Other Metro Area Projects

[Jernigan]

It was dead well before Mica lost.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Well I don’t think anti- transit democrat is a fair description . If anything the democrat lacks clout. Unless there’s something u know, enlighten me.

[spenser1058]

(A) Jernigan is correct;

(B) Congresswoman Murphy supported SunRail phases 2 & 3:

https://murphy.house.gov/uploadedfiles/rep_stephanie_murphy_legislative_update_august2017.pdf

(see page 9 of her legislative update for details;)

(C) Urban Mail Carrier is correct in that Ms. Murphy does not have the transportation clout Mica had after 20+ years in office (and had the mega contributions from transportation firms like CSX to prove it.) However, does that mean he was to be our anti- civil rights congressman for life? If so, please tell your GOP friends as they are the ones supposedly all in for term limits (but ignore it for their longtime members.)

[jrs2]

^^

I think this discussion is getting off track and a little partisan.  Let's just flush this out:  The two parties are two sides to the same elite establishment coin- and I don't mean that in a Trump way; I believe he's also part of it.  I'm not attacking anyone, but let's not continue to be situational hypocrites that the system has conditioned us to be.  We're all guilty of it; including me.

For example:

Mica and civil rights?  What about LBJ and the New Deal and his famous racist quote, and urban ghettos that persisted since?  What about the Right to Privacy and the NSA recording everything we do? What about Obama expanding the Patriot Act.  What about HW & W & the Clintons looking to sell out this country to foreign interests and influence?  What about a 50 year Cold War propagated by Reagan, Carter, LBJ, Ford, Nixon, Kennedy, Dwight, Harry S.) where no shot was fired against the actual enemy, who was actually created by us, yet trillions was spent on military by both super powers (and both US political parties) using fear tactics to warrant it? What about a monetary system that has no check or balances, literally, and devalues the currency to keep us all poor?  Interest rates, anyone? And a global foreign policy that appears to be dictated by the central banks. 

Or are our noses so far up the Government's collective ass, whether we're flag waving or flag burning, that the only time we disagree with it is when the opposite party is in power or control?  Are we really that reliant on Big Brother?  We all need to get off the two party system crack we're smoking and sober up because we're all being played.

That being said...

I think the reality is that Sunrail only exists b/c of CSX's strategic moves for their own purposes, which means, they sold the idea of CRT so that CSX could have it's other track(s) modernized and an enormous intermodal center built in Winter Haven- to benefit CSX.  Yes, Orlando is lucky it was a benefactor of this move, as it was thus sold to us, but commerce is important, and the State found it necessary to invest in "privately owned" rail infrastructure.  I'm sure people were greased as well.

I think aent is correct.  I think Jernigan is also correct.  Murphy "supporting" phases 2 & 3 doesn't mean anything other than politics. If she was a Rep, she would support "The Wall" to get votes. (not, Pink Floyd's The Wall). 

Lip service means nothing (Murphy; not to single her out, which is unfair).  But when a politician views a project as his or her legacy (Mica), they pull favors for it's continued success.  That element is now gone for Sunrail.  Thus aent is correct.

The route has it's faults which jeopardizes it's viability, thus Jernigan is also correct, making Sunrail "dead well before..." in that argument.

Spenser1058 is also correct.  Aren't you always? (seniority has it's privileges)

So as it is now, the State and municipalities have to commit to Sunrail's success; all in or bust.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Well I wasn’t getting political. I as a Democrat voted for Mica the republican because it was in Orlando’s best interest. Even though I personally don’t like him. The times I’ve spoken to him he comes across as an arrogant as&$:;. Mica has clout and could push Orlando transit along. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Urban Mail Carrier

[I am Reality]

No politician of either party deserves any credit for anthing.  We have poor transportation infrastructure.  Period.

What has been developed so far (like I-4 Ultimate or the Greenaway) was needed and deserved.  The population growth and 80 million or so additional tourists REQUIRED more capacity. 

The Ultimate or SunRail or anything else were not gifted to us by any politician.  

