Orlando Attractions Area News & Developments

[Uncommon]

1 hour ago, spenser1058 said:

So we go ahead and create more low paying jobs? The economy was doing just fine in the aggregate with the current number of parks. As COVID has proved, however (and the Great Recession and 9/11 before it) that puts the region at risk if we don’t pivot and diversify going forward. Instead, apparently you wish to double down and continue on that path.

Remember, thanks in large part to our overreliance on tourism in the economy, Orlando is 50 of 50 among MSAs on wages. 

I have long defended a lot of what the industry has done locally. A massive increase in our current business model, however, threatens to swallow us whole. The question I have asked in the past is, do you just close the parks and send everyone elsewhere. Obviously, that’s a recipe for disaster (as we’ve seen recently). On the other hand, when you find yourself in a deep hole, the first rule is to STOP DIGGING!

This sounds like a logical fallacy. Just because Epic doesn’t get built doesn’t mean all the jobs it would’ve created will suddenly be replaced with higher-paying jobs. And what’s more, the people that would’ve been employed by Epic probably wouldn’t qualify for those higher-paying jobs if they did exist. Taking away jobs is never a good thing, even if they’re low-paying, because there’s no guarantee they will be supplanted by higher-paying jobs.

So Orlando is 50 out of 50 for average wage. Okay. If Disney and Universal shut down today, that would leave, what a hundreds thousand people without a jobs? But sure, the average salary would go up. Is that the ultimate goal? Taking away low-paying jobs doesn’t in most cases result in higher-paying jobs replacing them, so your post is immensely head-scratching.

[spenser1058]

Just now, Uncommon said:

This sounds like a logical fallacy. Just because Epic doesn’t get built doesn’t mean all the jobs it would’ve created will suddenly be replaced with higher-paying jobs. And what’s more, the people that would’ve been employed by Epic probably wouldn’t qualify for those higher-paying jobs if they did exist. Taking away jobs is never a good thing, even if they’re low-paying, because there’s no guarantee they will be supplanted by higher-paying jobs.

So Orlando is 50 out of 50 for average wage. Okay. If Disney and Universal shut down today, that would leave, what a hundreds thousand people without a jobs? But sure, the average salary would go up. Is that the ultimate goal? Taking away low-paying jobs doesn’t in most cases result in higher-paying jobs replacing them, so your post is immensely head-scratching.

That’s my point. Things can remain as they are but it makes no sense to invest tax revenues and encouraging a spiral which will only make matters worse.

I think one would be hard pressed to say, as the only place on the planet with 7 major theme parks and a host of smaller ones (plus more hotel rooms than pretty much anywhere else on the planet), that we haven’t done our share for the industry.

Short of changing the zoning laws to prevent the construction of another park, there’s not much we can do if Universal goes ahead. We can, however, refuse to subsidize infrastructure with tax dollars and not spend money investing in a convention center that uses workers who qualify for SNAP, WIC and other government stipends and sits empty as much as 300 days/year.

The two other cities somewhat in our same position, Las Vegas and Anaheim, are also putting on the brakes by, in the case of the former, using resort taxes for other community needs and, in the case of Anaheim, dialing back carte blanche approval of whatever the tourism community wants.

Bottom line: we’ll go as far as we’ve gone, but no further. Otherwise, we’re on our way to becoming another sad resort like Atlantic City, a once proud jewel that simply became unsustainable on a pure tourism model.

As elections move forward, the idea of threatening office holders looking out for all the people by bankrolling Republican candidates subservient to the industry are done. If there’s an “R” behind the name in Orange and Osceola County, you can no longer be elected dogcatcher. Within the Democratic Party, we will insist on candidates who agree that 50 of 50 is no longer good enough.

[jack]

I don't think we really give these industries any support besides the convention center which we both probably agree that it needs to stop or be scaled back. Outside of the Universal road deal which was I believe CRA dollars, they are pretty much on cruise control. 

Do the employees of the convention center really make low wages? They are government employees. 

And the cost of housing has gone up but not only because of land, the cost to build has skyrocketed. Mostly, because of wage increases for the employees. 

[spenser1058]

7 minutes ago, jack said:

I don't think we really give these industries any support besides the convention center which we both probably agree that it needs to stop or be scaled back. Outside of the Universal road deal which was I believe CRA dollars, they are pretty much on cruise control. 

