Rail Transit in Virginia

[rusthebuss]

They don't know if they want to connect us. The state was saying they didn't see spending the money to connect us to the rail system. The delegates from this area are trying to fight for us to get it but it doesn't seem likely that we will. Thats Richmond for you. And Richmond doesn't have any traffic issues and people more and likely wouldn't use the light rail as they would here. I lived there and alot of jobs in Richmond aren't in the city. They are in the suburbs.

[Mike D]

True, which is why i don't understand why every single plan for highspeed rail has it going right from D.C. through Richmond and to Charlotte while totally bypassing Hampton Roads. I just don't know how they can justify that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably Richmond's more central location in VA is why the line would be planned to go through there. With a DC-Richmond-Raleigh-Charlotte line, you have four medium to large metro areas on one continuous route. Those four cities are located in such a way that a natural line through all of them makes sense. It minimizes the need for people to change trains. Norfolk/HR's location is off of this continuous line and you have to have another leg, either from Richmond via Williamsburg (or from Petersburg) to Hampton Roads. If there were to be through trains from Norfolk, they would have to choose between going north to serve Richmond and Washington or going south to serve Raleigh and Charlotte. A through train from Norfolk could not be able serve all four cities. Someone would have to change trains, either the DC/Richmond people or the Raleigh/Charlotte people.

The only other solution would be to run separate shuttle trains between Hampton Roads and Richmond to connect with the main SEHSR line. This is the current set-up that Amtrak has in the NE Corridor. Acela Express trains don't (and can't) serve Hartford or Springfield MA, so Amtrak runs shuttle trains from Springfield/Hartford to New Haven where passengers connect to the Acela and other NE trains.

[lammius]

Probably Richmond's more central location in VA is why the line would be planned to go through there. With a DC-Richmond-Raleigh-Charlotte line, you have four medium to large metro areas on one continuous route. Those four cities are located in such a way that a natural line through all of them makes sense. It minimizes the need for people to change trains. Norfolk/HR's location is off of this continuous line and you have to have another leg, either from Richmond via Williamsburg (or from Petersburg) to Hampton Roads. If there were to be through trains from Norfolk, they would have to choose between going north to serve Richmond and Washington or going south to serve Raleigh and Charlotte. A through train from Norfolk could not be able serve all four cities. Someone would have to change trains, either the DC/Richmond people or the Raleigh/Charlotte people.

The only other solution would be to run separate shuttle trains between Hampton Roads and Richmond to connect with the main SEHSR line. This is the current set-up that Amtrak has in the NE Corridor. Acela Express trains don't (and can't) serve Hartford or Springfield MA, so Amtrak runs shuttle trains from Springfield/Hartford to New Haven where passengers connect to the Acela and other NE trains.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mike is right on. The area is damned by geography. The Chesapeake Bay and North Carolina Sounds are an isolating influence.

[urbanfan]

Personally I think we can kill two birds with one stone. With the building of the third crossing we could run the system through richmond and hampton roads. Forget running it through petersburg. All rail systems are already in place to make a direct run from D.c. to richmond to hampton roads (if third crossing is built) directly to Charlotte. Considering the Third Crossing will probably be finished well before they even finish the environmental studies for these systems.

[wrldcoupe4]

Here is an interesting website for Rail Transit in Virginia:

Virginians For High Speed Rail

The Corridor

[Mike D]

Very intersting website. It looks promising. They're taking a moderate approach and I hope it works. It's pretty sad that there are only two round trips per day between Hampton Roads and Richmond/DC. There needs to be way more than just two round trips. Their goal is five round trips - I think there should be at least eight - that's how many currently run between Richmond and Washington.

[eandslee]

I don't know if this site has been mentioned on this thread on earlier pages, but I came across this site that specifically speaks of the Richmond-Hampton Roads corridor. Check it out:

http://www.rich2hrrail.info/pages/FAQ.html

[Mike D]

That's a good site too. There needs to be more train service to Hampton Roads.

