Virginia Beach Development

[mistermetaj]

Except for the fact that norfolk doesnt have much of a skyline either. Even with their "jump start" their skyline has not amount to anything past 102 meters. I agree we may not match their amount of total high rises, but in a skyline race of height, it is very much up in the air between the two cities. Dont forget we out number them in population which automatically gives us the capacity to overtake them. Their amount of high rises is also not by any means well beyond what the beach could do.

[Greekboy80]

Except for the fact that norfolk doesnt have much of a skyline either.  Even with their "jump start" their skyline has not amount to anything past 102 meters.  I agree we may not match their amount of total high rises, but in a skyline race of height, it is very much up in the air between the two cities.  Dont forget we out number them in population which automatically gives us the capacity to overtake them.  Their amount of high rises is also not by any means well beyond what the beach could do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

right now, at this very moment, Norfolk has a better "downtown" than Va beach will ever have. you do have a taller building right now, but everyone knows that building only surpasses Dominion tower because of its Spire. it really looks smaller in comparison.

Whats is a race for height? i'd much rather have a "city" than 2 "tall" buildings.

And, Yes, Va beach does have a larger population. they also have double the land, and not much more to show for it.

[rusthebuss]

right now, at this very moment, Norfolk has a better "downtown" than Va beach will ever have. you do have a taller building right now, but everyone knows that building only surpasses Dominion tower because of its Spire. it really looks smaller in comparison.

Whats is a race for height? i'd much rather have a "city" than 2 "tall" buildings.

And, Yes, Va beach does have a larger population. they also have double the land, and not much more to show for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Most suburbs do out number the cities

[urbanfan]

right now, at this very moment, Norfolk has a better "downtown" than Va beach will ever have. you do have a taller building right now, but everyone knows that building only surpasses Dominion tower because of its Spire. it really looks smaller in comparison.

Whats is a race for height? i'd much rather have a "city" than 2 "tall" buildings.

And, Yes, Va beach does have a larger population. they also have double the land, and not much more to show for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's give VaBch some credit. The do have alot of land yet they also have zoning laws in place that will not allow much development below a certain line. Without that could you imagine the utter mess of sprawl that would be in virginia beach. Lets give them some credit.

[rusthebuss]

As much as i don't like the way vabeach is lets try as the citizens of our region to work together. This is one of the problems with this area and greekboy i do agree with you but our unity is important and we must show the cities that we can work together and set the example.

[ace707]

Except for the fact that norfolk doesnt have much of a skyline either.  Even with their "jump start" their skyline has not amount to anything past 102 meters.  I agree we may not match their amount of total high rises, but in a skyline race of height, it is very much up in the air between the two cities.  Dont forget we out number them in population which automatically gives us the capacity to overtake them.  Their amount of high rises is also not by any means well beyond what the beach could do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unfortunately population doesn't decide how a skyline amounts to. It's not like 50% of those people that live in the city go over to these high-rise buildings to work in them. Additionally, height is totally useless if you can't fill the building up. Even if you have an anchor for it, normally a company won't start construction on the high-rise till it's about 50% leased (well that's how Armada Hoffler Tower and the Main St. Tower started construction anyway.) Buildings are too expensive to just build for pride. Armada Hoffler's Tower is only a 13-story office tower and yes it's fully leased, but it is only as big as some of the larger suburban office park buildings. The 10-story garage below it gives it a boost but you can't help but wonder, when you drive down Va. Beach Blvd why the building actually looks short. Dominion Tower is a mere 46 ft shorter than Armada with the spire and doesn't even have a spire or 10-story garage under the offices. It's weird because when you go down I-264 towards downtown, you can't help but feel that building is taller and bigger in office space simply because the main body of the tower uses more airspace and not some steel spire sitting on top. Another thing, you can't have a skyline if you don't have buildings within short distances of each other, a single 400 ft building (actually about 300 if you took off the spire) and a 450-475 ft tall building hardly makes a string of high-rises to make a skyline. And for a long time, Town Center won't feel like a true urban downtown because it lacks the urban feel, character, the history, and historical building architecture that defines any major North American city has in their downtown. Town Center is awesome in it's own right but in my opinion, it's awesome as if I was going to a theme park B) rather than a downtown

[rusthebuss]

Let's just hope that this area no matter which city can draw in some good higher paying jobs and maybe some fortune 500 companies into the area.

