Hampton Roads Transportation

[mlsimons]

Yeah I read that yesterday. Made me lol.

I drive up to NoVA/DC nearly every weekend to chill and I can agree with your complaint. Even though that entire metro area is 5x more populated than HR, we still have the three most populous cities, so it sucks we don't get half as much attention as up there. Then again, the DC Metro area is more educated, and has more businesses than us. We just got ol' Uncle Sam to rely on. If anything is annoying, it's that we have TOO much military here and minimal business opporunities knockin'. Google should re-locate to Norfolk.

NoVa population is only 2 million...our's is 1.7 million, plus we have the port traffic, and no one's taking the metro to work around here, so we have all those drivers on our roads...and we have 5 tunnels and 1,000 drawbridges to cross. WE'RE SCREWED ALL DAY!

[varider]

Goood point mlsimons. We deserve every bit as much $$ as NoVa. I wish they would annex into Maryland or become part of the District or something. There are so many road projects that need to be done.

But I do think they could all be cured with a regional rapid transit system.

[ronsmytheiii]

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=203056723120&ref=nf

^ I was a bit frustrated

[MissySchmidt]

http://www.facebook....56723120&ref=nf

^ I was a bit frustrated

I feel your pain, but what will boycotting VDOT do? And how do you propose to boycott a state agency? Here are some facts for you from the Virginia's First Cities Coalition http://www.vafirstcities.com/ :

The Problem

• The State is falling short on funding for key local services. Examples:
  • $1.5 billion State annual shortfall for K-12 education (JLARC Study)
  • $1.5 billion State annual shortfall for transportation (JLARC Study)
  • $600 million State annual shortfall for human services (Senate Finance Committee)The pattern, for a long time now, has seen the State lowering its taxes and forcing cities to raise theirs.
    • Virginia is ranked 9th in the nation in personal income
    • Virginia is ranked 41st in State taxes *
    • Virginia is ranked 49th in what it spends to provide services to citizens *
    • Virginia is ranked 42nd in what it spends on K-12 education.* Localities must pick up a majority of the cost for education to help assure student achievement.

[*]Translation: State is unfairly shifting its responsibilities to localities to keep its taxes low when compared to the rest of the nation.[*]As a result, when it comes to providing many State services, localities must pick up the tab.[*]Or, in many cases, the services are simply not provided.

The Solutions

• This situation can be turned around by leadership from the Governor and the General Assembly:
• The State needs to fund its fair share for education and transportation.
• The State needs to take more responsibility for human services.
• The State needs to assist our cities with economic and neighborhood development.
• To meet these responsibilities, the State needs to increase its revenues.

* percentage of personal income

[ronsmytheiii]

RICHMOND, Va. - Gov.-elect Bob McDonnell says he would like to make U.S. 460 an extension of Interstate 85 so that tolls could pay for expansion and improvement to the smaller road. McDonnell spoke Tuesday to about 60 journalists at an Associated Press event.

McDonnell has repeatedly called it a priority to expand U.S. 460 east of Petersburg to serve as a major hurricane evacuation route for Hampton Roads.

Federal law requires that tolls imposed on a roadway be used only for that road, so merging the two roads would allow it.

http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_news/tolls-could-pay-for-us-460-upgrades

Well, at least it would get done. Hopefully the tolls will only last until the road is paid for.

Edited December 8, 2009 by ronsmytheiii

[varider]

Sounds like a good idea.

460 is such a more direct route to I-95 mileage wise.

[mlsimons]

How much State funds will be used? I'd rather see the money used for the Midtown Tunnel....that would help in the case of a hurricane much more than 460!!!!

[orulz]

Looks like the general Virginia forum doesn't get much action, so I'll post this here as well.

The EIS for the Hampton Roads high speed rail is published online.

They refrain from picking a specific route. The plan with the highest ridership is, predictably, the one with 110mph service to Norfolk and (improved) conventional service to NPN. However, simply upgrading the service to NPN without building anything to Norfolk is highlighted as the most cost effective.

Even the most expensive option is listed at only $844 million - which includes a 110mph line to Norfolk and improvements to the 79mph line to NPN. That price seems unbelievably low to me. If it's accurate, then it's a bargain - and will stand an excellent chance of getting funded. This is as compared to the SEHSR route from Richmond to Raleigh which is estimated at $3.7 billion.