I think we need to focus less on the motivations of this politician or that politician.  It is irrelevant.  

If you want to be a big city, act like one.  Expect better roads and transit.  They are not political favors. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by I am Reality

[HankStrong]

Hahahaha

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

No politician of either party deserves any credit for anthing.  We have poor transportation infrastructure.  Period.

What has been developed so far (like I-4 Ultimate or the Greenaway) was needed and deserved.  The population growth and 80 million or so additional tourists REQUIRED more capacity. 

The Ultimate or SunRail or anything else were not gifted to us by any politician.  

I think we need to focus less on the motivations of this politician or that politician.  It is irrelevant.  

If you want to be a big city, act like one.  Expect better roads and transit.  They are not political favors. 

that's not entirely accurate.  See Atlanta in the '70's (Jimmy Carter/ Tom Moreland)

I'm assuming the statement about acting like a big city and expecting better roads is aimed at the elected officials that deal in transportation and influence policy, no?  Or to the citizens who put pressure on those elected officials?  Either way, politics is involved.

 

[I am Reality]

I feel no obligation to thank Mica (or any other politician).   

In the case of Mica, he was doing his job.   Nothing more and nothing less.   He did not use his "clout" to "bring home the bacon."  Traffic was a problem when he was in power.   Anyone with common sense could see that.  The traffic problems were getting worse.   Any politician would have done what Mica did.   It would have been a real problem if he DIDN'T do anything.   Are we seriously suggesting that we'd have no expanded highways or transit without Mica?  

If he was so powerful as people say, he completely failed.  We have heavy traffic congestion everywhere, tolled public-highways that are being partially privatized, and a heavy-rail system that doesn't really go anywhere,.  That is a horrible track-record.  

He is no hero.  He did the bare minimum, as far as I am concerned.  

[aent]

8 hours ago, jrs2 said:

^^

I think this discussion is getting off track and a little partisan.  Let's just flush this out:  The two parties are two sides to the same elite establishment coin- and I don't mean that in a Trump way; I believe he's also part of it.  I'm not attacking anyone, but let's not continue to be situational hypocrites that the system has conditioned us to be.  We're all guilty of it; including me.

For example:

Mica and civil rights?  What about LBJ and the New Deal and his famous racist quote, and urban ghettos that persisted since?  What about the Right to Privacy and the NSA recording everything we do? What about Obama expanding the Patriot Act.  What about HW & W & the Clintons looking to sell out this country to foreign interests and influence?  What about a 50 year Cold War propagated by Reagan, Carter, LBJ, Ford, Nixon, Kennedy, Dwight, Harry S.) where no shot was fired against the actual enemy, who was actually created by us, yet trillions was spent on military by both super powers (and both US political parties) using fear tactics to warrant it? What about a monetary system that has no check or balances, literally, and devalues the currency to keep us all poor?  Interest rates, anyone? And a global foreign policy that appears to be dictated by the central banks. 

Or are our noses so far up the Government's collective ass, whether we're flag waving or flag burning, that the only time we disagree with it is when the opposite party is in power or control?  Are we really that reliant on Big Brother?  We all need to get off the two party system crack we're smoking and sober up because we're all being played.

That being said...

I think the reality is that Sunrail only exists b/c of CSX's strategic moves for their own purposes, which means, they sold the idea of CRT so that CSX could have it's other track(s) modernized and an enormous intermodal center built in Winter Haven- to benefit CSX.  Yes, Orlando is lucky it was a benefactor of this move, as it was thus sold to us, but commerce is important, and the State found it necessary to invest in "privately owned" rail infrastructure.  I'm sure people were greased as well.

I think aent is correct.  I think Jernigan is also correct.  Murphy "supporting" phases 2 & 3 doesn't mean anything other than politics. If she was a Rep, she would support "The Wall" to get votes. (not, Pink Floyd's The Wall). 

Lip service means nothing (Murphy; not to single her out, which is unfair).  But when a politician views a project as his or her legacy (Mica), they pull favors for it's continued success.  That element is now gone for Sunrail.  Thus aent is correct.