[orulz]

I've frequently looked at the Norfolk Southern line from Norfolk to Virginia Beach on a map and thought "Gosh, if they use that for Light Rail, that means that Virginia Beach won't ever see the intercity/high speed trains that will run from Richmond to Norfolk." They should find another route for the LRT, and develop the Norfolk Southern corridor as a FRA-compliant regional rail line (diesel or electric) and share it with the Hampton Roads intercity trains from Richmond. Imagine how popular direct service from Union Station, DC to a station three blocks from the Virginia Beach waterfront would be! Just get off the train and catch a cab for the last mile or two to your hotel/condo/resort/whatever. By making these luggage-laden vacationers transfer to a smaller, crowded light rail vehicle for the final leg of the journey, you turn an easy and relaxing process into a stressful and inconvenient one. You would lose a very large number of potential riders that way.

http://www.reprehensible.net/~orulz/NCPR2050.pdf

Mostly unrelated, but that's my conception of what passenger rail in and near North Carolina will look like in the year 2050. I also included regional rail in the Hampton Roads area, since there's an obvious connection that can be made to Elizabeth City. Also notice how the HSR line runs all the way to Virginia Beach. That, in my opinion, is a must-have.

[wrldcoupe4]

Hey i found some interesting stuff in the Richmond/Hampton Roads Passenger Rail Study website:

that is as of 11/2004.

Here is the timeline as of now from 4/21/05

[wrldcoupe4]

They are about to begin tier 1 DEIS

[orulz]

Meanwhile we're still waiting for the Tier II document on the Richmond-Petersburg-Raleigh corridor. It was originally due out in "March 2005" but that was pushed back to "Spring 2005." Well, spring is half over, but still no Tier II EIS.

Supposedly in this document they'll move closer to a final decision on a routing through Petersburg. For a primer on the options being considered, check this PDF file out. It seems that the nimbys have forced them to lean towards the North Collier connection, but personally I'd like to see them use the Dunlop/Battersea connection, because that means all passenger trains through Petersburg run through downtown. Better yet, build a connection from the Norfolk Southern line to the old Seaboard Air Line (S-line) alignment along Canal St and Upper Appomatox St. That way, the Florida connection is already in place, and a grade separation under the Atlantic Coast Line (A-line) and a connection to the S-line to points south already exists as well. There's a farily steep grade to tackle there, but the aforementioned "Battersea" connection involves climbing the same hill up from the Appomattox River anyway, so no big deal, right? Passenger trains handle 2% grades with aplomb, and they'd just have left the station and wouldn't be going faster than 45 or so anyway.

Here's a map that I whipped up to show my idea for an alternate Battersea connection:

At any rate, downtown train service is always a good thing, and though I've never been there personally, I hear that DT Petersburg could use a shot in the arm. Wasn't there a tornado through there a few years back that tore everything to pieces?

[vdogg]

Hey i found some interesting stuff in the Richmond/Hampton Roads Passenger Rail Study website:

that is as of 11/2004.

Here is the timeline as of now from 4/21/05

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think they're leaning more towards the plan that puts rail to the southside via one of the tunnels in the third crossing.

[wrldcoupe4]

Interesting...I thought it would make more sense to have a northern route because it would connect more people. What do you think of the "james river alignment"?

[vdogg]

Interesting...I thought it would make more sense to have a northern route because it would connect more people. What do you think of the "james river alignment"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since they "need" to do the third crossing anyway it would seem to be more efficient to go ahead and put rail through with it. You have to remember, all the funds are coming out of the same pot as far as transportation improvements go. They are gonna have to choose one idea over the other, or in rare case, merge one idea with another. To learn more about the rail plans through the third crossing click here third crossing post and here Third Crossing Plan Rendering

[orulz]

I'm not from Virginia but from what I've read the third crossing would be used for light rail, not high speed intercity rail. The two technologies are not compatible due to FRA regulations. If I lived in Hampton Roads I'd probably rather have LRT across the James River than HSR, because LRT is someting you can use every day.

The Newport News area already has passenger rail. Sure it doesn't have the "high speed" moniker, but it's really not bad at all!

Lastly, take a look at the US460/NS alignment. Notice that it doesn't stray from tangent for upwards of 50 miles through a sparsely populated area. Trains could peg the speedo at 110 and keep it there the whole way into town. Now that's high speed rail. No such luck on the route through Newport News - you'd be stuck with speed restrictions due to curves and crossings almost the whole way to Richmond. You probably wouldn't see much improvement over what the Regionals are already doing.