Since both are 110mph lines, then why the big difference?

Well, let's look at the differences between the two lines:

HR HSR:

• 90 or 110mph planned speed
  
• Uses an existing active freight line
  
• Is a spur line
  
• Fewer hills and fewer curves
  
• Retains 1/3 to 1/2 of the grade crossings
  

SEHSR (Raleigh)

• 110mph initial speed; faster speeds possible in the future (with regulatory changes, new rolling stock, electrifaction)
  
• Will be acquiring an abandoned freight line from CSX and restoring/upgrading it as a dedicated passenger line
  
• Will serve as a trunk for the SEHSR line to Atlanta, Florida, and beyond
  
• More hills and curves to contend with
  
• Fully grade-separated (this is one of the most expensive parts of the project)
  

In NC, Norfolk Southern RR has said that they will not allow trains to move faster than 90mph on shared tracks, but they will allow separate dedicated tracks for higher speeds to be built within their right-of-way. If 110mph service is selected, no doubt Virginia will have to deal with the same requirement.

[ronsmytheiii]

Looks like the general Virginia forum doesn't get much action, so I'll post this here as well.

The EIS for the Hampton Roads high speed rail is published online.

They refrain from picking a specific route. The plan with the highest ridership is, predictably, the one with 110mph service to Norfolk and (improved) conventional service to NPN. However, simply upgrading the service to NPN without building anything to Norfolk is highlighted as the most cost effective.

Even the most expensive option is listed at only $844 million - which includes a 110mph line to Norfolk and improvements to the 79mph line to NPN. That price seems unbelievably low to me. If it's accurate, then it's a bargain - and will stand an excellent chance of getting funded. This is as compared to the SEHSR route from Richmond to Raleigh which is estimated at $3.7 billion.

Since both are 110mph lines, then why the big difference?

Well, let's look at the differences between the two lines:

HR HSR:

• 90 or 110mph planned speed
• Uses an existing active freight line
• Is a spur line
• Fewer hills and fewer curves
• Retains 1/3 to 1/2 of the grade crossings

SEHSR (Raleigh)

• 110mph initial speed; faster speeds possible in the future (with regulatory changes, new rolling stock, electrifaction)
• Will be acquiring an abandoned freight line from CSX and restoring/upgrading it as a dedicated passenger line
• Will serve as a trunk for the SEHSR line to Atlanta, Florida, and beyond
• More hills and curves to contend with
• Fully grade-separated (this is one of the most expensive parts of the project)

In NC, Norfolk Southern RR has said that they will not allow trains to move faster than 90mph on shared tracks, but they will allow separate dedicated tracks for higher speeds to be built within their right-of-way. If 110mph service is selected, no doubt Virginia will have to deal with the same requirement.

Irregardless of the results of the study, we have one large trait that works heavily in favor of the southside versus Peninsula, the Navy. The Norfolk Naval base and Little Creek, and Oceana are all in the pool of the southside. With light rail, the Navy suddenly has a nice infrastructure to move personnel around quickly, definitely an advantage that would warrant support.

Edited December 10, 2009 by ronsmytheiii

[varider]

The southside option is going to be choosen.

Every sign leads to the southside! The world's largest military concentration, 1.2 million residents [vs. 400,000 or so on the Peninsula], the urban/financial center of the region, the Virginia Beach oceanfront, LRT about to be extended through VB, etc.! Nobody on the southside likes to drive across the bridge-tunnels! Especially to catch a train. You feel like, "well I've made it across the tunnel, I'm halfway to Richmond, I mine as well drive!"

SOUTHSIDE SOUTHSIDE SOUTHSIDE!

It's like trying to go to DC, but you have to get off the train in Alexandria. It makes NO SENSE.

Hopefully they make the right decision.

[varider]

Alternative 1 is the best.

The Southside gets HSR with stations at Bowers Hill and downtown Norfolk, and the Peninsula continues it's conventional rail service from Newport News and Williamsburg.

Travel times at 110:

Norfolk-Richmond. 1:27. Saves 35 minutes from driving.

Norfolk-DC. 3:27. Saves 1 hour, 33 minutes from driving.

Norfolk-NYC. 6:23. Saves 2 hours, 20 minutes from driving.