The route has it's faults which jeopardizes it's viability, thus Jernigan is also correct, making Sunrail "dead well before..." in that argument.

Spenser1058 is also correct.  Aren't you always? (seniority has it's privileges)

So as it is now, the State and municipalities have to commit to Sunrail's success; all in or bust.

Calm down people, my comment was made in jest, mainly because several others here have literally posted the same thing on the other side. The jrs2 post I quoted does, for the most part, match my feelings, and I felt the others doing the same thing whenever someone supports anything other then the democrats, its crazy. If people have paid attention, I'm far from a republican, I've voted on both sides, along with for third parties, based on however I feel about each person's individual merits. I am reality is also right that he was just doing his job, for, many of the people in congress don't do that.. at all, and Mica was good for Orlando... we are just in a worse place for losing Mica.

Edited June 19, 2018 by aent

[jrs2]

^^

People are so aligned with their parties it's a tough cycle to break.  So much hypocrisy in that way of thinking that is so unnecessary.  The establishment is playing everybody and laughing all the way to the bank when we bicker and people at Orange & Church protest immigration policies of Trump (like they are right now), but ignored worse immigration policies when Obama was deporting people left and right and responsible for allowing the Guantanamo situation to persist.  Why weren't those same people protesting then?  Because they are hypocrites that claim the moral high ground.  You see it on both sides.  People take the bait and it goes on and on. and on  

19 hours ago, I am Reality said:

I feel no obligation to thank Mica (or any other politician).   

In the case of Mica, he was doing his job.   Nothing more and nothing less.   He did not use his "clout" to "bring home the bacon."  Traffic was a problem when he was in power.   Anyone with common sense could see that.  The traffic problems were getting worse.   Any politician would have done what Mica did.   It would have been a real problem if he DIDN'T do anything.   Are we seriously suggesting that we'd have no expanded highways or transit without Mica?  

If he was so powerful as people say, he completely failed.  We have heavy traffic congestion everywhere, tolled public-highways that are being partially privatized, and a heavy-rail system that doesn't really go anywhere,.  That is a horrible track-record.  

He is no hero.  He did the bare minimum, as far as I am concerned.  

Wrong.  Tampa has horrible traffic yet no CRT line.  Why didn't Tampa's representatives push for mass transit and get it passed?  You're expanding your argument to include highways; the comment about Mica dealt with CRT, not highways, and that you need good representatives and favors to get $$$ invested into local projects.

That being said about Mica, see my prior post about the reality of Sunrail & CSX.  Mica sold the idea of CRT to CFLA but was vested in seeing it succeed- that is a fact.  Beyond that, there was never going to be money to buy easement for a line that went other than where the CSX line currently goes.  It was a CSX deal.  Again, you can't be the face man for a rail project and then just let it fail.  That's not realistic.  Noone ever said he was a hero; but he was the best shot at expanding this system that we had.

[I am Reality]

I can think of many cities of similar- or smaller-size that have commuter rail.  

Pittsburgh 

Portland

Salt Lake City 

Baltimore

Charlotte 

Denver 

Memphis 

San Diego 

Austin 

Minneapolis 

Buffalo (Buffalo!) 

New Haven

St. Louis 

Cleveland 

Nashville was getting it before voters opposed it

No need for anyone with Mica-like "clout". 

I can't speak on behalf of Tampa.  But again, I am not impressed with Tampa at all as a city. 

 

 

[jrs2]

26 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I can think of many cities of similar- or smaller-size that have commuter rail.  

Pittsburgh 

Portland

Salt Lake City 

Baltimore

Charlotte 

Denver 

Memphis 

San Diego 

Austin 

Minneapolis 

Buffalo (Buffalo!) 

New Haven

St. Louis 

Cleveland 

Nashville was getting it before voters opposed it

No need for anyone with Mica-like "clout". 

I can't speak on behalf of Tampa.  But again, I am not impressed with Tampa at all as a city. 

