DESTROYED: Providence Fruit & Produce Warehouse

[Frankie811]

Ch 12 news just reported that the old farmer's market behind the mall has just been placed on the national historical trust register and there should be something done there soon. An interview with Ted Sanderson,a historical preservatist, hinted a festival market place, like Quincy Market!

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I really couldn't see residential here, maybe an office complex though. I think this will be a nice fit. Mr Sanderson said, when asked by the reporter if he thought it would be a market place, smiled and said yes, that is what is being planned.

[TheAnk]

I really couldn't see residential here, maybe an office complex though. I think this will be a nice fit. Mr Sanderson said, when asked by the reporter if he thought it would be a market place, smiled and said yes, that is what is being planned.

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This is the perfect idea! We were talking about this a bit back.. Quincy Market, but showcase the cultures and foods of the population of Providence!!

As William Shatner would whisper.. "BRILLIANT!"

[Frankie811]

This is the perfect idea! We were talking about this a bit back.. Quincy Market, but showcase the cultures and foods of the population of Providence!!

As William Shatner would whisper..  "BRILLIANT!"

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http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...indpost&p=27079

[Frankie811]

http://www.brown.edu/Courses/HA0191/provid...ewarehouse.html

[Cotuit]

I would totally love this kind of marketplace in Providence (Portland, ME has a very enviable Public Market), but as I have said before, the site gives me great pause. It is completely detached from Downcity by the mall, and from Federal Hill by the horrendous Dean Street overpass. If big improvements were made to the walkway under the mall, and the Dean Street overpass it would help, but I would idealy want to see something like that built either at the old Public Safety Complex, or someplace Downcity (land under 195).

At the very least, better lighting, better trash collection, and an escalator are needed in the passage under the mall (yes, at the very least, an escalator, people are not going to climb all those stairs).

[eltron]

I would totally love this kind of marketplace in Providence (Portland, ME has a very enviable Public Market), but as I have said before, the site gives me great pause. It is completely detached from Downcity by the mall, and from Federal Hill by the horrendous Dean Street overpass. If big improvements were made to the walkway under the mall, and the Dean Street overpass it would help, but I would idealy want to see something like that built either at the old Public Safety Complex, or someplace Downcity (land under 195).

At the very least, better lighting, better trash collection, and an escalator are needed in the passage under the mall (yes, at the very least, an escalator, people are not going to climb all those stairs).

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I totally agree with this.

The building works well for this, but without serious infrastructure upgrades, pretty much from downtown all the way to Eagle Square and Olneyville Square, it just won't work. But then again, that very well could be the plan - it does fit in the Providence 2020 plan.

[Cotuit]

The problem is, the mall is private property and this market could very well be seen as competition (or, a savvy business person could see it as an added draw to get people to Providence, and into the mall). Which way will General Growth see it?

Or perhaps I'm wrong, is the area under the mall owned by the mall, or the city, or the state? Who maintains it (well, let me state that correctly, who is supposed to maintain it?)?

The Woonasquatucket Valley Corridor is certainly within the Providence 2020 plan, but when asked (at the first meeting) how they proposed to get past this obstacle presented by the mall, they had no answer (just like they had no answer on the pedestrian environment between "Narragansett Landing" and the Jewlery District under the relocated 195 ). All I've seen from them in any way of connecting the Promenade to Downcity, is the "Transit Spine" which they show as going up Francis and around the mall.

Get the architecture department at RISD in on this. Something really spectacular could be done architecturally below the mall (and the highway behind it) to enhance the pedestrian experience, it needs some real vision though. It can't continue to be pigeon poo covered stairways with poor lighting.

[Frankie811]

I would totally love this kind of marketplace in Providence (Portland, ME has a very enviable Public Market), but as I have said before, the site gives me great pause. It is completely detached from Downcity by the mall, and from Federal Hill by the horrendous Dean Street overpass. If big improvements were made to the walkway under the mall, and the Dean Street overpass it would help, but I would idealy want to see something like that built either at the old Public Safety Complex, or someplace Downcity (land under 195).

At the very least, better lighting, better trash collection, and an escalator are needed in the passage under the mall (yes, at the very least, an escalator, people are not going to climb all those stairs).

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Your probably correct, but i thought the Rt 95 off ramp and available parking (sketches) might help.