[vdogg]

I'm not from Virginia but from what I've read the third crossing would be used for light rail, not high speed intercity rail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not so sure about that because the overall goal is to bring "passenger rail" to south Hampton Roads instead of just stopping on the peninsula, which has been a major sore spot to many of the communities down here. The main focus of the LRT initiative has been the Norfolk/Va. Beach corridor. I have not heard of any push to connect LRT to any communities across the water. Not to mention that LRT is usually much more of a local transit city issue than it is for intercity travel at the distances that we're speaking of.

[orulz]

I'm not so sure about that because the overall goal is to bring "passenger rail" to south Hampton Roads instead of just stopping on the peninsula, which has been a major sore spot to many of the communities down here. The main focus of the LRT initiative has been the Norfolk/Va. Beach corridor. I have not heard of any push to connect LRT to any communities across the water. Not to mention that LRT is usually much more of a local transit city issue than it is for intercity travel at the distances that we're speaking of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But I think that intercity rail along the Norfolk Southern line from Petersburg would be a far superior corridor than the one down the peninsula could ever be due to physical constraints on the line. Does it really matter if people from Norfolk can't ride a high-speed train to Newport News? The routing between Norfolk and Newport News would be circuitous and slow, anyway - not worthy of the HSR designation at all. The only thing of any value that you'd gain by running down the peninsula and across to Norfolk is direct service from Williamsburg to Norfolk - and that's not a big deal because you could just transfer in Richmond anyway.

According to discussion in this thread, the third crossing probably won't be done until at least 2015. Passenger service could probably be institued on the NS line much sooner than that, with incremental speed improvements happening periodically like the North Carolina corridor and now the DC-Richmond corridor as well.

You'd end up with a much faster Norfolk-Richmond travel time by following the NS line through Petersburg. Just because that's not the route the interstate highway follows today doesn't mean that it's impractical, slow, or out of the way. And going that way, you bring passenger rail service to Suffolk, and more service to Petersburg along the way.

It's also not an either-or situation where you choose between service on the peninsula and service to Norfolk, where the only way to have both is to do it with a single line. The Regionals aren't going anywhere. Why worry so much about extending the Regional route when you can have a new, faster route as well?

And besides, every report I've ever read on the subject (quite a few) seems to brush off the idea of extending the Regionals across the river to Norfolk offhand. That NS route's just too straight and fast to pass up for high speed rail.

Unless, of course, there's something important that I'm missing? Most of the reports are from 2001-2003, and perhaps there have been new developments since then?

[urbanvb]

Well, this is not rail but certainly good news for us. I posted this also under transporation in Hampton Roads area.

BRT approved for VB

[vdogg]

Richmond to Hampton Roads Passenger Rail Study (R2HR) - Tier I EIS - ongoing

10-19-05 This Tier I EIS (program level) is examining two routing corridors for connecting the Hampton Roads/Norfolk areas to SEHSR. This Draft EIS is expected by early 2006 and will determine whether the connection will be in Petersburg or Richmond. The study is being directed by the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation.

Southeast high speed rail

This was updated October of last year but kinda slipped through the cracks. It appears that the HR portion of the line is about to finish up with the Tier 1 study and move on to tier II. I am anxious to see whether they chose the peninsula route or the southern route. At this point, I think the southern route is more likely due to the difficulties in funding the 3rd crossing as well as the time it will take.

[burt]

Meanwhile we're still waiting for the Tier II document on the Richmond-Petersburg-Raleigh corridor. It was originally due out in "March 2005" but that was pushed back to "Spring 2005." Well, spring is half over, but still no Tier II EIS.

Supposedly in this document they'll move closer to a final decision on a routing through Petersburg. For a primer on the options being considered, check this PDF file out. It seems that the nimbys have forced them to lean towards the North Collier connection, but personally I'd like to see them use the Dunlop/Battersea connection, because that means all passenger trains through Petersburg run through downtown. Better yet, build a connection from the Norfolk Southern line to the old Seaboard Air Line (S-line) alignment along Canal St and Upper Appomatox St. That way, the Florida connection is already in place, and a grade separation under the Atlantic Coast Line (A-line) and a connection to the S-line to points south already exists as well. There's a farily steep grade to tackle there, but the aforementioned "Battersea" connection involves climbing the same hill up from the Appomattox River anyway, so no big deal, right? Passenger trains handle 2% grades with aplomb, and they'd just have left the station and wouldn't be going faster than 45 or so anyway.