[ace707]

Let's just hope that this area no matter which city can draw in some good higher paying jobs and maybe some fortune 500 companies into the area.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Easier said than done. Highly unlikely given how expensive relocating HQ's are. We're better off attracting growing businesses rather than chasing billion dollar corporations to build a building. It's just reality than really sucks to know.

[lammius]

Unfortunately population doesn't decide how a skyline amounts to. It's not like 50% of those people that live in the city go over to these high-rise buildings to work in them. Additionally, height is totally useless if you can't fill the building up.  Even if you have an anchor for it, normally a company won't start construction on the high-rise till it's about 50% leased (well that's how Armada Hoffler Tower and the Main St. Tower started construction anyway.)  Buildings are too expensive to just build for pride. Armada Hoffler's Tower is only a 13-story office tower and yes it's fully leased, but it is only as big as some of the larger suburban office park buildings. The 10-story garage below it gives it a boost but you can't help but wonder, when you drive down Va. Beach Blvd why the building actually looks short. Dominion Tower is a mere 46 ft shorter than Armada with the spire and doesn't even have a spire or 10-story garage under the offices. It's weird because when you go down I-264 towards downtown, you can't help but feel that building is taller and bigger in office space simply because the main body of the tower uses more airspace and not some steel spire sitting on top. Another thing, you can't have a skyline if you don't have buildings within short distances of each other, a single 400 ft building (actually about 300 if you took off the spire) and a 450-475 ft tall building hardly makes a string of high-rises to make a skyline. And for a long time, Town Center won't feel like a true urban downtown because it lacks the urban feel, character, the history, and historical building architecture that defines any major North American city has in their downtown. Town Center is awesome in it's own right but in my opinion, it's awesome as if I was going to a theme park B)  rather than a downtown

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ace, I agree with so much of what you said. Town Centers seem sort of "plastic" and "manufactured." They don't have the grit, age, or diversity of a downtown that developed organically. Granby Street is an ideal urban neighborhood. Main Street is much like the financial district of almost any city. It's cold, austere, and almost as plastic as a town center-like development. But if you're building steel and glass worker storage facilities, why not make them big?

[ace707]

Ace, I agree with so much of what you said.  Town Centers seem sort of "plastic" and "manufactured."  They don't have the grit, age, or diversity of a downtown that developed organically.  Granby Street is an ideal urban neighborhood.  Main Street is much like the financial district of almost any city.  It's cold, austere, and almost as plastic as a town center-like development.  But if you're building steel and glass worker storage facilities, why not make them big? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Big is great if you can fill them up. Companies that own and operate the buildings need to make money off the amount of square-feet being leased/used. A big building won't matter without a low vacancy rate downtown, town center, or suburban office park.

[lammius]

Big is great if you can fill them up. Companies that own and operate the buildings need to make money off the amount of square-feet being leased/used. A big building won't matter without a low vacancy rate downtown, town center, or suburban office park.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course.

[Greekboy80]

Unfortunately population doesn't decide how a skyline amounts to. It's not like 50% of those people that live in the city go over to these high-rise buildings to work in them. Additionally, height is totally useless if you can't fill the building up.  Even if you have an anchor for it, normally a company won't start construction on the high-rise till it's about 50% leased (well that's how Armada Hoffler Tower and the Main St. Tower started construction anyway.)  Buildings are too expensive to just build for pride. Armada Hoffler's Tower is only a 13-story office tower and yes it's fully leased, but it is only as big as some of the larger suburban office park buildings. The 10-story garage below it gives it a boost but you can't help but wonder, when you drive down Va. Beach Blvd why the building actually looks short. Dominion Tower is a mere 46 ft shorter than Armada with the spire and doesn't even have a spire or 10-story garage under the offices. It's weird because when you go down I-264 towards downtown, you can't help but feel that building is taller and bigger in office space simply because the main body of the tower uses more airspace and not some steel spire sitting on top. Another thing, you can't have a skyline if you don't have buildings within short distances of each other, a single 400 ft building (actually about 300 if you took off the spire) and a 450-475 ft tall building hardly makes a string of high-rises to make a skyline. And for a long time, Town Center won't feel like a true urban downtown because it lacks the urban feel, character, the history, and historical building architecture that defines any major North American city has in their downtown. Town Center is awesome in it's own right but in my opinion, it's awesome as if I was going to a theme park B)  rather than a downtown

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said! i agree 100 %!

