sports in norfolk

[zeppelin14]

Agree. I went to the game Saturday night. Decent crown but it is ridiculous that there is only one box office, underground and hidden. The seats are tiny too. I'm 5'11'' so not even that tall and my knees are against the back of the seat.

[BFG]

In addition to luring other sports options, a new arena would do wonders for the city. Norfolk could easily host college basketball tournaments (the MEAC and CAA both have quite a few schools in the area -- HU/ODU/NSU/W&M), as well as some early NCAA tournament rounds.

I understand with light rail's opening being pushed back indefinitely, Norfolk might not want to take that plunge. But that's where naming rights and hotel/restaurant/rental car taxes come in. I think an arena could do pretty well for the city, but I also understand it not being a top priority. They've had the chance quite a few times in the last 15 years, but the plans always fell through.

[virginia pe]

I've said it once (or twice, or a billion times), and I'll say it again. the city of Norfolk needs to invest, or at least begin thinking about, the development of a new state of the art arena in downtown Norfolk. scope is too small, designed poorly (box office in an underground parking deck?), and outdated.

The city of Norfolk has considered a new arena, and has decided it doesn't fit in their plans (or their budget) for the next decade or two. Light rail, the Westin convention center, and the Half Moone cruise ship terminal are all contributing to that decision. The site where they envisioned a new arena when they were wooing the Charlotte Hornets and the Rhinos is now the Wells Fargo Center. In short, the city has given up on the idea of a new arena, according to this VP article from 2007. I don't see anything that has happened in the last four years that would change that, except possibly the Westin project being put on hold.

I'm sorry to throw ice water on the hopes of many of you on this forum, but dreaming of a new arena in Norfolk is just not realistic at this time.

[urbanlife]

The city of Norfolk has considered a new arena, and has decided it doesn't fit in their plans (or their budget) for the next decade or two. Light rail, the Westin convention center, and the Half Moone cruise ship terminal are all contributing to that decision. The site where they envisioned a new arena when they were wooing the Charlotte Hornets and the Rhinos is now the Wells Fargo Center. In short, the city has given up on the idea of a new arena, according to this VP article from 2007. I don't see anything that has happened in the last four years that would change that, except possibly the Westin project being put on hold.

I'm sorry to throw ice water on the hopes of many of you on this forum, but dreaming of a new arena in Norfolk is just not realistic at this time.

I agree, and in reality the chances of the region getting any pro team of any sorts will happen when a group of wealthy people want to bring a team to the region and there hasn't been any real standout candidate for that. Both of Portland's pro teams are controlled by wealthy people who wanted a team here.

[VAGATOR]

This area needs a new arena, this region misses out on numerous major concerts, sports tournaments, and other events because The Scope is a dump. I'm not even worried about attracting a pro team at the moment. I think out of the top 50 metros in this country, Hampton Roads may have the worst arena situation, next to Richmond.

[usermel]

Yes, our area and Richmond need an upgrade but, that is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to our arenas and attracting pro teams. The area cant support pro sports now. The income and local economy is to dependent of the military and theres a need for bigger companies with higher paying jobs to support teams were a arena needs to be at least 17,000 0r 18,000 seats to support a team(hockey,basketball)! Scope isn't a bad arena when you think of when it was built. At the time it was a gem in the whole state as was the Coliseum in Hampton. Both are old and outdated but, our metro isn't what we want it to be. Population tells a small part of what this area is. Take away those here via military and thats how many residents we truly have.

Not many stay after college or after there military duty is done because its not a great job market locally. A better arena may not make much sense due to the economics as well. Hey, I LOVE were Im from but, the truth is, we have what we have in all aspects cause its what this area is. If we want big city, we must go to Northern VA or D.C itself. If we want a area to live in that can support a team, we must move! VA is ran by old fashioned folks to this day and that may change but, no time soon. You would be surprised to know how many folks son't want growth in Norfolk/Va Beach nor Richmond at all. An arena of 17,000-18,000 is a sign of next level growth and trust it can be built but, this is what our area is, next years Boomtown, problem is, we've been waiting on this boom for 20 years or more now!L.G.N.M

[urbanlife]

Yes, our area and Richmond need an upgrade but, that is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to our arenas and attracting pro teams. The area cant support pro sports now. The income and local economy is to dependent of the military and theres a need for bigger companies with higher paying jobs to support teams were a arena needs to be at least 17,000 0r 18,000 seats to support a team(hockey,basketball)! Scope isn't a bad arena when you think of when it was built. At the time it was a gem in the whole state as was the Coliseum in Hampton. Both are old and outdated but, our metro isn't what we want it to be. Population tells a small part of what this area is. Take away those here via military and thats how many residents we truly have.