Do the employees of the convention center really make low wages? They are government employees. 

And the cost of housing has gone up but not only because of land, the cost to build has skyrocketed. Mostly, because of wage increases for the employees. 

There aren’t that many actual OCCC employees. Most of the activities are handled by third-party vendors.

As for costs for the employees, compare the ratio of how much the folks at the top are making relative to those at the bottom. Look at the Golden Age of the US in the 1960’s as your base. You’ll be amazed how many times more the guys at the top make now relative to the bottom compared to the ‘60’s.

You’ll also find the big corporate firms that build houses now have a lot more overhead than, say, a Gordon Barnett did when he built Pine Hills.

Why? Unreasonable  profit demands every quarter from Wall St. 

At each step of the process now, everyone is demanding more until you get to the bottom where the guy (or gal) can’t afford a basic Ford, a small house and to send the kids to college without putting themselves in debt to Betsy DeVos’ student loan sharks for the rest of their lives.

We’ve reached the end of where this model will take us. Time to start over with new rules and (thanks, Poppy Bush!) a new paradigm.

Edited July 31, 2020 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

Second round of Universal layoffs announced:

https://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/202007/7625/
 

From Theme Park Insider 

[aent]

5 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

There aren’t that many actual OCCC employees. Most of the activities are handled by third-party vendors.

As for costs for the employees, compare the ratio of how much the folks at the top are making relative to those at the bottom. Look at the Golden Age of the US in the 1960’s as your base. You’ll be amazed how many times more the guys at the top make now relative to the bottom compared to the ‘60’s.

You’ll also find the big corporate firms that build houses now have a lot more overhead than, say, a Gordon Barnett did when he built Pine Hills.

Why? Unreasonable  profit demands every quarter from Wall St. 

At each step of the process now, everyone is demanding more until you get to the bottom where the guy (or gal) can’t afford a basic Ford, a small house and to send the kids to college without putting themselves in debt to Betsy DeVos’ student loan sharks for the rest of their lives.

We’ve reached the end of where this model will take us. Time to start over with new rules and (thanks, Poppy Bush!) a new paradigm.

But your insane solution to that is to stop investment and reduce the number of employees. Pre-COVID, Orlando had really, really low unemployment. To the point where those who were unemployed were near unemployable for a variety of reasons (many companies were still actively hiring and looking for low skilled laborers and didn't select the few that were unemployed). And Universal  was about to bring thousands more of those types of jobs. If you have even a basic understanding of capitalism, that doesn't leave very many choices:

1) Import cheap labor. Its fairly hard to do that for minimum wage, people don't want to relocate for super-low wages, especially when the nation as a whole had a low unemployment rate.

2) Raise wages to get people to work for you.

And your solution is to eliminate those jobs, harm all of those low wage workers who would have been desperately needed by Universal to the point where Universal HAD to give them a wage increase. I mean, it was literally already happening: Disney and Universal were promising the $15/hr minimum wage to their workers, and if Universal is hiring thousands more people, those small businesses outside of the gates of Disney and Universal that you seem to despise since they may pay less will have to pay more to be able to have employees. With how loud Universal and Disney have been about their wage increases, those employees surely know if they apply on the other side of the gates, they'll get more money, and realistically, better benefits as well. Everyone has to keep up.

There's nothing about this that does anything to help anyone. Orlando's been trying to diversify for many years.  Its had some success, especially with Lake Nona mostly creating lots of brand new to the area high wage jobs. But there's literally no reason to give up what we got, and no reason not to try to make that portion of our economy even larger and better.

I, like most of the other posters it seems here, do agree we should stop throwing money at things like the convention center (that things gotta be self supporting by now, no?), and the TDT should be redirected to other things outside of venues. I doubt the effectiveness of the entire "Visit Orlando" organization, and I think instead of trying to pass a new regressive sales tax for transportation that will really harm the poorest people in this town, it seems far better to redirect TDT dollars to work on our transportation issues, which in my view, the tourist area seems to get needed projects first with many areas of the county left out entirely.

[jack]

On 7/31/2020 at 12:36 PM, spenser1058 said:

There aren’t that many actual OCCC employees. Most of the activities are handled by third-party vendors.