[mistermetaj]

right now, at this very moment, Norfolk has a better "downtown" than Va beach will ever have. you do have a taller building right now, but everyone knows that building only surpasses Dominion tower because of its Spire. it really looks smaller in comparison.

Whats is a race for height? i'd much rather have a "city" than 2 "tall" buildings.

And, Yes, Va beach does have a larger population. they also have double the land, and not much more to show for it. [/i

yeah ofcourse norfolk has a better downtown. It does have the history behind it and what not, that is a given. Yet these remarks about a better skyline is so trivial. Virginia beach will have more high rise buildings and is already planning on it. And yes, at the moment there is just the armada hoffler building. However, norfolks downtown barely reaches what i would consider high rise buildings. It only has ten buildings above 50 meters (which can approximate to 11 stories or so). So yes, as of now, the 10 to 2 ratio favors norfolk. To glorify norfolk over virginia beach with a miniscule 10 to 2 ratio when it has been around for hundreds of years longer is a travesty. Virginia beach has just begun to develope a downtown and is already comprable to norfolk.

You also say you would much rather have a "city" than two towers. Well i definitely agree with that and norfolk does have more of a cultural and city feel to it. Once again, it has been around for hundreds of more years. Regardless, a 10-2 ratio would hardly be what i consider a great advantage in norfolks favor. In the type of skylines we all hope to have, such a small difference at this moment will not have an effect in future times. That is mathematically proven by the rule of large numbers. If you need proof of that, compare new york to chicago. New York has over five thousand skyscrapers and chicago has barely over one thousand. Are you to tell me that chicago has less grand of a skyline than New York? Play by the rule of large numbers which we all hope our cities attain one dday and you can see how this can easily be a skyline race.

[wrldcoupe4]

just to throw it in (i'm totally neutral on this)...norfolk has under 30 buildings that are 10+ completed. It has 12 buildings at or above 50 meters. Virginia Beach has 23 buildings greater than 10 stories that are completed. The tallest building in virginia beach is 121 meters, while the tallest in norfolk is 104 meters.

[Greekboy80]

yeah ofcourse norfolk has a better downtown.  It does have the history behind it and what not, that is a given.  Yet these remarks about a better skyline is so trivial.  Virginia beach will have more high rise buildings and is already planning on it.  And yes, at the moment there is just the armada hoffler building.  However, norfolks downtown barely reaches what i would consider high rise buildings.  It only has ten buildings above 50 meters (which can approximate to 11 stories or so).  So yes, as of now, the 10 to 2 ratio favors norfolk.  To glorify norfolk over virginia beach with a miniscule 10 to 2 ratio when it has been around for hundreds of years longer is a travesty.  Virginia beach has just begun to develope a downtown and is already comprable to norfolk. 

You also say you would much rather have a "city" than two towers.  Well i definitely agree with that and norfolk does have more of a cultural and city feel to it.  Once again, it has been around for hundreds of more years.  Regardless, a 10-2 ratio would hardly be what i consider a great advantage in norfolks favor.  In the type of skylines we all hope to have, such a small difference at this moment will not have an effect in future times.  That is mathematically proven by the rule of large numbers.  If you need proof of that, compare new york to chicago.  New York has over five thousand skyscrapers and chicago has barely over one thousand.  Are you to tell me that chicago has less grand of a skyline than New York?  Play by the rule of large numbers which we all hope our cities attain one dday and you can see how this can easily be a skyline race.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

#1 "Virginia beach has just begun to develope a downtown and is already comprable to norfolk." not even close...sorry.