Here's a map that I whipped up to show my idea for an alternate Battersea connection:

At any rate, downtown train service is always a good thing, and though I've never been there personally, I hear that DT Petersburg could use a shot in the arm. Wasn't there a tornado through there a few years back that tore everything to pieces?

Orulz, I can't scroll far enough to the "east" to see the north/south connection from Richmond via "Battersea". Nor do I know what the "Battersea" connection is. Could you clarify?

I remember in the 1970, Amtrak ran a train Richmond/Roanoke via Petersburg, and I believe it used the old Seaboard ROW to Norfolk Western yards near downtown Petersburg, but maybe it was along your blue line that doesn't go far enough east on the map. I do recall that a conductor had to do a manual track switch in Colonial Heights. Sure would appreciate clarification if you have any further maps/charts or info on rails past and present between Petersburg and Richmond. Thanks.

Also, is the CSX line from south of Richmond to Hopewell capable of passenger traffic?

[eandslee]

They are really not big enough for a rail system to be feasible. Our area is so much bigger than Richmond

It's not that Richmond isn't BIG enough, but our roads are so good and Richmond isn't backed up into a corner like the HR area, that rail hasn't come onto the forefront yet. There have been studies made and will likely happen withing the next 10-15 years, but as of right now Richmond enjoys a nice pace of life without clogged roads therefore, leaving plans for a regional rail system for a date much further in the future.

[orulz]

Orulz, I can't scroll far enough to the "east" to see the north/south connection from Richmond via "Battersea". Nor do I know what the "Battersea" connection is. Could you clarify?

The Battersea connection is in that PDF file I linked to previuosly. The green line would connect to the Norfolk Southern main line (the one along the Appomattox River) west of the CSX "A"-line, rather than staying on the old "S" line alignment under the "A"-line, and connect to the N-S line further to the east. There would also be a connection from the "A"-line directly to the N-S main, just south of the river.

The reason I suggest this is that there is already a connecting track between the A-line and the S-line, and the S-line is on a lower grade, and descends closer to the river than the A-line ever does (which would make the connection to the NS main easier and less costly.

I remember in the 1970, Amtrak ran a train Richmond/Roanoke via Petersburg, and I believe it used the old Seaboard ROW to Norfolk Western yards near downtown Petersburg, but maybe it was along your blue line that doesn't go far enough east on the map. I do recall that a conductor had to do a manual track switch in Colonial Heights. Sure would appreciate clarification if you have any further maps/charts or info on rails past and present between Petersburg and Richmond. Thanks.

After a bit of research, I believe that's the Hilltopper you're talking about. It ran from DC to Cattlesburg, KY via Richmond, Petersburg, Roanoke, Charleston, and Huntington. I'm not familiar with the exact routing through Petersburg; I'll see what I can turn up.

Re more maps, here's another map from the southeast HSR project, showing the alternatives currently being studied. The Battersea Connection (also discussed above) would provide a direct connection between the green and the yellow lines on this map.

Also, is the CSX line from south of Richmond to Hopewell capable of passenger traffic?

Any line can be made capable of supporting passenger traffic, given enough money, and all of these options will require a significant investment. But that route is a significant detour, and the moveable bridge over the Appomattox River could be a big problem, depending on its current condition. Those things cost LOTS of money to overhaul.

[vdogg]

Campaign for passenger rail finally picks up speed

[orulz]

There is a very interesting presentation on the VDRPT website dated 7/13/2006 that shows the status and future plans for all passenger rail improvements in Virginia.

Topics covered include:

VRE extension to Gainesville and Haymarket

Southeast High Speed Rail

Hampton Roads Passenger Rail

Richmond-DC improvements (Cherry Hill 3rd track, Quantico Creek Bridge, etc)

Richmond area improvements (Main Street Station access and facilities, Acca Yard study, etc)

TransDominion Express (and potential Charlottesville VRE extension)

Makes for a good, quick read and update. I like the photo and the progress of the Quantico Creek bridge.