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Watson Hill neighborhood development


Charleston native

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It's REALLY heating up now. Did you guys know that N. Charleston is planning on taking the city of Charleston to court over the Watson Hill development? Read about it here. "The notice claims Charleston's annexation 'violates the laws and policies of the State of South Carolina.'"

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There is a on-going study to look at city-county consolidation now. County Councilman Tim Scott is working a citizens group from the area municipalties to look at ways to merge city and county services. All three major municipalty mayors are in fovor of this effort. there is alot of duplicated services in Charleston now. North Charleston has already merged some services with the county and it is expected that Charleston City and Mount Pleasant will follow suit as well. Riley has been noted in saying that a Charleston-North Charleston consolidation can be seen in a foreseeable future. Citizens are stating that the area is resembling the Hampton Roads area in Virginia with so many major municipalities in one area. Charleston Metro now holds more major SC cities than any other area of the state with Charleston, North Charleston, Mount Pleasant, Summerville and Goose Creek all over 33,000 residents. Although Summerville and Goose Creek wouldn't be involved with the Consolidation effort, they would still benefit in a regional planning effort.

News Radio in Charleston reported latest population predictions:

Charleston (city) 110,000

North Charlestob 87,000

Mount Pleasant 64,000

Summerville 35,000

Goose Creek 34,000

Hanahan 20,000

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This is a great area,and people want to come here, but they need places to live, shop, etc when they arrive....where are those places going to be, since noone wants anyone to build anything anywhere anymore???.... :)

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I don't think people in Charleston are completely anti-development, but many are against bad, hasty development. I won't go into the whole New Urbanism philosophy, since there are plenty of forums on this board where you can read all about it, but basically, you won't see anybody complaining about developments such as Magnolia, Noisette, I'On, or Dewees Island. These first three developments enhance the urban fabric of Charleston, instead of replicating the traffic-clogged suburban nightmare that you can see in most of Mt. Pleasant. Or in the case of Dewees Island, the developers have taken great care to preserve the natural beauty and environmental integrity of the island.

Most Charlestonians want the city to develop in a way that protects its charm and livability, not just add generic "places to live." And why do people want to move here? Because Charleston is a great place. If the city becomes a Little Atlanta by the Sea, we'll see a lot of talented newcomers find other cities to live in. Personally, I'd rather see Charleston be one of the first cities to develop in a new, progressive way, rather than one of the last to develop in the old, wrong way.

-Lee

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I don't think people in Charleston are completely anti-development, but many are against bad, hasty development. I won't go into the whole New Urbanism philosophy, since there are plenty of forums on this board where you can read all about it, but basically, you won't see anybody complaining about developments such as Magnolia, Noisette, I'On, or Dewees Island. These first three developments enhance the urban fabric of Charleston, instead of replicating the traffic-clogged suburban nightmare that you can see in most of Mt. Pleasant. Or in the case of Dewees Island, the developers have taken great care to preserve the natural beauty and environmental integrity of the island.

      Most Charlestonians want the city to develop in a way that protects its charm and livability, not just add generic "places to live." And why do people want to move here? Because Charleston is a great place. If the city becomes a Little Atlanta by the Sea, we'll see a lot of talented newcomers find other cities to live in. Personally, I'd rather see Charleston be one of the first cities to develop in a new, progressive way, rather than one of the last to develop in the old, wrong way.

                                                                          -Lee

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Again...the staffs of the municipalities don't have a problem with these developments, but the citizens certainly do. I'on is water nder the bridge and is virtually built out....But developments like Carolina Park (Marino Tract) which were arguably TND type designs still met with heavy resisitance. There is nothing bad or hasty about that development. They complain about the location, but it is not as far out as Charleston National. I was involved with a small INFILL project on James Island. We worked carefully with the CIty of Charleston on the layout and design, and they were all for it. But the citizens came up with every excuse they could from traffic to drainage to say NO. What should have been a simple and good project was dragged out for a year.

So while I agree w in principal with what you are saying, what I see from the populace at large is first they decide they are against development, then they decide why.

Also, the traffic problems Charleston sees are common to "Beach towns" where limited land mass and a constricted road system leads to choke points. There are only two ways into Mt Pleasant, so undoubtedly, there will be traffic.