Do you know how great it would be to get to NYC in under 6.5hrs? It took me 8 to get to Philadelphia a couple weeks ago.

Edited December 10, 2009 by varider

[Achilles]

Heck, I'm from Newport News, and even I support the Southside option. Norfolk is the urban core and desperately needs a passenger rail line of its own. It's only about a 45-55 minute drive to Richmond from the Peninsula, and if I-64 West is ever widened, that time will be cut even shorter. High-speed rail for Norfolk would be the best. In all my life on the Peninsula, I have not once used the Amtrak line, but I am glad they will most likely be upgrading it anyways. If I lived in the Southside, though, I'd probably think twice about battling the HRBT/MMMBT traffic (and the insane traffic in D.C.) and ride a high-speed train to D.C., instead. Besides, I can see the high-speed line to Norfolk as a benefit to all of Hampton Roads (the Peninsula included) in the future.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Achilles

[orulz]

It's like trying to go to DC, but you have to get off the train in Alexandria. It makes NO SENSE.

I think you're right that ignoring the southside makes absolutely no sense. However, I do have to disagree with that analogy.

Getting off the train in Alexandria is actually really convenient. In my experience, if you're riding to DC from the south on Amtrak, Union Station is your best bet in exactly three situations:

1. Your final destination is within walking distance of Union Station
2. Your final destination is on the Red Line
3. You plan on renting a car or taking a taxi to your final destination rather than taking the metro

In every other situation, Alexandria actually makes MORE sense. Amtrak trains can take a surprisingly long time to make their way from Alexandria to Union Station, usually because of congestion at Union Station, in First Street Tunnel, or on Long Bridge.

In fact, I think that some trains bound for DC will eventually HAVE to terminate in Alexandria. Already the new Amtrak train from Virginia will terminate in L'Enfant because of some sort of capacity issues at Union Station or in the tunnel. In addition, there's only so much capacity on Long Bridge. Once those are maxed out, but before a new bridge and a new tunnel can be built, some trains (probably VRE rather than Amtrak) will have to terminate south of the Potomac. The two possibilities I can think of are King Street and Crystal City. It would be pretty easy to four-track the RF&P as far north as Crystal City, but I think King Street makes more sense because it's an eaisier transfer to the Metro.

[varider]

If the FTA would fund a light rail extension from downtwoN Norfolk to the NewporT news Amtrak station, I would be perfectly fine with that alignment.

But the thing is, NEWPORT NEWS ALREADY HAS AMTRAK SERVICE! They would CONTINUE TO HAVE SERVICE with the SOUTHSIDE HAVING HIGHER SPEED SERVICE! Everyone wins!!

[ronsmytheiii]

Well its not another tunnel, but hey it might work:

The U.S. Coast Guard signed off today on a project to replace the Jordan Bridge, paving the way for a private development team to begin work on a fixed toll span that will connect South Norfolk to Portsmouth. Executives with the development team have said they can complete the bridge for under $100 million by late 2010. The plan calls for a toll of about $2.

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/12/coast-guard-approves-jordan-bridge-replacement

[mlsimons]

Alternative 1 is the best.

The Southside gets HSR with stations at Bowers Hill and downtown Norfolk, and the Peninsula continues it's conventional rail service from Newport News and Williamsburg.

Travel times at 110:

Norfolk-Richmond. 1:27. Saves 35 minutes from driving.

Norfolk-DC. 3:27. Saves 1 hour, 33 minutes from driving.

Norfolk-NYC. 6:23. Saves 2 hours, 20 minutes from driving.

Do you know how great it would be to get to NYC in under 6.5hrs? It took me 8 to get to Philadelphia a couple weeks ago.

I'm not so sure about this...I drive to Richmond every week and I tend to make it in about 1 hour 20 min. And the last time I took the China bus to NYC we left at 12:30am and got there at 6:15am (5 hours and 45min). And when I went to DC for the inauguration it took us exactly 3 hours to get to pentagon city.

I mean I sure think that HSR is great...but its not any faster than driving.

[varider]

I'm not so sure about this...I drive to Richmond every week and I tend to make it in about 1 hour 20 min. And the last time I took the China bus to NYC we left at 12:30am and got there at 6:15am (5 hours and 45min). And when I went to DC for the inauguration it took us exactly 3 hours to get to pentagon city.