[Garris]

I would totally love this kind of marketplace in Providence (Portland, ME has a very enviable Public Market), but as I have said before, the site gives me great pause.

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Agreed... This is, essentially, the forgotten back of the mall... I've always been a little leary of the entire "Public Marketplace" concept... In the cities I've been to that have had this work (Boston, Baltimore, etc), they've always been more tourist traps than local draws. This location is, in 2005, really terrible...

What would you all put there to make it work?

Should it be more of a "destination" marketplace, or more neighborhood oriented? Those folks in the neighborhood really need some basic dining and essential services...

Oh, and for the folks here who have been here much longer than I, isn't this how the Davol Sq concept started?

- Garris

[Cotuit]

In the cities I've been to that have had this work (Boston, Baltimore, etc), they've always been more tourist traps than local draws.

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What I would like to see is something like Portland's (ME) Public Market (or the Saint John, New Brunswick City Market which I really liked). It's more of an upscale farmers market, whereas Quincy Market is a food court with mall stores outside.

Here's a photo CoreyPortlandME posted in the Northern New England section:

Oh, and for the folks here who have been here much longer than I, isn't this how the Davol Sq concept started?

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See, now Davol Square would be a much better location for this (especially if SBERs plans for Heritage Harbor happen), but that's become an office building now.

[Garris]

What I would like to see is something like Portland's (ME) Public Market (or the Saint John, New Brunswick City Market which I really liked). It's more of an upscale farmers market, whereas Quincy Market is a food court with mall stores outside.

[Cotuit]

As much as I might hate to suggest it, something that might be more economically viable might be a big warehouse club (ex, Costco), although I'd like to of course see the architecture sensitively done.

[Liamlunchtray]

What I would hate to see is us finally get a great Public Market (finally again if you count Davol Square), then see it fail due to the location.

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While I dont think it's the best location, I really dont think it's all that bad either. Heading from the mall down to eagle square and then down Valley to Olneyville there is a huge groundswell of revitalization and residential development. The population will be there to support such a Market and I think that the Market could then spawn other retail establishments on Harris Ave or along Promenade. The only downside is that is it isolated from downcity, and will therefor end up being a place people drive to as opposed to wandering over on foot. I see this as better serving the folks on the west side of town rather than the people living in Downcity lofts. The only thing I love is that it would allow the building to stay true to it's heritage as a produce market.

Anyhow, I think it would work and work well.

As far as mass market retail in Providence proper, I think it is sorely needed. Personally I think that since North Main is already suburban and full of abandoned Big Boxes, there is no reason not to allow them to return there. Maybe thats being cynical, but there are almost no original buildings left on N main from University Heights to the pawtucket line.

Liam

[Garris]

The only downside is that is it isolated from downcity, and will therefor end up being a place people drive to as opposed to wandering over on foot. I see this as better serving the folks on the west side of town rather than the people living in Downcity lofts....

As far as mass market retail in Providence proper, I think it is sorely needed. Personally I think that since North Main is already suburban and full of abandoned Big Boxes, there is no reason not to allow them to return there. Maybe thats being cynical, but there are almost no original buildings left on N main from University Heights to the pawtucket line.

Liam

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Both points are spot on...

- Garris

[Cotuit]

Both points are spot on...

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I agree, this use in this location have great potential for rejuvinating the Promenade, and connecting the Olneyville/Valley renaissance to the Downcity renaissance.

I continue to have severe reservations about Downcity and Federal Hill connectivity though, both are key.

[TheAnk]

I agree, this use in this location have great potential for rejuvinating the Promenade, and connecting the Olneyville/Valley renaissance to the Downcity renaissance.

I continue to have severe reservations about Downcity and Federal Hill connectivity though, both are key.

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The only pedestrian foot traffic for Fruit Co. would be the Foundry and Jefferson developments.. And some B&Bs up on Smith Hill.. And possibly some Mall over flow.. Definately Waterfire overflow.. For all other people, this would be a drive.. The Promenade/Harris/other street there are like highways.. Even thougt the bike path is there, it isn't ped friendly..

[Cotuit]

Definately Waterfire overflow.

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Oh I don't think Waterfire would help. Unless serious changes are made to the stairs under the mall, and the sidewalks under the highway, no one will venture down there at night.

