tries. We dont want to go up against the Redskins or even the Ravens for that matter. The NBA or NHL are the best bets. The only issue with the NHL I have is mass appeal locally. They have great athletes but, only certain locals follow hockey here. Think it will work if we have a great coach and owner and a star like Sydney Crosby but, without that will locals support a loser in hockey here without a star. I think they may for 3 years or so, my issue is long term with hockey.

Not alot of high school hockey played here, great sport and the guys are tougher than NFL players(just a tad, not to much the NFL guys are tough as well) That said, I hope we get an NBA or NHL team. If we get the NFL or MLB, Id be shocked but, I'll take it!!! HHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! shades.gifshades.gifshades.gif

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I agree and have seen interviews with people on ESPN in the past that want a Las Vegas team. They want one for sure. The thing about Las Vegas that we have in common with it is a major economic generator. For Las Vegas its gambling. For Norfolk, its the military dollars. They will have to make some decisions regarding legal gambling there but, with the mobs that are there and the stigma gambling already has, its a tough sell to the NFL,MLB,NBA,NHL!!!! Also, Las Vegas is a cash cow and the need for a team is only entertainment based. The money isnt needed there due to the gambling being legal. The thing about that city is what would it be if all the casinos closed(wont happen)!!

I remember the gambling aspect also being a factor when Norfolk and Vegas were on the short list for what became the Nats.

People talk about the locals not supporting a team here, but I think it's an even bigger factor in a tourist town like Vegas. I know the metro is about the same size as Hampton Roads, but again, the tourism factor makes me wonder would the stands be packed with locals or vacationers?

Not alot of high school hockey played here, great sport and the guys are tougher than NFL players(just a tad, not to much the NFL guys are tough as well) That said, I hope we get an NBA or NHL team. If we get the NFL or MLB, Id be shocked but, I'll take it!!! HHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! shades.gifshades.gifshades.gif

I could see NBA or NHL, which is all the more reason why Norfolk needs to consider a new arena. Not a replacement for the iconic Scope, but a new venue in a different location. I thought about last week, and did a little math. I'm not sure how feasible either of these are, so work with me. Let's say the arena is 225-250M.

The host city puts up 50M, the other six cities 25, which is 200. The remaining 25-50 could come from a 3% hotel/tourism tax. I can't find the article, but I read that VB pulled in about $700M in revenue last year, and that was a down year. If the entire region pulled $1 billion, that would be $30M for the arena, which would put things at $230M. The profits could be split between the seven cities, with the host city receiving the higher 2:1 share.

PRO: It requires the cities to work together. CON: It requires the cities to work together.

No naming rights, and it could be called Seven Cities Arena. Has a nice ring a la Three Rivers Stadium (It hurt me typing that as a Cowboys fan rolleyes.gif).

It's apples and oranges, but when high school bball playoffs were at Churchland High, it was like a madhouse in that gym, and the move to the Scope was very successful. Would love to see that success and energy translate to the new Norfolk/Hampton Roads/Virginia Squires! blush.gif

Edited by BFG
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Not trying to start this argument again, but BFG your plan has way too much government involvement in this. If the market isn't there than it's not there and the government can't force it to be there because a stadium or arena being built won't necessarily bring in a team, there's just no guarantee with that. Your plan leaves out any possibility of private funding, including probably one of the most important - naming rights. Why shouldn't private companies compete with each other to bid the highest price to a private developer to have their name on a privately-owned venue? Why do the local governments have to be such major investors in a venue. Yes, they could provide some money and build infrastructure as part of a private-public investment, but when the government takes on too big of a role people will get angry that their money is paying for something about which they weren't consulted. I'm all for a pro team coming to the area, but I don't want the city/region to build something that will remain under-utilized for years while we wait for something unlikely to happen. Capitalism, competition, and the free-market should and will regulate any relocation to this area and the development of a sports venue thereafter. That is not only my opinion, but the majority opinion of the residents of this metro.

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