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Again...the staffs of the municipalities don't have a problem with these developments, but the citizens certainly do.  I'on is water nder the bridge and is virtually built out....But developments like Carolina Park (Marino Tract) which were arguably TND type designs still met with heavy resisitance.

It's good to hear from someone who's directly involved with development in Charleston, but I have to argue with a few of your points. First, the municipality of Mt. Pleasant opposed Carolina Park (to the best of my memory). They had serious concerns about being able to supply infrastructure to such a huge development, and they also wanted the north side of Mt. Pleasant to be a transition zone between the suburbs and (what's left up there of) the country. Charleston County basically undercut them by approving the development, and it was only recently that Mt. Pleasant agreed to supply the developers with an extension of the waterline.

I was involved with a small  INFILL project on James Island.  We worked carefully with the CIty of Charleston on the layout and design, and they were all for it.  But the citizens came up with every excuse they could from traffic to drainage to say NO.  What should have been a simple and good project was dragged out for a year. 
Yeh, James Island is tricky... There's a great book called Suburban Nation by Andre Duany (who by the way is the New Urbanist planner in charge of the Bull Street project in Columbia). In the prologue, he basically creates this fictional home owner who's upset that the only remaining large, wooded tract near his neighborhood is now being developed. The home owner is afraid of the added traffic to the already overburdened roads, and he's afraid of what the development will be... "It will be sprawl," the homeowner thinks, "Cookie-cutter houses, wide, treeless sidewalk-free roadways, mindlessly curving cul-de-sacs, a streetscape of garage doors- a beige vinyl parody of Leave It to Beaver." The irony is, of course, that the homeowner's own neighborhood probably looks like this too. He just doesn't want any more of it.

And I think that's what's happening in James Island. It's neither city nor country. There's nice yards, azaleas that flower in the springtime, and a few live oak-lined streets, all that nice stuff, but there's very little _real_ rural space left, so people cling to the little wooded lots they have left. Those lots are probably where their children play and have contact with the outdoors, for instance. And of course, it goes without saying they're afraid of more cars on Folly Road. Who wouldn't be?

The problem is, a place like James Island, while close to the Peninsula, doesn't offer the amenities of the city. You can't walk to stores, or to your local bar, or to your childrens' school. You have to drive, and drive through neighborhoods that look more or less the same. So when there's new development, people don't think: "There's going to be more neighbors, more community, more options of things to do." They think instead: more traffic, less green space, another parking lot next to a big box store, basically_less_ of a feeling of community.

Also, the traffic problems Charleston sees are common to "Beach towns" where limited land mass and a constricted road system leads to choke points. There are only two ways into Mt Pleasant, so undoubtedly, there will be traffic.

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I'm tempted to take your word on this, but I don't see it happening this way while I drive, and I drive all over the metro area for work, so I know all about the roads at certain times of day. I don't see the choke points being only at the bridges and causeways. Folly Road is basically a parking lot for six hours a day. Yes, coming off the Connector from downtown is a pain at rush hour, but it doesn't get much better once you're on the island.

I'm sure geographical choke points play a role in creating bad traffic, but there are other factors too. (BTW, I've spent time in suburbs far from the coast, and the traffic isn't much better there). One factor is that the design of subdivisions usually forces all traffic onto one road. On James Island, this is definitely Folly Road. One way to solve this is to have interconnected streets (think a grid, its the simplest design). This way, people can chose different routes to get to the same place. This spreads traffic out, lets people drive around accidents, and in my opinion, makes driving more fun.

The other way to alleviate traffic is to build housing close to shops, restaurants, schools, etc. That way, people don't have to drive large distances to eat or shop. For example, the bar my wife and I hangout at is within walking distance from our house. If they add a few more restaurants to our neighborhood, those will likely be where we eat the most. We don't have to drive to the Mall, basically.

These last two points on how to ease traffic are tenets of New Urbanist design. The problem with Watson Hill is that it will absolutely force people to drive a long distance, either to Charleston or Summerville. Anyone who drives on Hwy 61 knows that it's already one of the worst places to be during rush hour. The Glenn McConnell Parkway didn't really help much to solve existing gridlock (based on traffic studies). This is because developments tend to use whatever "extra" traffic capacity is created by new highways that were built to deal with old problems.