As for costs for the employees, compare the ratio of how much the folks at the top are making relative to those at the bottom. Look at the Golden Age of the US in the 1960’s as your base. You’ll be amazed how many times more the guys at the top make now relative to the bottom compared to the ‘60’s.

You’ll also find the big corporate firms that build houses now have a lot more overhead than, say, a Gordon Barnett did when he built Pine Hills.

Why? Unreasonable  profit demands every quarter from Wall St. 

At each step of the process now, everyone is demanding more until you get to the bottom where the guy (or gal) can’t afford a basic Ford, a small house and to send the kids to college without putting themselves in debt to Betsy DeVos’ student loan sharks for the rest of their lives.

We’ve reached the end of where this model will take us. Time to start over with new rules and (thanks, Poppy Bush!) a new paradigm.

I was referring to the guys that actually do the work, the sub contractors. Most GC's and subs are privately held and do not answer to wall st. On the development some, only the national home builders are publicly traded and I don't believe their market share is greater than 20%-30%. So most homes are built buy firms that are fairly small and are privately held.  

As to the large gap of CEO's in compensation now compared to the 60's, there has been some interesting research that pegs a lot of change due to a push back in the 90's to change comp packages from salaried to awarding stock. The idea (from the gov't of course) was that the CEO's would be more accountable if that is where their income came from. No one predicted that their pay would skyrocket as a result. 

[IAmFloridaBorn]

New High School in Dr. Phillips area.

 

 

[jgardnerucf]

The same blueprints used for simultaneous high in Hamlin. They're neck n neck in rush to finish.

[spenser1058]

Necessity is the mother of invention (as Tommy Smothers once observed, “why would you give your kid a strange name like Invention? Of course, if you have a name like Necessity...)

Anyway, out of most wars, crises, major programs (after all, the moon race got us Tang!) come new ideas to solve problems we might not have known we had.

Sooo... in light of COVID, a new way to sanitize roller coasters! In fact, guests can just be sprayed down in the process - is this a great country or what?

https://www.themeparkinsider.com/flume/202008/7636/
 

From Theme Park Insider 

Edited August 5, 2020 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

Work is coming right along in Epcot’s France Pavilion at the entrance to Ratatouille. Might the opening be soon despite COVID?

https://wdwnt.com/2020/08/photos-entrance-to-remys-ratatouille-adventure-visible-amid-france-pavilion-expansion-at-epcot/
 

From WDW News Today 

[spenser1058]

@jgardnerucf is ready for the opening of the Orlando-area’s first “small” Target on lovely Daryl Carter Parkway August 16

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-cfb-target-orlando-small-format-20200812-lxems32t7vf63jwmh3qxeazc34-story.html
 

From the Sentinel

[codypet]

Wouldn't that just be the Target from the old years?  Like the one on Sand Lake?

[jgardnerucf]

Nope.

[Jerry95]

On 8/14/2020 at 7:58 AM, codypet said:

Wouldn't that just be the Target from the old years?  Like the one on Sand Lake?

These are smaller than the Targets or Super Targets. Gainesville added one next to the UF campus while I was there, sure would’ve been nice if I was still in a dorm. 

I really want to see one added to downtown.

[codypet]

Wait.  So like the Alley Target in Raleigh?  I hated losing that bowling alley, but they did give an homage to the old Alley in the new Target. 

https://www.facebook.com/TheAlleyRaleigh/

http://www.technicianonline.com/news/article_073bc102-c500-11e7-98b7-73bfdb0df897.html

[spenser1058]

There’s a lot of variation with the small-format Targets. The one on Daryl Carter is 65K sf, which is relatively large (although smaller than a typical Target). They can go as smallest <20K sf as required.

While we’re in Raleigh, that was a bit of deja vu. The original Darryl’s was there on Hillsborough St. I worked for the chain version (they got bought by General Mills/Darden) on I-Drive in college.

The original Raleigh store was in a huge old warehouse.

(The only Darryl’s left is in Greensboro: https://www.darryls.com/ )

Edited August 17, 2020 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

This will be different: Lennar Homes pulling permits for mixed-use development including single-family residential at north end of I-Drive:

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2020/08/14/lennar-corp-seeks-new-permits-for-i-drive-project.html

From OBJ

Other I-Drive projects also mentioned.