 

 

So your point is that these other similarly sized cities have CRT, therefore, for Mica to push for it in Orlando isn't that extraordinary because his counterparts in those other cities already did the same thing?  If so, I see your point.

But, I also replied to your comment about "acting" like a big city, etc., and my point was that a city or region will not just magically get CRT out of the blue; rather, that representatives from there have to push for it and pull favors to get it.  Are you saying those cities on that list got CRT from a stork that just dropped it on their doorsteps just because they finally "arrived" as cities, and not because they had representatives pushing for CRT's passage?  

And your dismissal of Tampa to bolster your point doesn't hold water.

Bottom line, is that nothing gets built (like CRT, etc.) unless it's pushed for or voted for depending.  Someone has to be the protagonist and fill that role.  FDOT 5th District isn't going to plan for it out of the blue.  How could they?  Tallahassee has to approve it.  And who in Tallahassee makes those decisions, residents of Orlando who are now acting like they live in a big city?  No.  Politicians.

But seriously, when you have cities that were large back when Orlando was little more than Fort Gatlin and orange groves, getting rail transit before Orlando, well, that's normal.  For Orlando, the urban sprawl capital of the State with recent growth to get CRT when the density to support it was a little suspect, that is not normal, especially when Tampa and Jacksonville are both more dense by comparison and don't yet have it.  

You throw a lot of concepts into your post(s) but they don't agree with reality.

[I am Reality]

You are correct. Someone has to ask for a rail system and push for it.  I thought that was a given.

I see no evidence that Mica was any more effective than anyone else pushing for anything.  Rail systems are built because of high population and traffic problems.  I don't consider those "storks."  They come from decades of development.

Sun Rail is not very impressive, if that is to be considered Mica's big accomplishment. It uses 1880s technology.   It doesn't go anywhere.  It misses every Employment  center other than downtown (Maitland Center, UCF/Research Park, Lockheed-East, Lockheed-South, Lake Nona/Medical City, the attractions, the airport, Tesla-Clermont, etc).  The regional system is completely disjointed.  It will not be connected to the Brightline, Hyperloop or the airport (although plans are in the works, I guess).

Quite honestly, we may have been  better off without SunRail.  Orlando will never get a light rail system now.  No politician will ever justify building a light rail system that duplicates an existing rail route.  It just will not happen.  

If community leaders were not willing to build the rail system right, they shouldn't have done it at all.

Also, those other commuter rail systems I listed are modern light-rail systems (with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions). 

[aent]

1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

You are correct. Someone has to ask for a rail system and push for it.  I thought that was a given.

I see no evidence that Mica was any more effective than anyone else pushing for anything.  Rail systems are built because of high population and traffic problems.  I don't consider those "storks."  They come from decades of development.

Sun Rail is not very impressive, if that is to be considered Mica's big accomplishment. It uses 1880s technology.   It doesn't go anywhere.  It misses every Employment  center other than downtown (Maitland Center, UCF/Research Park, Lockheed-East, Lockheed-South, Lake Nona/Medical City, the attractions, the airport, Tesla-Clermont, etc).  The regional system is completely disjointed.  It will not be connected to the Brightline, Hyperloop or the airport (although plans are in the works, I guess).

Quite honestly, we may have been  better off without SunRail.  Orlando will never get a light rail system now.  No politician will ever justify building a light rail system that duplicates an existing rail route.  It just will not happen.  

If community leaders were not willing to build the rail system right, they shouldn't have done it at all.

Also, those other commuter rail systems I listed are modern light-rail systems (with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions). 

Mica was working towards getting OBX and the Sunrail extensions done, without him, there seems to be a consensus that we probably lost the north expansion, the airport expansion, and the entire Orange Blossom Express line. Our other poor leaders failed to do anything to keep Globalvia interested in building, at no expense to taxpayers, a light rail or maglev line connecting the airport to Sunrail and the entire attractions area. Infact, they literally sent them away, insisting or details of their transit system that unnecessarily raised costs, and then wanted them to guarantee any losses from rental car revenue for the airport, when the alternative is taking billions of taxpayer dollars to build the same exact thing as we got offered for free, although presumably with worse hours so ridership would be worse and we wouldn't lose as much rental car tax, gas tax, and toll revenue, because nobody would use the thing. Mica was fighting for OBX until the end, as it had a much lower cost then Sunrail on both a per mile and per stations basis. Infact, that may be a big part of the reason he lost... those that say they're voting for transit voted against the transit guy, because they voted down party lines. Those against transit likely voted against him as well, even if they traditionally vote for that party, because he took an issue on the wrong side in their eyes.

