Virginia Beach Development

[vaceltic]

What does the Hyatt proposal look like?

[RJWGMU]

If you go to the article a few posts up, it has been updated to include three renderings (it excludes the AH one)

[HarryVB]

That rendering is beauitful, the hotel with the 2 water slides.. That would be perfect for the convention hotel.. The others are too boring lookin. The Hyatt would not fit there. Its too blah.. the Double Tree looks like a upraded 70s hotel.. we need something that will be a spotlight for the City.. something stunning and will set off the city with a WOW.. Beautiful convention center and Awesome hotel.. But lets wait on the renderings from Armada hoffler.. They may give us a bigger Wow especially with the developments that have been going on at Virginia Beach Town Center.. Im sure they have made everyone go WOW with the success there.

[vaceltic]

The DoubleTree rendering is UBER-LAME! As long as they don't get it, I will be happy!

[Merrittk92]

The DoubleTree rendering is UBER-LAME! As long as they don't get it, I will be happy!

Agreed. Hyatt gets my vote.

[spiker3]

Hoteiler Eyes Land Across From Pilot Plant

Harmony Hospitality, a local hotelier bidding to build a four-star hotel ( )at the Oceanfront, has agreed to buy 23 acres on Greenwich Road from Landmark Communications Inc.

A Landmark official said the price was between $10 million and $12 million.

The preliminary deal could close this summer, said Page Johnson, president of Harmony Hospitality of Virginia Beach.

The land is in two pieces, near Interstate 264 and The Virginian-Pilot's production facility. Landmark, a Norfolk-based company, is the parent company of The Pilot.

First off, a FOUR star DoubleTree? Seriously?

I'm a bit baffled though. This property is off of Greenwich Rd, which VDOT announced in February was going to be closed off and dead ended. This property is at the very end of the road. The new Newtown/64/264 Interchange flyover essentially eliminates two way traffic on Greenwich, and where this property is, it would turn into an entrance ramp from 264. Just seems like $10 - $12 million for a lot appraised at $2 million and slated to lose it's traffic flow could have been done differently.

But seriously, a four star doubletree?

[vdogg]

Hoteiler Eyes Land Across From Pilot Plant

But seriously, a four star doubletree?

There is no such thing as a 4-star doubletree. We can write that one off right now. This is the real news.

The preliminary deal could close this summer, said Page Johnson, president of Harmony Hospitality of Virginia Beach.

The land is in two pieces, near Interstate 264 and The Virginian-Pilot's production facility. Landmark, a Norfolk-based company, is the parent company of The Pilot.

One parcel is 17 acres, across the street from The Pilot's plant. The other 6 acres are next to the east end of The Pilot production building.

A marketing flyer shows the assessed value of the land at $2.2 million.

Johnson said he envisions building a mixed-use development there, with a hotel, office space and residential units.

"We're working on site work right now," said Johnson, whose company was one of four to submit plans this week to build a headquarters hotel for the Virginia Beach Convention Center.

I've always envisioned a mixed use development going right up by 64 on both Witchduck and Newton road. If we could get some mid to highrises that are visible from the freeway it would be even better. The real thing that has me absolutely intrigued is this:

He updated it to show how a light rail line - currently under construction in Norfolk - would pass just behind The Pilot production facility if Beach leaders approve it.

This would, in fact, be Virginia Beach's first transit oriented development. The fact that the beach hasn't even truly signed on to light rail should show them the absolute power that transit has, with developers willing to retool their plans with future light rail in mind. I think this may be the thing that pushes the council from their tentative support for transit to a more aggressive approach.

[RJWGMU]

It is zone for offices but is right across the street from what I would classify light industrial? Weird... What kind of highrise tenants would want to be there???? I wish they would not build there but go to Pembroke...

[vdogg]

It is zone for offices but is right across the street from what I would classify light industrial? Weird... What kind of highrise tenants would want to be there???? I wish they would not build there but go to Pembroke...

