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rusthebuss

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High school basketball tournaments also do well there.

From what I've read, Scope misses out on big events because of a) poor acoustics (which hurts concert chances) and b) small capacity (which hurts sporting events chances). I'm not saying this would immediately lure an NBA/NHL/Arena Football team, but I think it could bring in NCAA conference tournaments and first/second-round games. That could generate revenue from the mid-Atlantic, not just HR.

Come to think of it, the space near Harbor Park actually makes sense, if you develop and entertainment complex nearby.

Edited by BFG
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Scope holds about 8800 for Hockey and I believe about 2500 more for basketball. You can squeeze a few more in for concerts.

Scope does a bit more than you might think but a lot of the events take place in the exhibition hall rather than the arena where as at the Constant Center or Hampton Coliseum use the actual arena floor. (job fairs, gun shows, etc) I imagine during hockey season it's a lot of work to break the ice down and remove the walls for concerts and the like which is why a lot of these events happen at the Ted.

Yeah, I'm aware of the exhibits that are held in the halls, but I have to believe more money is generated from larger events. If anything, more bang for your buck. The most impressive showing that I've attended in this area was the live WWE/NXT event that happen early this year. If anything, i was more excited for my son and was hoping it was more people there. Obviously, the WWE makes it looks a lot better than it actually is, but I guess I wanted people to come out in the thousands instead of the hundreds. That's the type of things we need to attract here. I want that type of event to come back to Norfolk.

Fraim making the call to host the region tournament for high school should have been a call that was made decades ago, I guess no one saw the potential. Now that move is only a tear in the bucket because we have the TED and that seems to be the number prospect when hosting events.

I'm not sure if the city controls harbor park or not, but why hasn't been stadium events there outside of them hosting Norfolk high football games 12/13 years ago? No one finds that strange? They just recently in the past few years started having some events in the lot, but like I said, that happened only a few years ago.

I have always agreed with people saying we need to keep scope, I just feel we need to do more with it in terms of attracting events. Cage fighting, arena soccer/football, MMA local/regional tournaments, local concerts (maybe), amateur Bball sports tournaments, step shows, harlem globe trotters, and things of that nature should be held at scope. That is how we can actually gage would is going on with our entertainment in this area.

But just my thoughts out loud...

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1) DO NOT compare Scope Arena with a proposed 22K seat, state-of-the-art arena. Scope is entirely under-sized for a metro of nearly two million people. It seats less than 10k for most events. It's antiquated.

2) The HR area is underserved when it comes to entertainment options & there's no doubt in my mind that a 22K seat arena in downtown Norfolk would eventually draw a professional sports franchise & in the mean time draw major concerts & other events. People in HR are looking for things to do & supporting a pro sports franchise would not be a problem. This is my opinion & I could be completely wrong. Just the amount of interest in a startup Division I FCS team playing Division II schools should show you that people in HR like sports. We have some of the highest ratings for major sporting events such as the Super Bowl and the World Cup.

3) DO NOT compare previous or current HR entertainment options to the possibilites that would come with a new arena. I know if I say that HR can support a NHL team, some of you will say "the Admirals can't even fill up Scope" or something.. THERE'S NO COMPARISON between AHL and NHL. The level of play is pathetic in the AHL.. they skate slow, they shoot soft, and the goaltending sucks.. There's no interest among the general public & the AHL has no media contract or coverage in the national media outlets. Just because the Admirals average 4000 fans/night doesn't mean an NHL team wouldn't average 18k+.

There are 3 million people between Norfolk and Richmond.. You're telling me we couldn't get 22k people to 40 or so NBA games a year? That's well under 1% of the population.

Stop making excuses about "lack of corporate presence," "lack of interest," "lack of supporting income," etc. Build the freaking arena next to Harbor Park and watch the opportunities flourish.

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1) DO NOT compare Scope Arena with a proposed 22K seat, state-of-the-art arena. Scope is entirely under-sized for a metro of nearly two million people. It seats less than 10k for most events. It's antiquated.

2) The HR area is underserved when it comes to entertainment options & there's no doubt in my mind that a 22K seat arena in downtown Norfolk would eventually draw a professional sports franchise & in the mean time draw major concerts & other events. People in HR are looking for things to do & supporting a pro sports franchise would not be a problem. This is my opinion & I could be completely wrong. Just the amount of interest in a startup Division I FCS team playing Division II schools should show you that people in HR like sports. We have some of the highest ratings for major sporting events such as the Super Bowl and the World Cup.

3) DO NOT compare previous or current HR entertainment options to the possibilites that would come with a new arena. I know if I say that HR can support a NHL team, some of you will say "the Admirals can't even fill up Scope" or something.. THERE'S NO COMPARISON between AHL and NHL. The level of play is pathetic in the AHL.. they skate slow, they shoot soft, and the goaltending sucks.. There's no interest among the general public & the AHL has no media contract or coverage in the national media outlets. Just because the Admirals average 4000 fans/night doesn't mean an NHL team wouldn't average 18k+.