During the day you're taking your life into your own hands walking from the mall to Jefferson. The traffic coming off the highway flies into the mall garage at a good 50mph with no regard to random pedestrians. And you can't get to the Foundry side, because the traffic light down there is set to flashers, and there is traffic speeding at you from all directions. The only area near downtown that is worse for pedestrians is the Dean Street overpass.

[EPBOY]

Oh I don't think Waterfire would help. Unless serious changes are made to the stairs under the mall, and the sidewalks under the highway, no one will venture down there at night.

During the day you're taking your life into your own hands walking from the mall to Jefferson. The traffic coming off the highway flies into the mall garage at a good 50mph with no regard to random pedestrians. And you can't get to the Foundry side, because the traffic light down there is set to flashers, and there is traffic speeding at you from all directions. The only area near downtown that is worse for pedestrians is the Dean Street overpass.

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Many times I've parked at the lot for what used to be Kamp (the foundry), and hiked over to the mall (to avoid the parking fee). I always marveled at the abundance of broken glass (presumably from smashed window/winshields) and broken light fixtures on the sidewalk around the 95 overpass. The area needs much cleaning up and somthing to make people feel less isolated and more safe.

[Recchia]

Future Enhancement Project....if approved..."Promenade/Smith Hill Pedestrian Connectivity", to help connect the Promenade area through the mall to downcity better....

[Frankie811]

In the Metro section of today's projo, page C2, there's a publc hearing notice of people and businesses that want the city to abandon streets or portions thereof. One of the companies is Carpionato Properties which wants a portion of Harris Ave abandon. My guess is that it is the end of the road where it meets Providence Place Ave (formely Kingsley Ave). I figured that this was coming, but I always thought it would be from The Jefferson people.

[Cotuit]

I've been working on a little map of how I think part of Harris Ave. should be abandonded. I'll put it up tonight.

[Cotuit]

My proposal for the Promenade area:

[Cotuit]

First thing, the passage under the mall has to be improved. It needs to have at least an up escalator. There needs to be better lighting. The plexiglass that keeps people away from the Amtrak wires needs rethinking, it's unattractive. Very interesting things could be done with decorative lighting and an archtectural canopy.

Once under the mall, the flashing lights at Park, Promenade, and the mall garage need to be made functioning. There needs to be working walk lights there to allow people to cross. Rather than following the western edge of the mall down toward the south side of Kinsley Street, pedestrians should be herded towards a new walkway between Promenade Street and the river. Signage, pavement markings, fencing, and other means should be used to make people realize that the path they want to take, and should take is along the river.

Along Promenade Street all the vegetation between the walkway and the river would be removed, the edge of the walkway would plunge straight into the river like a pier, with railings. The walkway would be wide, with benches, decorative lighting, and minimal planting. The idea is to make the river itself the focal point, taking the attention away from the other surroundings under the highway. The opposite bank of the river would be landscaped to give further interest and draw attention to the river. In the middle of the river under the highway there should be some sort of fountain, for even more visual attention. People need to be visually wowed to distract from the fact that they are under a highway. The fountain would also have the effect of dulling highway noise. Furthermore, a lighting scheme from the mall underpass should be carried down into the river itself. Think of lights shining up out of the river, an electric WaterFire, 365 days a year.

On the land side of the flanking streets, walls would be built to hide the detritous under the highway from pedestrians. This would also eliminate the gaping black void the results under the highways at night. The walls would be very blank, maybe with a wash of light on them at night, again, the idea is that the river is the visual focus, the walls are just a blank surface showing that nothing (or no one) is concealed in them.

The eastern end of Harris Ave. is abandoned to give way for a new tower to be built infront of the eastern end of the Produce Warehouse. Instead of angling into Kinsley Street, it would make a sharp left at meet at a right angle. A new bridge would connect the end of Harris to Holden Street. This allows traffic coming from Eagle Square and Olneyville to bypass mall traffic on Park and Hayes Streets if the destination is Smith Street. This also creates a new important river crossing.

The pedestrian route from the mall can continue along the river, where past the new bridge, the pathway narrows to allow for vegetation along the river. At the bridge, the wide pathway makes a sharp turn. Pavement markings signs and other things would make pedestrians aware that the main path turns here. The pathway remains wide over the bridge, and benches would be placed on the bridge to take in the view back to the fountain and the mall.