It's really not that unusual to see light industrial mixed in with other uses in other major urban cities (as a local example, think of the coke plant on monticello over by Bristol at Ghent, and next to an area designated for future mixed use). This is actually located in one of the strategic growth areas which Va. Beach specifically designates for this very type of development. Town Center will fill out in due time, Armada Hoffler will make sure of this. Lets not fall into the trap of focusing on development in one area, at the exclusion of all others. If you look at Arlington, their TOD is centered within a few blocks of the line and runs the full length of it. . There is not one specific "Town Center" area, but several.

[vdogg]

This specifically applies to Cleveland street, but it is indicative of the way the city sees the area between Newtown and Witchduck developing.

[mistermetaj]

I'm not sure how to post a link, but I just found this on pilotonline.com:

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/05/proposed-b...-radar-faa-says

Basically, the Navy is going to stunt growth at the oceanfront again. All the proposed convention center hotels will have to be scaled down to comply with FAA regulations. Tey hotel can only be 110' so it does not impede the Navy's radar for terrorist cruise missiles aimed at Va Beach. On top of that, they mention a hotel built years ago originally proposed at 34 stories that was scaled back to 12 stories to comply with the navy. Furthermore, it looks like the Navy will not allow any building built at the Oceanfront to rise above 180', because it will impede airplane flight. I have never once in my life seen an aircraft flying below 1000' in this city unless it was an air show. How anything > 180' will impede flight is beyond me. The Navy is choking the life out of Va Beach oceanfront development. I hope TC becomes a true downtown with corporate headquarters so the city council can feel secure enough to run the city without giving into Oceana's every wish. Eventually we'll have to chew threw the leash.

[vdogg]

I'm not sure how to post a link, but I just found this on pilotonline.com:

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/05/proposed-b...-radar-faa-says

Tey hotel can only be 110' so it does not impede the Navy's radar for terrorist cruise missiles aimed at Va Beach.

Oops, i'm sorry. They were being seriouse weren't they? I read this story this morning and almost punched my computer screen. The freaking Doubletree is taller than that. If that is blocking their radar, how the hell do they operate in Chicago and New York. I don't buy this story at all. The city is thinking about appealing and I really hope they do.

[scm]

I have never once in my life seen an aircraft flying below 1000' in this city unless it was an air show. How anything > 180' will impede flight is beyond me. The Navy is choking the life out of Va Beach oceanfront development.

I am assuming you are not counting the approximate 220,000 take-offs and landings annually? Every one of those is < 1,000 feet, by definition. The issue on the interference with air operations is the extended center line of Rwys 5/23 -- it extends from the base to Birdneck Acres to PA Country Club. This is the path, that under normal operations, with the wind out of the north, that most flights depart on. When the wind is calm, usually at night, they use this as the main instrument approach.

But the issue on the convention center height isn't interference with air operations -- it is interference with the surveillance radar located on the Oceana property, just off Oceana Blvd. For some reason, some dumb *sses with the FAA thought this would be a great place to put it -- the only radar of its kind south of New Jersey, and right smack in a place where urban density would interfere. Don't put it on the Eastern Shore, Sandbridge, or right on the water's edge at Dam Neck -- put it where, once again, the federal government can interfere in the development of VB's greatest asset, the oceanfront.

Someday, the citizens of VB are going to wake up and realize that the cost of Oceana -- the total cost of educating kids that live in houses that have no tax revenue and whose parents pay no Virginia state income tax, of building roads for people with cars registered in other states, and now, not using a city owned property to its highest and best use -- is greater than the measly revenues earned by dry cleaners, barbers, "buy here, pay here" car lots, and titty bars. Someday.....

[vaceltic]

The article suggests that the radar has been there longer than most of the urban development which has taken place in Virginia Beach. I fault the city for not being more engaged with the FAA. Not only does the city now seem to have communication issues with the military but the FAA as well??? Why are people getting boiled about these issues with the federal government? Its not as if the FAA is demanding the project gets cancelled, just lower the height and expand the building footprint on the site and everyone will be happy.