There are 3 million people between Norfolk and Richmond.. You're telling me we couldn't get 22k people to 40 or so NBA games a year? That's well under 1% of the population.

Stop making excuses about "lack of corporate presence," "lack of interest," "lack of supporting income," etc. Build the freaking arena next to Harbor Park and watch the opportunities flourish.

Classic build it and they will come mentality!

As I understand it, people said that about a few things around here, waterside ,cruise terminal just to name a couple, but we are not exactly talking about building a new house in an old neighborhood here, we are talking about millions and millions of dollars. The fact is, a lot of the excuses people say/make is exactly the problem with this idea. Don't get me wrong, I would welcome it, all I'm saying is I understand the other argument as well. Let me poke a few holes in your ideas:

The HR area is underserved when it comes to entertainment options & there's no doubt in my mind that a 22K seat arena in downtown Norfolk would eventually draw a professional sports franchise & in the mean time draw major concerts & other events.

Well the problem with that is, for an individual like me, there is no belief that will happen and here is why. Big events aren't the only events that happen and make money. In comparsion, if this is the case, why aren't smaller attractions are occurring? Its not like they are trading off with the TED because people are lining up to perform events in this region, its just not true.

THERE'S NO COMPARISON between AHL and NHL.

I totally agree. But what guage do we have to believe turnout would be any better?

See, the problems I have with this are basic. People are in the business of making money, not making the citizens of this region happy. If anyone has that job, that's the local governments and we know how they respond.

The rules around here do not even dictate that this is a possibility. When Norfolk and this region grow up and stop wearing tighty white's, I think we can really start to determine what will work in this area. The fact is, when people come here to visit outside seeing the beach, they are generally pissed off as if we do not have the basics. The locals have adjusted to this. The coolest thing we have in this area outside the military jets and ships is wellsfargo and the Westin. There isn't anything glaring about this area outside the potential and already stated what needed to happen to push that forward.

Got to crawl before you walk, TOD, neighborhood continuty that urban talks about, housing, etc.. are all things that give us a good guage if this will be successful or not...but that's my opinion.

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Where next to Harbor Park could this be built? There isn't any room. I say build in the St. Paul's Quad to kick start that project.

And there is a HUGE difference between the AHL and NHL. The AHL players are good, not slow and crap like above mentioned. But the difference is the names. Besides a couple of Admirals, can anyone name any other AHL players? No..... But the NHL is different. If Sidney Crosby and the Penguins come to town to play, it will sell out. Ovechkin and the Caps, the Red Wings, Maple Leafs, etc. teams like that draw people. Yeah, if the Islanders are playing against a Norfolk NHL team, attendance will be lower but there are a lot of teams and players people want to watch in person.

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Well as I have pointed out several times, the only way Norfolk, VB, or Hampton Roads in general is going to get a pro team, it will either be by trying to get an existing team in the NBA or NHL to relocate to the region, or try and present the MLS with a profitable market plan about getting an expansion team (which my Timbers are still undefeated at home, probably because the visiting teams are afraid of our European style fan base and the Timber Army....that and our mascot has a chainsaw.)

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You can easily make the argument that any city or region that doesn't already have a major league team would sell out when a team with a "superstar" comes to town. You could put an arena in Fargo, ND and fill it up when Crosby and the Pens or Kobe and the Lakers come to town. The problem with that is, you have an arena full of people pulling for the OTHER team. Who wants that? Not me. That's part of the reason why I hate going to games here in Charlotte when Lebron and the Heat or Kobe and the Lakers come to town (though it's nice seeing Laker fans go home with their tails tucked between their legs). Any team not in LA, Chicago, Boston, NY and maybe Dallas have this problem. People will point to OKC being an exception, but just wait for the day when Kevin Durant is no longer there or they go through some 20 win seasons. Will the fans stick around or will you start seeing empty seats or thousands of Laker and Bulls fans taking their place? Back in the 1990's the Charlotte Hornets were the poster child for small market success by being league leaders in attendance for several years (yes, they regularly put 23,000 people in the stands to cheer for the home team). Then all it took was an owner and a few players that made some bad personal decisions off the court and all the good they did vanished. Then off to New Orleans they went. My point is the build and they will come mentality may get your foot in the door and create some enthusiasm early on, but you have to have a foundation and long term plan with the right people to keep it successful for a small market franchise. Just building an arena and having people show up to cheer for the other team is not. Cities the size of New York, Chicago, etc can throw an egg on their face over and over and still rebound to have success. A few bad decisions by a small market organanization can derail any chance of relavency. It's happening now in Sacramento, Indianapolis, Phoenix, Atlanta (though you could argue they aren't a true small market). Charlotte, while heading in the right direction finally, is still working to recover from the Hornets debacle.