[spenser1058]

Tavistock and others building more spec industrial space near I-Drive:

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2020/08/17/spec-construction-starts-on-project-tourist-area.html
 

From OBJ (paywall)

Looking to broaden the SW Orange economic base or more of the same?

Edited August 18, 2020 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

I’ve said before that, as a political wag has observed, “never miss the opportunity provided by a good crisis”.

UP’er Ken Storey notes something even more important than any COVID- related delay to Universal’s Epic Universe, which would provide its third theme park gate.

As mentioned, while we have an obligation to support our largest industry, we are not required to assist such a low-paying, cyclical business to grow and take us even further down the path to 50th of 50 MSA’s when it comes to wages and the like.

Especially since the tourism community has chosen to interfere in an OC Commission race and flood it with cash for a totally unethical candidate, it makes it even easier.

But, even more importantly in the article is where Ken addresses the fact that business and convention travel, which is the excuse county leaders use to constantly pump money into the white elephant that is the OCCC, has been even more affected than consumer travel.

if you think about how much long-standing patterns of conducting business have already changed and are likely to change even more as corporate bean counters have the chance to cut the fat of business travel (especially conventions), it’s even more important to dial back the county’s reliance on it.

Such travel is not totally going away but neither should we expect it to grow. Now is the time, to paraphrase William F. Buckley, Jr. (a Republican!) to stand athwart the OCCC and say, STOP!

What other industries should we concentrate on and support and, more importantly, will reduce our dependence on jobs that require so much government support?

Now is the time to look at the issue, not after billions more are invested in projects that we cannot support as a community.

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2020/08/18/thanks-to-the-pandemic-universal-orlando-seems-to-have-an-epic-problem
 

From Orlando Weekly 

Edited August 18, 2020 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

For the record: it looks like the tourism industry’s attempt to buy the OC Commission District 1 seat for the totally corrupt incumbent has failed completely.

Stay tuned for final tallies but all the DINOs out there (not to mention Republicans) need to get with the program before they run again.

Yes, this includes the Sainted One Under the Dome. 

OC District 1 is (was?)a conservative district while Orlando is as blue as can be.

Unofficial tallies: Ms VanderLey (incumbent) 43%; Ms Wilson 57%. If this holds, no runoff. The Tourism/Real Estate/Developer Establishment needs to wake up.

I can’t stress how important this relatively small race was to demonstrate whether we want a government run for corporate interests or for citizens. Tonight, the citizens won. Many thanks to all who voted in District 1!

Edited August 19, 2020 by spenser1058

[codypet]

12 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Unofficial tallies: Ms VanderLey (incumbent) 43%; Ms Wilson 57%. If this holds, no runoff. The Tourism/Real Estate/Developer Establishment needs to wake up.

I can’t stress how important this relatively small race was to demonstrate whether we want a government run for corporate interests or for citizens. Tonight, the citizens won. Many thanks to all who voted in District 1!

Wait! How did Hannah do?

[spenser1058]

4 minutes ago, codypet said:

Wait! How did Hannah do?

Which race was that?

[codypet]

6 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Which race was that?

Same race.  My browser was peppered with ads related to that race because as the Orlando Sentinel put it "That’s when incumbent Commissioner Betsy VanderLey faces off against environmental-law attorney Nicole Wilson in Orange County’s District 1 — an election that moved from the November general to the August primary because a friend of VanderLey’s got his 20-year-old stepdaughter to file as a write-in option."

The ad features the 20 yo step daughter named Hannah in a bikini so the joke was that the attack ad was going to have the opposite effect and she was going to win.

[spenser1058]

47 minutes ago, codypet said:

Same race.  My browser was peppered with ads related to that race because as the Orlando Sentinel put it "That’s when incumbent Commissioner Betsy VanderLey faces off against environmental-law attorney Nicole Wilson in Orange County’s District 1 — an election that moved from the November general to the August primary because a friend of VanderLey’s got his 20-year-old stepdaughter to file as a write-in option."

The ad features the 20 yo step daughter named Hannah in a bikini so the joke was that the attack ad was going to have the opposite effect and she was going to win.

Betsy can now spend her time with the Karens and Kens and Biffs at the country club- her services (and Hannah’s!) are no longer required.