As unlikely as it is, I would rather sacrifice a few stories in height on a hotel I will never stay in, so Virginia Beach and the rest of the Mid-Atlantic could be safe.

For the record, many of Oceana's employees have more disposable income than the average wage earner in the area. Think of how much of their money supports Virginia Beach Town Center. When those military folks retire, where do they end up? Staying right here in the area, with even more disposable income and high tech skills that we can't keep from the college graduates who leave the area in droves.

I try to be devil's advocate about this and no im not military

[scm]

For the record, many of Oceana's employees have more disposable income than the average wage earner in the area.

For the record, VB average household income in 2006 was $75,008. Unless a service member is an E8 with over 22 years, or an O3 with over 6, they don't have a household income at that level. I don' t know the specifics of Oceana's population but for the Navy as a whole, that only represents 3.2% of the enlisted force, and 40% of the officers. Since there are five times as many enlisted as officers, then you are only talking about around 1,000 of the 12,000 jobs at Oceana. Is all of this worth keeping 1,000 jobs that are higher than the VB average household income?

Look at it another way -- Oceana closes, and an employer announces they will replace all 12,000 jobs the next day -- only 15% of which are greater than the VB average HH income. BUT, they want in return -- exemption from real estate and business property tax for everthing they use in those jobs. They want property tax exemption for the housing for 30% of their single employees, and 10% of the married. They want 90% of the jobs to be exempt from state income tax, and 90% of the employee's cars exempt from the car tax. They want the right to conduct manufacturing 24 hours a day, with potential noise impacts well past the limits of their property. And, they want to extend veto power over development plans at the oceanfront. At what point in that list were you overcome with laughter?

[scm]

The article suggests that the radar has been there longer than most of the urban development which has taken place in Virginia Beach. I fault the city for not being more engaged with the FAA. Not only does the city now seem to have communication issues with the military but the FAA as well???

A little history lesson here, from someone old enough to remember (grin).

Until the late seventies, the USAF operated a system of air defense radars around the country -- 68 at the peak, including Cape Charles Air Force Station, right at the south end of the Eastern Shore. Throughout the 70s, the Department of Defense and the FAA had been negotiating to create a Joint airspace Surveillance System, called, appropriately JSS. To create it, the AF closed Cape Charles in 1980 and transferred the duties to a joint AF-Navy radar site at Oceana. Important to note that this installation did not exist at Oceana until 1980 at the earliest. The radar was later updated between 1996 and 1999 to the current Air Route Surveillance System - 4 standard. So, as late as 1996, that radar could have been located anywhere else. It is where it is, not because the FAA wanted it there, but because the Navy did. The FAA is responsible for the operation, but they are a fall guy in this.

[vaceltic]

A little history lesson here, from someone old enough to remember (grin).

I am not old enough scm. Thanks for the clarification and the history on this. I would point out that many Oceana workers are civilian contractors and the base provides work to many ancillary businesses (engineers, mechanics, science and tech) which definitely provide jobs earning close to or more than the median household income of Virginia Beach. And when you are factoring household incomes in your argument, you are assuming that only one of the family members is working, which in military families is generally not the case - and single military members likely share homes with roomates (median is a more accurate measure than average because median assumes 50% of households make higher and lower than that amount). Also, if Virginia Beach loses Oceana's 10,000 jobs, there are more likely to be 20,000 - 30,000 jobs lost because Oceana's 'export industry' typically carry those additional service jobs (engineers, mechanics, science and tech, and the titty bars, dry cleaners, etc) at a 3:1 or 2:1 ratio. It is unlikely another employer will just move in with jobs to replace the base (have never heard of a company in Virginia locate with that many).