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There is a on-going study to look at city-county consolidation now. County Councilman Tim Scott is working a citizens group from the area municipalties to look at ways to merge city and county services.  All three major municipalty mayors are in fovor of this effort.  there is alot of duplicated services in Charleston now.  North Charleston has already merged some services with the county and it is expected that Charleston City and Mount Pleasant will follow suit as well.  Riley has been noted in saying that a Charleston-North Charleston consolidation can be seen in a foreseeable future.  Citizens are stating that the area is resembling the Hampton Roads area in Virginia with so many major municipalities in one area.  Charleston Metro now holds more major SC cities than any other area of the state with Charleston, North Charleston, Mount Pleasant, Summerville and Goose Creek all over 33,000 residents.  Although Summerville and Goose Creek wouldn't be involved with the Consolidation effort, they would still benefit in a regional planning effort...

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Dude, Randy, where did you find this out? News Radio in Charleston? Was it a radio station? What station? That is fantastic news, and that might subdue the controversy going on with Watson Hill! I don't know about Mt. Pleasant merging with the other 2 major cities, but it is a very interesting proposition. My question is: would the merger combine all municipalilties into one city of Charleston? Or would it be a merger that included the other names...such as Charleston-N. Charleston-Mt. Pleasant? :sick: I don't like the latter very much!

I also agree with Randy's comments on the older generation being anti-growth. Since I grew up there, I am very familiar with many older people who really have an anti-city mentality, yet they still want all the conveniences and amenities that a city has to offer. IMO, they are being hypocritical because in reality, you can't have your cake and eat it too. The same thing applies to people on James Island. They have complained about how the city annexations ruined the rural character of the island, but in fact, many of the developed areas and neighborhoods were OUTSIDE the city limits when James Island started to be built up. They need to blame the county, not the city, and they also need to realize that they are in a growing, booming city that is coming into prominence.

I do disagree that James Island does not offer amenities of the city. Ironically, many amenities are provided by the city of Charleston such as marinas, golf courses, public tennis courts, soccer fields, parks, and swimming pools. There is a good variety of restaurants and shopping...the universal truth is that James Island is a bedroom community in Charleston. With all of this in mind, it makes sense that the entirety of James Island should be in the city limits.

If anti-city people on the island still want rural, country living, I have a great suggestion: MOVE! Move out to rural counties such as Colleton, Dillon, Marion, and Marlboro...sheesh, they need the influx for their economies! You can't be in or near a city and expect many places to continue to be rural in nature. Especially when the city is such an attractive place to live.

As more companies move in and younger generations call Charleston home, the "old-corps" mentality will diminish significantly. Charleston has realized it didn't keep its people that grew up there as kids and are now young adults. Many of my friends from high school and college moved away from my hometown because it didn't provide the high-paying jobs and solid city growth. Now, the city is changing for the better.

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For some reason, I think that if a city-county consolidation occurred in Charleston County, N. Charleston and Mt. Pleasant would want to remain their own municipalities within the county, much like Atlantic Beach and Neptune Beach in Jacksonville-Duval.

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For some reason, I think that if a city-county consolidation occurred in Charleston County, N. Charleston and Mt. Pleasant would want to remain their own municipalities within the county, much like Atlantic Beach and Neptune Beach in Jacksonville-Duval.

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I don't know about that. In Jax's case, those were beach towns completely separated by forest and the intercoastal waterway. Believe it or not, there are many people who would prefer a consolidation of at least Charleston and N. Charleston. Some people in Mt. Pleasant have even voiced their approval.

I think if a consolidation is to occur, it will NOT be the entire county. The entities that WOULD merge are Charleston, N. Chuck, possibly Mt. Pleasant, St. Andrews PSD (rest of West Ashley), possibly James Island PSD (pending the news about the pseudo-town's organizers gearing up again), and a segment of Johns Island. The small beach towns such as Edisto and Kiawah Island, Isle of Palms, Sullivan's Island, and Folly Beach would remain...like the beach towns in Jax. Geographically, their situation is similar; they are separated from Charleston by marsh and the Intercoastal Waterway.

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And the drama continues :) It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. It doesn't look like Charleston ahve done anything illegal, though some might view it as udnerhanded. Is anyone out there on North Charleston's side of this arguement?

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And the drama continues :) It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. It doesn't look like Charleston ahve done anything illegal, though some might view it as udnerhanded. Is anyone out there on North Charleston's side of this arguement?