#2 "Regardless, a 10-2 ratio would hardly be what i consider a great advantage in norfolks favor." i disagree, its a huge advantage! dont forget that we also have huge plans aswell(prob. more than VB). also, consider the urban enviroment that surrounds downtown. all of ghent, colley, 21st st., montacello (sp?).

#3 "Are you to tell me that chicago has less grand of a skyline than New York?" Yes, exactly...

#4 "Well i definitely agree with that and norfolk does have more of a cultural and city feel to it." thats my whole point!

[rusthebuss]

well all i have to say is that Norfolk is the financial district for the area. Norfolk has torn down more buildings than Vabeach has built and Norfolk has more proposed than VaBeach. Lets not fight and try to talk about the development of this region and what good will come. There will be a positive impact from the town center so lets stop comparing localities and talk about how good this region is as a whole.

Edited April 13, 2005 by rusthebuss

[JPN0731]

Town Center won't feel like a true urban downtown because it lacks the urban feel, character, the history, and historical building architecture that defines any major North American city has in their downtown. Town Center is awesome in it's own right but in my opinion, it's awesome as if I was going to a theme park B)  rather than a downtown

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You may be surprised one day... I was actually surprised the last time I was in LA. I know for years its CBD was something of a joke but it has really filled out over the past decade. I don't think the TC will fill out as much, but for VA Beach it is a decent attempt at something other than sprawl.

Having said that, I agree that the parking aspect of the TC is awful. The newer building on Main Street is built the same way yet the garage blends into the building quite well. At the TC it is poking out in every direction.

BUT... the garage that flanks the Dominion Tower in Norfolk is one of the WORST I can think of! It really detracts from the building because it does not fit in with its design. It looks like an old industrial warehouse that needs to be rehabilitated. Had they built the building on top of the garage Norfolk may have had one of the tallest buildings in the state....

[wrldcoupe4]

I do commend the beach for attempting a project that can combat sprawl

[JPN0731]

#2 "Regardless, a 10-2 ratio would hardly be what i consider a great advantage in norfolks favor." i disagree, its a huge advantage! dont forget that we also have huge plans aswell(prob. more than VB). also, consider the urban enviroment that surrounds downtown. all of ghent, colley, 21st st., montacello (sp?).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greekboy is right about Norfolk and even Portsmouth being surrounded by nice urban areas. TC is surrounded by uhm, malls, big boxes, townhouses and uhm Aragona Village... Not exactly Olde Town, Ghent, etc.

It just goes to show you that there are suburban types and urban types. TC with all its chains and location is still going to be suburban. Just like Tysons is still suburban no matter how many towers they put up there. Nothing wrong with that, but that is just how it is.

Edited April 14, 2005 by JPN0731

[rusthebuss]

One good thing is that the TC and Downtown Norfolk is only 20 minutes away from each other.

[JPN0731]

One good thing is that the TC and Downtown Norfolk is only 20 minutes away from each other.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was thinking the same thing... TC is a closer drive than just about anything north of Little Creek hah hah

[urbanvb]

Va Beach will probably never be truly an urban city but I believe it can have an urban core. I think TC is a great way to begin the process and I am looking forward to other urban-like development around it (i.e. Westin, Cityview, Town Square). For those of us who live in and around Va Beach who appreciate the urban feel, it can be a good alternative.

[rusthebuss]

eventually this whole area will be filled up with a urban feel with the fact of 7 cities competing with each other, that might be good and it might be bad. Who will know but that will be years down the road

[Greekboy80]

just to throw it in (i'm totally neutral on this)...norfolk has under 30 buildings that are 10+ completed. It has 12 buildings at or above 50 meters. Virginia Beach has 23 buildings greater than 10 stories that are completed. The tallest building in virginia beach is 121 meters, while the tallest in norfolk is 104 meters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

whats your point?

[wrldcoupe4]

whats your point?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought it couldn't hurt to throw some facts into the discussion; you know something real, tangible, and factual instead of "we are better than you are." I put it out there so that other people could use the info to formulate opinions and ideas about the discussion. I thought it would add some to the discussion. That was my point.