As a matter of practicality, the Navy can't just up and move a Master Jet Base to another location (look at NAS JAX experience and OLF North Carolina). It has to deal with the land it has already been given, even while the military must BRAC and close existing bases to reduce the costs of operating the military. The military, with new technoloy, has indeed encroached on the surrounding communities due to the demands of modernizing their tactics, war fighting, and defense training but don't be fooled that the military is bullying Virginia Beach to do its will. To say that the military has 'veto power' over VB's development is ill-informed. Any development decisions now are conscious choices by city leadership to appease the military with land use decisions and compromise and to work towards a better relationship that both the military and the city have faltered on for 30 years.

There have been land use guidelines since the early 1970s to prevent development around Oceana. Had city leadership followed these plans back then (think the greenline for the southern portion of VB, but around the installation) and through the 1990s,development could have been planned to be denser in the Pembroke , Newtown, Indian River, and Shore Drive areas, which I think most of us in this forum hope to see someday. It could have already happened by now! The city would certainly be more dense now had the City followed these guidelines for the past 30 years.

Regardless, I find it silly to argue the closure of the most important Naval Air Station on the East Coast so we can build taller, mid-grade quality hotels near the Oceanfront (not even ON the oceanfront). In regards to the houses which already exist around the base, the people who live in them are the very people who work at Oceana. Drive through those neighborhoods and you will notice how many military stickers you can see in car windshields. In regards to 30% base employee property tax exemptions, the military enters private public partnerships with developers who pay the property taxes and generating profits on managing the military housing off base, all those off-base employees get a housing allowance, not a tax exemption that isnt reimbursed to the city. I grew up as a military brat and I know we always had to pay our property tax so I'm not sure where you get your information on that. So the secrets out, im pro military - - but I think the City and the base are finally working through these issues in a positive manner to benefit both....FINALLY!

I jet noise!

Edited May 7, 2008 by vaceltic

[okinawatyphoon]

That makes two of us, vaceltic.

[scm]

I would point out that many Oceana workers are civilian contractors and the base provides work to many ancillary businesses (engineers, mechanics, science and tech) which definitely provide jobs earning close to or more than the median household income of Virginia Beach.

That is a widely held, but completely false viewpoint. I work in the federal tech services industry, for one of the largest providers of such services -- after spending twenty seven years in Naval aviation. The Navy has never embraced the contracted tech services model to anywhere near the extent of, for example, the Air Force. There are big numbers of contractor employees at Langley. Our company has over three hundred at Langley -- zero at Oceana. Part of it is because Langley has world wide responsibilities as Air Combat Command's HQ -- Oceana has nothing of the sort. There are small numbers of support contract "tech reps" in every squadron at Oceana --- I would estimate the number at not over 200. Your number of 20-30K jobs potentially lost is just wrong -- from someone in a position to have a pretty good idea.

The issue, is the impact on the citizens -- the tax paying citizens -- of VB. It is a little easier to say you "love jet noise" when you aren't paying for the cost of providing services to non-tax payers associated with that noise. Our VB real property tax tax bill in 2007 was $7,353. I'm not saying that to brag -- we are blessed -- but to say that is the amount of skin that I have in the game. You may think that there is no veto power over development at VB's most valuable section of RE -- just propose a building over 225' and see what you get. I don't know what else to call it.

IRT the property tax issue -- the public private ventures are something new. Here in Hampton Roads, it only dates to 2005. But, it is important to note that while the building does convey to the private entity, the land (where the PPV takes over existing housing -- as they did here) remains gov't property and off the tax rolls. Also, that has only happened here for married housing. So, my guess (and it is a 27 year experienced base "guess") is that 30% of the Oceana singles, mainly enlisted, live on base and in housing that is completely off the tax rolls. 90% of the married, officer and enlisted, live off base, many in houses they bought, and which they do pay taxes on. The on base married housing (which I again, guessed at 10%) pays no real property tax on the land. Still doesn't change the fact that everything on base is off the tax rolls, most of the employees (active duty military) pay no state income tax. And no one with out of state plates pays the vehicle tax.