Not many stay after college or after there military duty is done because its not a great job market locally. A better arena may not make much sense due to the economics as well. Hey, I LOVE were Im from but, the truth is, we have what we have in all aspects cause its what this area is. If we want big city, we must go to Northern VA or D.C itself. If we want a area to live in that can support a team, we must move! VA is ran by old fashioned folks to this day and that may change but, no time soon. You would be surprised to know how many folks son't want growth in Norfolk/Va Beach nor Richmond at all. An arena of 17,000-18,000 is a sign of next level growth and trust it can be built but, this is what our area is, next years Boomtown, problem is, we've been waiting on this boom for 20 years or more now!L.G.N.M

Which I always feel like I need to point out, the Scope was designed by an amazing architect that has done some spectacular things in Europe with concrete and Norfolk and San Francisco are two cities (and I think only two cities in the US) that were lucky enough to get a structure designed by Pier Luigi Nervi, and that reason alone the structure should be considered a historical landmark of Norfolk even if the city or region builds something larger.

With that say, much of this comment is a really good point, there has yet to be any big investor stepping out to try and bring a team to the area, nor has there been enough major corporation based from that metro to justify wanting to take the risk of moving a team to the metro. Also there is the issue that the cities each function individually rather than as a metro as a whole.

I do think that if there is a larger arena or stadium of sorts built in Hampton Roads, it is going to be apart of Virginia Beach's city center expansion that is planned to happen in Pembroke. I can see something like this being used as a way to push a new section of the district to be built and have a focus. For Norfolk and Richmond there just doesn't seem to be enough political push for anything outside of the Virginia side of DC housing any of DC's teams.

[brikkman]

Which I always feel like I need to point out, the Scope was designed by an amazing architect that has done some spectacular things in Europe with concrete and Norfolk and San Francisco are two cities (and I think only two cities in the US) that were lucky enough to get a structure designed by Pier Luigi Nervi, and that reason alone the structure should be considered a historical landmark of Norfolk even if the city or region builds something larger.

With that say, much of this comment is a really good point, there has yet to be any big investor stepping out to try and bring a team to the area, nor has there been enough major corporation based from that metro to justify wanting to take the risk of moving a team to the metro. Also there is the issue that the cities each function individually rather than as a metro as a whole.

I do think that if there is a larger arena or stadium of sorts built in Hampton Roads, it is going to be apart of Virginia Beach's city center expansion that is planned to happen in Pembroke. I can see something like this being used as a way to push a new section of the district to be built and have a focus. For Norfolk and Richmond there just doesn't seem to be enough political push for anything outside of the Virginia side of DC housing any of DC's teams.

I can agree with that, especially if you do not take the opportunity to be the best when you decide to build. Harbor park is a good example of that. Although it was design to expand, we currently have what we have. That would have been a great opportunity to build a world class stadium for the majors, but they decide on world class AAA.

In addition to this, I'm overly concerned about ODU's acquisition of events. That is an issue for me because I do not believe the city should depend or give an university opportunity to host streamline events because its revenue for the university and not the city (and they do not pay taxes). The TED constant gets all types of events, events perfect for the scope if you ask me, this tells me they are managing the scope poorly. As of recent, they hosted M1 (I think that is the name), mix martial arts. That would have been perfect for scope, along with the globe trotters, comedy shows, TNA, etc... These are missed opportunities for scope, scope is not being used most of the time, this is a fact.

My dreams of a big team is gone, I've determined that we do not have salaries to support such events in a constant manner. But I believe they should go for other sports entertainment like UFC, arena football/soccer, WWE/TNA, and shows. They as of late started to host the regional basketball event which is a good thing.

They should tackle those types of sports/entertainment if you ask me, only because it does not require them to build anything new, scope should suffice.