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I wouldn't say I'm on North chuck's side, but I do find it hypocrital on the part of Summerville and Charleston to resist development in that area. By the way, the resistance to N. Charleston annexing it is primary because all indications are that N. Charleton will allow the development. Charleston also has an interest in the N. Chas boundaries being confined. Nevertheless, the prime arguments against the development are: 1: it will unduly burden Hwy 61 with 50,000 vehicle trips per day; 2: it will detroy the rural characteristics of the area; and 3: iit will destroy the Ashley River Preservation District.

But here are some little know (or conviently overlooked) facts with regard to these points.

1. The build out of the development is dependent upon the extension of the Glenn McConnell Pkwy. Without the extension of that road, the development would likely stall out after the 400 homee first phase. Also the 50,000 number is hightly exagerrated. The actual number would be on the order of 18,000 per day, and there is no indication that all of those vehicles would end up on Hwy 61. The droves of developments in the Knightsville area will add many more cars to hwy 61 as well..

2. The City of Charleston has already allowed development to the southen edge of the plantation district. Some of that development is still ongoing. Dorchester County is contiinuting to allow the Development of Legend Oaks and other developments just a mile or so up Hwy 61. Dorchester School Distirict 2 is planning a new high school near the corner of Hwy 165 and Hwy 61 (right were Watson Hill is proposed). So development is occuring in the area and will continue to occur.

3. The scenic drive on Hwy 61 with canopy of oaks extends maybe 50' from the highway. Beyond that, the property is all yong pine trees (the property was owned by Mead Westvaco) So what exactly are they "preserving".

The truth is that alot of residents in the Charleston area are opposed to any more development. And any reason is a good reason to oppose more development. Certainly the reisdents have the right to voice their opinion and exert pressure on the elected officials. And there is a reasonable expectation that zoning be appropriate and benefit the community more than it harms it. But what gets my goat is that alot of the people complaining here , live in these recently (relatively) developed subdivisions and are opposing the same type of development that they live in.

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You make some very good points, Infinite1. As a matter of fact, I totally agree with just about everything you've said. Many people in my hometown have a tendency to be selfish. Once they've built their little castle on their pristine land, they don't want anybody else to come in because they would have to share the benefits and pleasure of living in one of the best cities in the U.S.

Again, I say to all of these NIMBYs who don't want more development: MOVE!! Move away from the city and buy some land in rural Dorchester or Colleton County to keep other people from building right next to you. What many people there don't understand is that future development projects are an inherent characteristic when living in a city. If the city is to grow and thrive economically, it must be able to add more development.

After studying the Watson Hill proposal, I believe that it is a reasonable development that will preserve the historical nature of the district because the project in its entirety will take 15-20 years to complete. That being said, I still oppose N. Charleston annexing the tract of land...not for reasons involving the actual development, but for the mere fact that N. Chuck is a suburb, not the county seat or primary city of the metro area. It should concentrate on improving its current dilapidated areas (which are many in number) instead of trying to take in more land. N. Chuck should realize that people are against the city annexing the area because they do not have a good reputation of smart urban planning.

Many of you know, I don't want N. Charleston to annex the land because I still think the city should not exist and be merged into Charleston. Then Charleston would have annexation powers, and the project would have more scrutiny and planned better.

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Oh boy, the saga continues. Summerville has sued the north city and has requested a restraining order and permanent injunction aimed at stopping N. Chuck from completing the annexation of the large tract known as Watson Hill. Summerville filed a lawsuit asking that its annexation of property along S.C. Highway 61 be validated.

What's happening is that both cities are annexing the Barry tract at the same time. The Barry tract, if annexed by the north city, would be their entry way onto West Ashley to annex the mega Watson Hill tract. S'ville is saying that since they acted first for annexation of the property, they get the land, thereby blocking the north city to annex Watson. According to an attorney in the article link below, this is normal procedure when 2 cities are trying to annex the same property. Looks like the town is good to go, but selfish politician Mayor Summey is going to fight it...further wasting tax dollars. :sick:

Summerville sues N. Chuck

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In the article which you can link to below, the developers of Watson Hill have proposed a plan which reduces its scope significantly, and well, I think this is an excellent compromise. I feel much better about it, and I think the residents in S'ville should be satisfied with this plan. The developers gave Dorchester County plans for construction of 1,000 homes which are 3,300 fewer than originally proposed. That sounds so much better! More homes would only be proposed in the future if new roads that have been planned are built...this will be many years into the future, supposedly.