The pathway continues down Harris past the new Produce Warehouse tower and the Produce Warehouse itself (we are assuming now, the new tower would be a hotel). The Produce Warehouse itself I'd love to see be live-work art space. Where artist could have ground floor studio and gallery space opening to the street. On Gallery Nights we could even see Harris Ave. close down so the artists could bring all their wares into the street for a block party/art sale.

At the Dean Street Bridge a ramp and stair sturcture would allow people access to Federal Hill. The path would continue along the south side of Harris Ave to Eagle Square. A wall would seperate the path from the highway and the railroad tracks past Dean Street. Harris Ave. would also feature bikelanes. The paths along the river would remain, but Harris Avenue is actually the most direct route from Eagle Square to the mall and as such should develop into a strong retail corridor with neighbourhood service establishments for area residents.

[gregw]

The Produce Warehouse tower? Hmm, maybe it should have the shape of a giant carrot. In all seriousness though I think Cotuit should be appointed chief planner of the city cause he definitely has vision.

First thing, the passage under the mall has to be improved. It needs to have at least an up escalator. There needs to be better lighting. The plexiglass that keeps people away from the Amtrak wires needs rethinking, it's unattractive. Very interesting things could be done with decorative lighting and an archtectural canopy.

Once under the mall, the flashing lights at Park, Promenade, and the mall garage need to be made functioning. There needs to be working walk lights there to allow people to cross. Rather than following the western edge of the mall down toward the south side of Kinsley Street, pedestrians should be herded towards a new walkway between Promenade Street and the river. Signage, pavement markings, fencing, and other means should be used to make people realize that the path they want to take, and should take is along the river.

Along Promenade Street all the vegetation between the walkway and the river would be removed, the edge of the walkway would plunge straight into the river like a pier, with railings. The walkway would be wide, with benches, decorative lighting, and minimal planting. The idea is to make the river itself the focal point, taking the attention away from the other surroundings under the highway. The opposite bank of the river would be landscaped to give further interest and draw attention to the river. In the middle of the river under the highway there should be some sort of fountain, for even more visual attention. People need to be visually wowed to distract from the fact that they are under a highway. The fountain would also have the effect of dulling highway noise. Furthermore, a lighting scheme from the mall underpass should be carried down into the river itself. Think of lights shining up out of the river, an electric WaterFire, 365 days a year.

On the land side of the flanking streets, walls would be built to hide the detritous under the highway from pedestrians. This would also eliminate the gaping black void the results under the highways at night. The walls would be very blank, maybe with a wash of light on them at night, again, the idea is that the river is the visual focus, the walls are just a blank surface showing that nothing (or no one) is concealed in them.

The eastern end of Harris Ave. is abandoned to give way for a new tower to be built infront of the eastern end of the Produce Warehouse. Instead of angling into Kinsley Street, it would make a sharp left at meet at a right angle. A new bridge would connect the end of Harris to Holden Street. This allows traffic coming from Eagle Square and Olneyville to bypass mall traffic on Park and Hayes Streets if the destination is Smith Street. This also creates a new important river crossing.

The pedestrian route from the mall can continue along the river, where past the new bridge, the pathway narrows to allow for vegetation along the river. At the bridge, the wide pathway makes a sharp turn. Pavement markings signs and other things would make pedestrians aware that the main path turns here. The pathway remains wide over the bridge, and benches would be placed on the bridge to take in the view back to the fountain and the mall.

The pathway continues down Harris past the new Produce Warehouse tower and the Produce Warehouse itself (we are assuming now, the new tower would be a hotel). The Produce Warehouse itself I'd love to see be live-work art space. Where artist could have ground floor studio and gallery space opening to the street. On Gallery Nights we could even see Harris Ave. close down so the artists could bring all their wares into the street for a block party/art sale.

At the Dean Street Bridge a ramp and stair sturcture would allow people access to Federal Hill. The path would continue along the south side of Harris Ave to Eagle Square. A wall would seperate the path from the highway and the railroad tracks past Dean Street. Harris Ave. would also feature bikelanes. The paths along the river would remain, but Harris Avenue is actually the most direct route from Eagle Square to the mall and as such should develop into a strong retail corridor with neighbourhood service establishments for area residents.

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[Garris]

I need to study this in more detail later, but at first blush, it appears brilliant. I would seriously forward this feedback to the Prov 2020 group, Cotuit. It's light years ahead of anything they have planned for the area.

- Garris