[usermel]

The Harbor Park point is great as well as the Scope being a landmark of historical value, I agree with both points. Now, about Harbor Park. That is a great place to have a pro stadium and could be expanded. I was thinking. Should they try and expand it now before a team is possible(pro baseball) so when the chance arises, we have it. Could be used for outdoor shows and events until we acquire the baseball team. I also agree, outside of the D.C metro having the benefit of the Wizards and Nationals and the Capitals and Redskins, theres no real concern for pro sports and Im starting to think thats why. The Redskins among all of the teams are supported by this area most. A football team won't happen. Baltimore is an exception due to its history and economic ability to support a few pro teams.

Well, what can be done? How can Norfolk/Va Beach or Richmond get pro sports within state lines? I wish before I leave this earth hopefully of old age and unpainfully, I get to see a pro team in VA. Though I LOVE having the Destroyers of the UFL coming soon and the coach they got is top of the line. I want a NBA/NFL/MLB/NHL team I can support in person. I'll support the UFL cause it's ours and can show if we support it, we can support a bigger team! If only we had a Paul Allen(Portland Trailblazers) or or someone who had billions who lived here and loved sports and wanted a team here and could pay the price needed like Charlotte has with the Panthers ownership and most cities do that get teams(see Oklahoma City Thunder)! Oh well, I can dream, thats free!!! LGNM

[urbanlife]

The Harbor Park point is great as well as the Scope being a landmark of historical value, I agree with both points. Now, about Harbor Park. That is a great place to have a pro stadium and could be expanded. I was thinking. Should they try and expand it now before a team is possible(pro baseball) so when the chance arises, we have it. Could be used for outdoor shows and events until we acquire the baseball team. I also agree, outside of the D.C metro having the benefit of the Wizards and Nationals and the Capitals and Redskins, theres no real concern for pro sports and Im starting to think thats why. The Redskins among all of the teams are supported by this area most. A football team won't happen. Baltimore is an exception due to its history and economic ability to support a few pro teams.

Well, what can be done? How can Norfolk/Va Beach or Richmond get pro sports within state lines? I wish before I leave this earth hopefully of old age and unpainfully, I get to see a pro team in VA. Though I LOVE having the Destroyers of the UFL coming soon and the coach they got is top of the line. I want a NBA/NFL/MLB/NHL team I can support in person. I'll support the UFL cause it's ours and can show if we support it, we can support a bigger team! If only we had a Paul Allen(Portland Trailblazers) or or someone who had billions who lived here and loved sports and wanted a team here and could pay the price needed like Charlotte has with the Panthers ownership and most cities do that get teams(see Oklahoma City Thunder)! Oh well, I can dream, thats free!!! LGNM

MLB will never happen for that region so it would be a waste of money to do any major expansions of Harbor Park. I have said this a number of times in here, if Richmond, Norfolk, or VaBeach gets a pro team it is going to be an NBA/NHL/MLS team, and if it is an NBA or NHL, it will be a relocation team, and if it is a MLS team then it will be a new team.

[BFG]

MLB will never happen for that region so it would be a waste of money to do any major expansions of Harbor Park. I have said this a number of times in here, if Richmond, Norfolk, or VaBeach gets a pro team it is going to be an NBA/NHL/MLS team, and if it is an NBA or NHL, it will be a relocation team, and if it is a MLS team then it will be a new team.

Agreed. The arena route will probably be a good 5-10 years off, if/when the dust settles from light rail. I know that an arena has been unofficially considered once Town Center expands, so that may be the best option, given pigs will fly before all of the cities (or more than one) agree on a plan.

As for MLS, the Sportsplex (originally built to lure soccer) is expanding for the Destroyers. Right now it's temporary seating, but something could be done in the future. I'd love to see the stadium closed in with permanent seats, in the efforts to get MLS going. I know the World Cup was pretty popular in Hampton Roads last year...

[urbanlife]

Agreed. The arena route will probably be a good 5-10 years off, if/when the dust settles from light rail. I know that an arena has been unofficially considered once Town Center expands, so that may be the best option, given pigs will fly before all of the cities (or more than one) agree on a plan.