The revised plan calls for about 1,000 dwellings in a mixture of townhouses, condominiums and single-family homes. Developers also want to build a five-star hotel with about 200 rooms on the 6,647-acre tract; the hotel is part of the original plans. This really is a great compromise.

I have several concerns, however. It seems to me that from the article, the Glenn McConnell Pkwy will never be completed. WHY THE HELL NOT?!?!? :angry: That is just plain ridiculous to plan a road that will alleviate the already burdened 2-lane SC 61 and purposely not complete it.

My other concern is, of course, the north city. With this project being downsized significantly, there should not be an interest in annexing the property, and it should be annexed by either Charleston or Summerville. But I doubt Mayor Summey will back down since he is so greedy.

Watson Hill gets smaller in scope

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All they have really done is make it more clear that the largest phase of the development (3300 Units) will not be built unless the Glenn McConnell is extended. Also, a road to SC165 would not alleviate any traffic heading toward Charleston. I don't see that as any real concession by the developer, but it should focus the debate where it ought to be.

I also don't think the public outcry against the project will diminish.

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Well, I am opposed to this annexation, but I wish you had written more about what the article said. I was about to say, "F**king s--t" and demand that Spartan change my name to N. Charleston native, since it seems that is the way the metro area is becoming. :ph34r: My concerns are fully being realized!

Anyway, S'ville was trying to prevent the north city from voting on annexing Watson Hill. You see, Mayor Summey and is cohorts have essentially annexed Watso Hill illegally until the situation involving the Barry tract is resolved. S'ville and the north city both annexed the tract, which would make N. Chuck contiguous to Watson Hill and enable the city to annex it. If the Barry tract goes to Summerville, then the north city can't annex Watson Hill! :thumbsup: So, there's still a way to go with this soap opera.

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Well, I am opposed to this annexation, but I wish you had written more about what the article said. I was about to say, "F**king s--t" and demand that Spartan change my name to N. Charleston native, since it seems that is the way the metro area is becoming.  :ph34r:  My concerns are fully being realized!

Anyway, S'ville was trying to prevent the north city from voting on annexing Watson Hill. You see, Mayor Summey and is cohorts have essentially annexed Watso Hill illegally until the situation involving the Barry tract is resolved. S'ville and the north city both annexed the tract, which would make N. Chuck contiguous to Watson Hill and enable the city to annex it. If the Barry tract goes to Summerville, then the north city can't annex Watson Hill!  :thumbsup:  So, there's still a way to go with this soap opera.

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Charleston Native, I knew this would probably flare you up! Don't worry. All the citie sin the Lowcountry are growing equally. Don't get paranoid about North Charleston's growth. In a way, this helps the other cities realize that they can't sit back a try to reclaim the "little town" syndrome. Charleston is growing as well. Just the other day I drove don Hwy 61 and at the Charleston County line the city of Charleston has put up its city limit sign. Its only a metter of time before Charleston city tries to annex the entire West Ashley to prevent North charleston from growing any further in that direction. And North Charleston has also considered jumping even further up 26 into Berkeley County.

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Charleston Native, I knew this would probably flare you up!  Don't worry.  All the citie sin the Lowcountry are growing equally.  Don't get paranoid about North Charleston's growth.  In a way, this helps the other cities realize that they can't sit back a try to reclaim the "little town" syndrome.  Charleston is growing as well.  Just the other day I drove don Hwy 61 and at the Charleston County line the city of Charleston has put up its city limit sign.  Its only a metter of time before Charleston city tries to annex the entire West Ashley to prevent North charleston from growing any further in that direction.  And North Charleston has also considered jumping even further up 26 into Berkeley County.

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Well, remember that the reason why Charleston annexed land all the way up there was because of this whole Watson Hill fiasco. Thanks though, for that bit of information to cheer me up! B) It is reassuring to know that Charleston isn't sitting by the wayside.

I don't think I'm being paranoid about the north city's intentions, though. Mayor Summey's goals to make his city the premier city in the metro area could not be clearer with the way he manages growth (or should I say, the way he lets growth run wild and free in the North Area!). He may never get the city to become the county seat, but he does want it to be a completely separate entity from the mother city of Charleston, the city that his community leeches economic growth from.

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