I mean I sure think that HSR is great...but its not any faster than driving.

I used the numbers from the EIS on average trip times from Norfolk based on various studies.. How could going 110 m.p.h not be faster than driving? I understand stops, but still. Mapquet estimates trip time driving to NYC @ 6hr30min. I travel to Philly pretty regularly and it takes me about 5hr30min to get there. And Richmond in 80 minutes is good time. We always encounter traffic on the Peninsula around Williamsburg when 64 is only two lanes

Edited December 12, 2009 by varider

[varider]

Well its not another tunnel, but hey it might work:

http://hamptonroads....dge-replacement

This whole region will be tolled soon.

It may work better for mass transit though.

[varider]

Seeing how easy that process was, it makes me want them to privatize the develoopment of the Third Crossing- I564 extension.. $2 toll, LR ready, and get it done.

[ronsmytheiii]

I used the numbers from the EIS on average trip times from Norfolk based on various studies.. How could going 110 m.p.h not be faster than driving? I understand stops, but still. Mapquet estimates trip time driving to NYC @ 6hr30min. I travel to Philly pretty regularly and it takes me about 5hr30min to get there. And Richmond in 80 minutes is good time. We always encounter traffic on the Peninsula around Williamsburg when 64 is only two lanes

110 mph is too optimistic at this point, try 90 mph at most plus driving to the station/LRT and waiting.

[ronsmytheiii]

Projects to replace four old bridges in high-traffic areas here, including a span that serves as the main entry into town, could disrupt traffic and business for years. But all four bridges have very poor ratings, and three of them are more than 50 years old, the expected life span of a typical bridge.

"We live in the middle of a swamp with lots of rivers and creeks, so we need lots of bridges," said Jennifer Palestrant, director of the Elizabeth City Area Chamber of Commerce. "Either that or it's a lot of paddling. It's not going to be fun, but the highway engineers told us we don't have a choice."

In March, the state plans to install new pilings and cross support beams under the 78-year-old Pasquotank River east bound bridge, a project that could take six weeks.

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/12/elizabeth-city-braces-bridge-projects

[varider]

Hampton Roads' bridges, tunnels, and highways are crumbling beneath us.

We need alternative transportation because the state has basically said "screw y'all."

Commuter rail, light rail, and other forms of rapid transit need to seriously be evaluated by every locality in the region. Commmuter rail from Suffolk + Elizabeth City + Williamsburg to downtown Norfolk. Light rail from Newport News + Hampton + Naval Station to downtown Norfolk + the Oceanfront.Chesapeake needs to work on building the Witchduck-Great Bridge line. Virginia Beach needs to expedite the procurement of federal funding, etc.! Roads suck!

[HarryVB]

I dont understand why all 7 cities can not put money asside to help build a massive 12 lane bridge .. 4 lanes both ways with a lightrail tracks going both ways across the water where HRBT is. and once the bridge is done they can shut down that old aging tunnel which causes major congestion.. It would relieve stress on all drivers and allow transit one side of the water to the each with a freeflow of traffic.. It would be beneficial to all cities in HR because of transit times, commute times and cause a big poplulation boom for all areas of the cities. With lightrail I think one city out of a time should help put money to the side to help extend the line throughout different cities.. like for example.. Norfolk and chesapeake, suffolk and maybe hampton could pitch a few million into va beach lightrail system.. because at the end its gonna be beneficial to all the cities. and once va beach gets lightrail.. va beach, norfolk and hampton could help create a line to chesapeake.. in 6 to 10 yrs we could have all he cities connected we just have to all work together as team because the state is not going to give HR anymore money to build roads.. You have to use alternative resources. We need to think about the future. we need metro system.. We need alternatives and with just having roads here its just gettting more and more clogged. Think Trasit and watch the economy explode with new businesses and population..

[varider]

There are plans somewhere on the HRTPO's website for a "superbridge" that's like 300ft. tall and 8 -10 lanes. I'll try and find it.

[ronsmytheiii]

A bridge will not happen, the Navy kind of demands a tunnel since if a bridge were taken out it would block ships from deploying from the Navy base, a very bad situation.

Also, the Navy will not move from its current position, the mouth of the Chesapeake leads to Washington DC and Baltimore, so the Norfolk naval Base is an invaluable defense.