As for MLS, the Sportsplex (originally built to lure soccer) is expanding for the Destroyers. Right now it's temporary seating, but something could be done in the future. I'd love to see the stadium closed in with permanent seats, in the efforts to get MLS going. I know the World Cup was pretty popular in Hampton Roads last year...

Yeah, they would have to do a real stadium seating at Sportsplex to make that work, but I would much rather see the VB calling that one a loss and using it as a practice field and utility field and building a proper stadium closer to the town center or apart of it to help create a stadium district to attract bars and restaurants to the area...but even still, you are right, things like that would still be another 5-10 years off.

Plus I think MLS is doing things right, they are slowly expanding and in markets that only have a pro team or no team at all. It would be very easy for them to move into Hampton Roads with the area having no pro team.

NBA/NHL are both too big as it is and cannot afford to expand so trying to attract a team from another city can become complicated because they are gonna want more than what they have in the city they are currently in.

[usermel]

Looked at the population figures(not that it has much to do with pro sports) recently and Norfolks metro only has 2-3 cities ahead of it metro population wise with more people! Well, this isn't solid as to what gives an area a pro team as we have more folks than Buffalo does and they have 2 pro teams. That said, I don't know if Norfolk/Va Beach will ever get a pro tema from the 4 major sports. I think the UFL is our ceiling as far as pro sports goes. Jacksonville has a pro team!!! We are bigger than this metro as well. Iv'e been there, nice place but, we hold up against this metro very well. So, there has to be another reason we don't have a pro team ! I just love the idea of going to a pro game in my hometown metro. Heck, I'd go to Richmond 2 times a week to see a pro team! Maybe if Norfolk/Va Beach/Richmond combine to attain a team it could happen, thats enough fire power. Were talking 3 million people who will want to see a team in state and im certain those around the state will join in. It won't be the NFL(Redskins won't allow a team to come to VA)! LGNM

[urbanlife]

Why am I an advocate of Norfolk or Virginia Beach jumping on the MLS bandwagon to score themselves a Pro Team of their own is because this is what MLS and soccer means to Portland and this is how we support our pro teams.

Portland Timbers First Home Game

No one person sings the National Anthem, and entire stadium of people sing it.

Cause this is what it means to support a pro team regardless of what sport it is, and the way the MLS is structured it is very easy for it to continue to grow like this, as well as start attracting better players from around the world that are looking for better pay in pro sports.

[usermel]

MLS may work here. I think we have soccer fans to support it. Question is, how do we get one of those teams! Our area needs a jumpstart with sports in general, well pro sports anyway! Lets wait and see!!!! LGNM

[urbanlife]

MLS may work here. I think we have soccer fans to support it. Question is, how do we get one of those teams! Our area needs a jumpstart with sports in general, well pro sports anyway! Lets wait and see!!!! LGNM

Well in Portland's case there were a number of formal and informal factors in play for the past 10 years that made this happen. Since the 70s there has been a few attempts to get soccer to work in Portland and each attempt failed to bring in a crowd to the game, but during this past 10 years the Timbers had attendances grow and a loyal fan base build from it, which is our Timbers Army.

The formal factors is the fact that Merritt Paulson (son of Henry Paulson; US Treasury Secretary) owns the team with his father owning %20 of the team. So for starters, we have a person with big money to back up owning the team (which out of all the major league sports, soccer is currently the cheaper one to purchase into.) Another formal factor is our stadium, we have had it on the edge of downtown for about a 100 years now and it was originally meant to be a horse track, but never completed so it eventually turned into a mixed use stadium where it housed our minor league baseball team for years.

The informal factors have to do with the growth of young people and Europeans in Portland over this past 10 years, the young people especially are an important factor. If you go back and look at the history of youth sports, we often times grow up being a fan of the sports we played as a kid, which at one point it was baseball that all the kids were playing, then it changed over to basketball and football, but a large percentage of kids that were born in 1980 or later have found themselves playing soccer, so there is a growing fan base for soccer that in the past hasn't been there.

Another important factor involving the young people of Portland is the fact that traditional US sports are their parents sports, for the young people of Portland, it would be unhip to follow baseball, which is why our AAA team had dwindling attendance in a stadium too big for it, yet our minor league soccer team had a growing attendance that was enough to make the MLS consider our city for a team.