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Every city will see support wane if the team is not winning games. Obviously Norfolk would be no different and being a medium sized metro with no real sports culture, it may even be more susceptible to lack of support..but I don't see the point you're trying to make. when the phillies play the nationals in DC, the majority of the attendance is phillies fans..If a Norfolk pro team is winning, OKC-esqe support would prevail.. a few losing seasons, seats would be hard to fill..just like every other city in america

Edited by varider
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The point that I was making is that in order for a franchise to be successful in a small market like Norfolk/Va Beach you would need a solid ownership group (which is true for any team, but more so when you aren't the New Yorks and Chicagos of the world). One that has both the money (and can absorb some losses) and additionally a solid plan for the team. If you're just going to put up a facility, and have a team that only generates sellouts when the LeBron's or Sidney Crosby's come to town it's set up to fail. Also, don't forget you need the corporate backing too. Without sponsorships from large companies to buy the suites, ads from the team, etc you won't have the money to pay the players and team employees in the long term. Does Norfolk have such companies? (I'm not familiar enough with this area to know the companies, but can't think of any Fortune 500s off the top of my head). And to you comment about the Nationals games, I'm pretty sure they aren't making some people happy since their brand new $600 million facility only draws well when someone like Philly comes to town, and that's because it's Phillies fans. NHL and NBA teams are not cheap. NFL and MLB are even worse. I think some people are missing that here, that's all I'm trying to say.

Edited by dbull75
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Does Norfolk have such companies? (I'm not familiar enough with this area to know the companies, but can't think of any Fortune 500s off the top of my head).

According to today's VP, Hampton Roads now has four Fortune 500 companies:

Smithfield Foods, Smithfield (216) -$11.2 billion annual revenue

Norfolk Southern Corporation, Norfolk (261) $9.5 billion

Dollar Tree, Inc. Chesapeake (390) $5.88 billion

Amerigroup, Inc. Virginia Beach (396) $5.8 billion

Wal-Mart stores tops the list with $422 billion in annual revenues. Exxon Mobil was second with $355 billion.

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According to today's VP, Hampton Roads now has four Fortune 500 companies:

Smithfield Foods, Smithfield (216) -$11.2 billion annual revenue

Norfolk Southern Corporation, Norfolk (261) $9.5 billion

Dollar Tree, Inc. Chesapeake (390) $5.88 billion

Amerigroup, Inc. Virginia Beach (396) $5.8 billion

Wal-Mart stores tops the list with $422 billion in annual revenues. Exxon Mobil was second with $355 billion.

cool, didn't know smithfield was considered HR and didn't know Dollar Tree was actually a Va company...although I was assuming it.

I try my best to support smithfield foods, but they tend to be higher than other brands out there. I would think they would be cheaper considering we are local.

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Good seeing we have some Fortune 500 companies here in any capacity. We trail Richmond by quite a bit but, some is better than none. To get the type of company sponsorship needed for a pro team I don't know the criteria but, I would imagine Norfolk Southern and the other 3 would buy company tickets in the luxury seats. There good for business and just as perks. Man, thinking about going to the Norfolk.... in the NBA or Virginia...... in any sport makes me smile, I am now. I hope before I leave earth we attain a NBA or MLB or NHL team. We won't get an NFL team without a better financial center locally, to military dependent to support the NFL in my opinion. Thats said, the UFL seems like they have a great model for building a league, not competing against the NFL and smaller stadiums and smaller salaries. I hope Norfolk/Va Beach support the team. shades.gifshades.gif

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The Norfolk Sharx have changed leagues before evening playing a game, as Major Indoor Soccer League (MISL) and the United Soccer Leagues (USL) today announced a merger.

USL Enters Into Agreement with MISL

What this means is that Norfolk is now part of a league with 7 teams (or more), with the nearest rival being the Baltimore Blast. It is also looking good for the MISL/USL to have some sort of TV deal. The combined league will be much stronger than a first year league with just expansion teams.

Some local TV coverage:

Norfolk Sharx indoor soccer goes big league

Edited by jeffconn
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  • 2 months later...