This has nothing to do with being pro, or anti-military. Oceana has impacts on the surrounding community unlike almost any other military installation -- and not because of new tactics or technology -- but because of the inherent training requirements of night carrier landings. Forty years ago, there were seven east coast Naval Air Stations with permanently assigned jet squadrons. Today, there is one. Forty years ago, all weather, day and night operations were spread out and the burden was shared. Today, it falls on one location. The Navy closed all of those bases and centralized in the most dense, urban setting of the bunch. VB didn't do that -- the Navy, which I love, did. Fort Hood, Texas, doesn't tell Killeen what or where they can build. Only air stations do that. I laugh every time the TV stations run notices telling everyone on the Peninsula that Langley will be night flying at this or that time -- never run those about flying at Oceana, because they'd have to run every day! The bottom line is that the unique operational nature of a Naval Air Station is incompatable with a developed environment, and the total cost of that burden, and every thing that goes with it, is borne disproportionately by the tax payers of VB.

Edited May 7, 2008 by scm

[metalman]

CBRE has brochure for a small redevelopment to Lynnhave North Shoppes near Lynnhave Mall. Looks like there gonna replace the longtime closed down AMC 8 theater with a few ourparcels and stuff...

http://www.cbre.com/USA/US/VA/Norfolk/prop...nhavennorth.htm

on an added note- in this link http://www.cbre.com/USA/US/VA/Norfolk/Prop...o.htm?pageid=14

there is a brouchure for the City Center misrise in the "Office" link and Citywalk brouchure in the Hotel & Golf link.

[spiker3]

CBRE has brochure for a small redevelopment to Lynnhave North Shoppes near Lynnhave Mall. Looks like there gonna replace the longtime closed down AMC 8 theater with a few ourparcels and stuff...

http://www.cbre.com/USA/US/VA/Norfolk/prop...nhavennorth.htm

on an added note- in this link http://www.cbre.com/USA/US/VA/Norfolk/Prop...o.htm?pageid=14

there is a brouchure for the City Center misrise in the "Office" link and Citywalk brouchure in the Hotel & Golf link.

Originally the company i work for, Paradocks, put a bid on this lot to build a Virginia Beach location, and we were negotiating with the seller when whoever bought the property put down cash for the entire purchase and took it from beneath us. We tried negotiating with the new buyer to buy a portion (the 10K sq foot lot) but he wanted to lease, we wanted to own, so we walked away.

[vdogg]

Looks like the convergence center is expanding again. There is a building under construction now and the rendering looks like it's about 6 stories. It will front Bonney so it has quite an urban feel. It will look nice being right across the street from City View phase II. This corridor is really going to have an urban feel.

[mistermetaj]

Beach Unveils vision for Reshaping oceanfront

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/06/virginia-b...ping-oceanfront

Lightrail INCLUDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited June 3, 2008 by mistermetaj

[vdogg]

Beach Unveils vision for Reshaping oceanfront

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/06/virginia-b...ping-oceanfront

Lightrail INCLUDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good lord there is a lot of development being planned for this area. Between Norfolk and Va. Beach we've had nearly a new project or plan announced every week for the last 2 months. I like their vision for the Laskin corridor and it pretty much aligns with what both I and scm was advocating. Very nice, and I love that light rail has been officially emblazoned as the mode of transit to bring to the oceanfront.

[supernoga]

Good lord there is a lot of development being planned for this area. Between Norfolk and Va. Beach we've had nearly a new project or plan announced every week for the last 2 months. I like their vision for the Laskin corridor and it pretty much aligns with what both I and scm was advocating. Very nice, and I love that light rail has been officially emblazoned as the mode of transit to bring to the oceanfront.

Looking good. Hopefully those buildings are not all 2 -3 stories. I especially like the idea of a marina district. The pics remind me of Bmores inner harbor.

I also find it funny that by 8 AM, there were about 10 negative comments already. This is followed by an astute observation by one of the readers, however, that they seem automated and nonspecific. Its as if there are people who just cut and past their negative, anti-development posts to any article that is written.