We were just there at the right time with the right people in place to get this MLS team and with it we have fanatic fans that will go to every game, and in case you are wondering, the Timbers Army which is the group of fans at one side of the stadium stand and sing for the entire game, it is seriously unreal to see and can easily turn anyone into a soccer fan.

[BFG]

I think the MLS could work, if properly managed. I've brought up before how high the 2010 World Cup ratings were here, which doesn't necessarily translate to a fanbase, but it does show there's quite a few soccer fans here.

I know the Mariners didn't high attendance numbers (at least compared to what teams in Portland probably did), but I don't think they were well-advertised compared to the Tides and Admirals either. In addition, I recently read that the ownership changed quite a few times, and one of the owners was beyond broke...more like bleeding financially, yet was still allowed to purchase the team.

I know someone suggested building a new stadium closer to Town Center, but I think the Sportsplex would be a good starting point, esp. since the VB government originally built that to expand and lure an MLS team. The current expansion is just temporary seating for the Destroyers, but a permanent expansion is more or less dependent on the success.

For some reason, I think an MLS stadium would do better in the suburban part of town, as opposed to downtown, but I could be wrong...

[usermel]

Im certain all of us on this site have done alot of traveling, well I assume we all have. Anyway, when you look at the make-up or DNA of a city and its surrounding metro, I have concerns about ours. 1st let me say I LOVE Norfolk,VA and the entire metro. I was born and raised there till I left at 18! That said, being in Miami and other cities there are always ills that plague cities but, the positives are what attracts a sports team. My point is this. If we get any pro sports team, whats the draw to the metro? Were do the major business dollars come from? I think the 1st order of business has tho actually be taking care of the financial issues we have locally. I think but, am not sure it has been a cause for us not getting pro sports for years. The area is to military dependent! We have a wonderful looking area with good schools and great places to visit like Williamsburg and JAmestown and the historical value is second to maybe only Mass/NY/Penn! That said, Norfolk's metro needs some fixing from a financial standpoint 1st because, if Oklahoma City got that team to leave a major city like Seattle(been to Seattle, wonderful city) they had to have more than we imagine for the NBA to ok the deal. Deals are ok'd based on many factors and economics and the support the team would get was probably #1!

Hey we all LOVE Norfolk but, how confident are we that a pro team can be supported based on the job climate and the pay in Norfolk's metro? How confident are we if we take of the LOVE hat and put on a investors hat, meaning your money, you spend it! How confident? If it were yours or my money would we be certain? I myself have to say no. Im concerned how the military controls most of the businesses that survive locally. What if the military lost the ship to JAcksonville,Fl we keep hearing about? Not to mention, more jobs the military supplies, what then. We need a local economy not dependent on the military to me to support a pro team cause most, not all military people will be moving soon or just there or in Norfolk based on stationing based orders only. I would love a MLS or any type pro team, I would support it. I make enough to go to maybe out of 20 games at home half! Just want the area to step the game up as far as local economy because thats what buys the tickets. If we want Championships we have to pay the best and we know that cost, ask the Miami Heat that and the Knicks! And if Lebron left Cleveland, we know he would have left Norfolk for Miami as well. Its about opportunity and the game and night life etc., basically lifestyle. Its a reason the Yankees get the best players and Redsox, $$$$!!! LGNM

[varider]

well apparently the group who proposed the 22k arena for VB plans to make the same proposal to Norfolk.. Is the city in position to accept? is there any room to build? what are the chances..

[BFG]

I just can't get past the fact that they were willing to put up the money ($350M), and only sought financial assistance in the form of tax breaks. Of course there's more to it then that, but it seems like the tax breaks would've been a worst-case.

If VB doesn't want it, I have a hard time believing Norfolk will go for it, unless Drakkar explains in detail that Norfolk is not on the hook for any of the major payments. I absolutely agree with them that even without an NBA/NHL tenant immediately, money could be made with concerts and college tournaments. We have several ACC/MEAC/CAA/CIAA teams within a five-hour radius, and holding the conference tournaments as well as NCAA first-round games could be a huge revenue generator.

IMO, it would help if Drakkar could get a tentative naming rights deal going as well.