It sounds like the UFL is in some serious trouble. They've already delayed their season start date to September (from mid-August) due to financial issues and one can only assume the NFL resuming play hasn't helped either. I saw on one of the other boards that Hartford's team is going to fold. Unfortunately, the Destroyers and the rest of the UFL may not be far behind: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ycn-8830419

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It sounds like the UFL is in some serious trouble. They've already delayed their season start date to September (from mid-August) due to financial issues and one can only assume the NFL resuming play hasn't helped either. I saw on one of the other boards that Hartford's team is going to fold. Unfortunately, the Destroyers and the rest of the UFL may not be far behind: http://sports.yahoo....lug=ycn-8830419

(not surprisingly this damn site craps out when I tried to post my response)

Mismanagement and incompetence are running the UFL into the ground. I've been a supporter ever since I found out about the league, and truly hoped they'd make their way to Norfolk. Now they have, and they're shooting themselves in the foot every chance they get. If this league fails, it will put another mark on the region and bring up more question marks about whether pro sports will ever thrive here.

The only thing is, if and when HR ever gets considered for another team, if anyone points to the UFL, it will only be because of the UFL's internal issues, not because of so-called nonexistent fans in this region.

I bet the Pilot reporters are having a field day with this one...

ETA: Sorry for the excess posts...I kept getting 404 errors, not realizing the posts still went through. And apparently you can't delete posts either...this forums has had quite a few problems the last few weeks.

Edited by BFG
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If the UFl folds this is very unfortunate. I myself have ideas for the league. That said, i don't think they would listen to them anyway,hahahahaha! Seriously, I don't think it's mismanagement. I think the USFL had the perfect model for there league and until they tried to compete with the NFL, they were thriving to a degree. Donald Trumps ego destroyed the USFL trying to challenge the NFL. That said, the UFL for one shouldnt be in smaller markets on a top to bottom basis. They should be in L.A and cities that are larger like Austin and SanAntonio(though not huge cities, SanAntonio has the Spurs and Austin is a good sized city as well) and Memphis and Saint Louis. Cities that have a track record of pro teams working is best. Don't get me wrong, I want us to be a part of the pro leagues but, the UFL shouldn't be in our type market. WHY? We desire a NBA or MLB or NHL or NFL team, the BIG 4. I don't know if it will be supported properly. The issue isn't coaching they got a GREAT COACH, LOVE Marty S. great coach and man for the UFL's new city!

YOu can't beat the NFL with salaries as low as the UFL either. The USFL did what the AFL did and its why the AFL thrived. They paid Namath so much, he dissed the NFL for the AFL. That would be like Sam Bradford or Andrew Luck next year, dissing the NFL for the UFL if they could pay him more. What makes sports is $ paid for services and the model of the UFL is a AAA baseball type league, not a pro league. Yes, QB's make more in the UFL and they have some real NFL talented players as well, its the Santonio Holmes' and the Tom Brady's you need to draw fans. Heck, if Mike Vick played for the VA team, what would the attendance be? If Tom Brady played for the Las Vegas team what would the ticket sales be? The model is good as far as not spending alot of cash but, who would you pay to see, a good rock band or The Rolling Stones who in there 60's do more gigs and make more money than the hottest young bands today. The NFL is The Rolling Stones and to compete, you have to at least get a U2, though not as long a tenure in the game, U2 does have a strong following a awesome music. The NFL has the U2's and Rolling Stones type players, while the UFL has the good players that compete and play hard but, don't draw fans who just want to see them. Get Randy Moss or T.O to play though older, they draw fans! I hope the UFL works but, you need stars like the AFL and USFL(Herschel Walker) had!!!!LGNM

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  • 1 month later...

I know it should technically go on the Virginia Beach board, but I didn't want to start a new post for this small update. The Destroyers first home game was Saturday...I saw a few pics of the expanded Sportsplex and I must say, it looks pretty sweet. The attendance was 12,167 in a stadium that now holds about 14,000. So it looks like the location's not that much of an issue.

I listened to the second half on the radio, and the crowd sounded very enthusiastic. John Castleberry and Indian River/UNC alum William Fuller (who also played for the Oilers and Eagles) did a good job as well.

The pics come from the UFL's message board...the Destroyers won and are now 2-0!

post-25048-0-91420900-1317033793_thumb.j

post-25048-0-69665500-1317033799_thumb.j

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I know it should technically go on the Virginia Beach board, but I didn't want to start a new post for this small update. The Destroyers first home game was Saturday...I saw a few pics of the expanded Sportsplex and I must say, it looks pretty sweet. The attendance was 12,167 in a stadium that now holds about 14,000. So it looks like the location's not that much of an issue. I listened to the second half on the radio, and the crowd sounded very enthusiastic. John Castleberry and Indian River/UNC alum William Fuller (who also played for the Oilers and Eagles) did a good job as well. The pics come from the UFL's message board...the Destroyers won and are now 2-0!

I looked up the team, and besides have Shottenheimer as the coach, there a lot of ex-NFL players who were injured and want to get back into the NFL after this year or just want to play and stay active without the intensity of the NFL (usually older players). I was really pleasantly surprised with some of the names I saw. A few of my buddies and me are definitely getting tickets. I hope this stays popular for a while.

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