If not Norfolk then maybe Chesapeake...I hate the idea of more traffic in Greenbrier, but that's an area that could have potential. There's a portion of undeveloped land I-64, closer to Battlefield that could work...where they revamped that part of the Interstate with new on-ramps and overpasses.

Edited April 28, 2011 by BFG

[varider]

why wouldn't Norfolk hop on this proposal?

[BFG]

Norfolk has a ton of budget problems with the light rail cost overruns, city budget cuts, and the issue of what to do with Waterside/downtown. Keep in mind they gambled on two high-profile projects: Granby Tower and the Westin. The former is done, the latter on indefinite hold. Their new city manager is looking for ways left and right to save the city money now, but by making as few cuts as possible.

So that's why I say the Drakkar company needs to be as detailed as possible when explaining that the city is not on the hook for anything, at least not in the construction phase. I think Norfolk could be more open-minded, as Mayor Fraim has wanted a new arena and pro team for at least a decade. They considered building one to lure the Charlotte (now New Orleans) Hornets here about 10 years ago, but they couldn't get the other cities on board to help foot the bill. I have my criticisms on a lot of things Norfolk has done (their handling of Waterside being one of them), but I'll give Fraim and council a lot of credit for at least trying to get this area on the map. It's just unfortunate that there's too much sibling rivalry among the cities.

So yeah, I think Norfolk could see the potential, esp. if you put this closer to downtown. But it has to be spelled out to a T that this is all privately-funded, and that Drakkar is not asking for the city's money. Populous (the architects) is a very big name in sports, as they've designed several of the more popular arenas and stadiums.

[varider]

this new arena would mean so much to the area and I hope norfolk acts like the central city that it is and allows this proposal to come to fruition and help in whatever way they can. an NBA or NHL team would mean so much to me and it would definitely happen in my lifetime if this arena was built. I just finished watching the OKC thunder beat Denver in OKC.. I want that so bad.

[brikkman]

how does a 22k seat arena compare to scope (outside it being newer and more update)?

I thought scope was about 18k.. I do not like moderate investments as usually they pan out to do nothing in the long run other wish they built it bigger and better the first time.

I do not see them renting the arena out now for events, they do not do that with scope now. There are tons of things that can be held at scope that are being held at other arenas around this region, that is a problem.

The idea of a new arena is great, I just do not think we have a supporting structure that would predict that this would be successful. We have tons of potential that is not being leveraged, Vabeach is getting cocky because they are coming into their own while Norfolk lets them. So I am not particular confident this will work for us RIGHT NOW.

Entertainment, opportunities are essential to growth (IMO).

I would much rather see them focus on ways to extend opportunities for entertainment such as:

1. Extending club hours

2. Public activities

3. Increase drinking hours

As these things pander to families and personal entertainment.

we can't seriously expect that we drop an arena in the area, then all these old folks, people who aren't use to doing anything or wanting to do anything will come rushing out of their homes and pander to the new idea of contracting a professional sports team? In my mind, it doesn't work like that. We have to build an identity outside of "Home to the largest Navy base in the world". Hell, they won't even build up the waterfront around Harbor Park for that matter.

To me, if this had a gleam of hope, events would be held at Scope all the time, harbor park all the time. The fact remains, something is seriously wrong because the TED is making a killing and that arena isn't all that glorious (IMO). I'm not certain on how local government operates in the confines of attractive entertainment and activities to public venues, however, evidence shows that they do a poor job. I just do not see how a new arena would change anything but put up a prayer.

[mikeas]

how does a 22k seat arena compare to scope (outside it being newer and more update)?

I thought scope was about 18k.. I do not like moderate investments as usually they pan out to do nothing in the long run other wish they built it bigger and better the first time.

Scope holds about 8800 for Hockey and I believe about 2500 more for basketball. You can squeeze a few more in for concerts.

I do not see them renting the arena out now for events, they do not do that with scope now. There are tons of things that can be held at scope that are being held at other arenas around this region, that is a problem.

Scope does a bit more than you might think but a lot of the events take place in the exhibition hall rather than the arena where as at the Constant Center or Hampton Coliseum use the actual arena floor. (job fairs, gun shows, etc) I imagine during hockey season it's a lot of work to break the ice down and remove the walls for concerts and the like which is why a lot of these events happen at the Ted.