Can anyone tell me some actual, concrete things Stephanie Murphy has fought for, let alone accomplished, for Orlando with her position?

[I am Reality]

My comments about Sun Rail were not intended to be partisan.  I don't recall saying anything for or against Stephanie Murphy.  

You and I simply disagree about Sun Rail.  I don't see it as a useful, practical or appealing option.  You do and that is perfectly fine. 

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, I am Reality said:

You are correct. Someone has to ask for a rail system and push for it.  I thought that was a given.

I see no evidence that Mica was any more effective than anyone else pushing for anything.  Rail systems are built because of high population and traffic problems.  I don't consider those "storks."  They come from decades of development.

Sun Rail is not very impressive, if that is to be considered Mica's big accomplishment. It uses 1880s technology.   It doesn't go anywhere.  It misses every Employment  center other than downtown (Maitland Center, UCF/Research Park, Lockheed-East, Lockheed-South, Lake Nona/Medical City, the attractions, the airport, Tesla-Clermont, etc).  The regional system is completely disjointed.  It will not be connected to the Brightline, Hyperloop or the airport (although plans are in the works, I guess).

Quite honestly, we may have been  better off without SunRail.  Orlando will never get a light rail system now.  No politician will ever justify building a light rail system that duplicates an existing rail route.  It just will not happen.  

If community leaders were not willing to build the rail system right, they shouldn't have done it at all.

Also, those other commuter rail systems I listed are modern light-rail systems (with maybe 1 or 2 exceptions). 

First of all, this is Florida, not the NE or Chicago or CA or the Midwest.  So, getting any kind of rail built outside of SoFla  (Trirail, Metrorail) is a very big deal.  And getting rail in Orlando over Tampa is also a very big deal.   If it wasn't a big deal, then Tampa would already have a system.  If you disagree, then I don't know what to tell you.  That in and of itself was a big accomplishment for Mica.  

Paragraph 1 & 2 contradict each other.  Rail systems are built because of advocacy.  If there is none, then you have, say, Tampa, which has the population and traffic problems but no rail system.

As for Sunrail's technology, that's old news; it's locomotives. Sunrail is like Metra and Trirail.  

When CSX says that they are freeing up their mainline for passenger rail, you don't exactly let that opportunity go by the wayside or nothing will ever get done, especially when ROW costs so much $$$. 

FYI, the Chicago "El" train did not connect to O'Hare until the early 1990's and the CTA system existed for each of the 30 years of O'Hare's life as an airport (CTA existed for maybe 80 years).  Midway didn't get a rail link until a few years after O'Hare did.  Midway existed for decades prior to O'Hare's construction.  So not even the rail capital of the US had passenger rail service to either of it's two major airports for decades upon decade after those airports came into existence- and that's considering that the rail system was at least 80yo.  Sunrail is, what, 3-4 years old?  I think you are being a little too critical here.

40 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

My comments about Sun Rail were not intended to be partisan.  I don't recall saying anything for or against Stephanie Murphy.  

You and I simply disagree about Sun Rail.  I don't see it as a useful, practical or appealing option.  You do and that is perfectly fine. 

I personally don't think your Sunrail or Mica comments were partisan; what I disagree with is the notion that anyone else could have or would have been able to do the same thing in Orlando.  For God's sake, Rick Scott nixed HSR and delayed Sunrail for six months while threatening to veto it.  Do you really think that a Democrat in Mica's stead would have swayed him to allow Sunrail to move forward?

[I am Reality]

I find everyone's defensiveness about my SunRail comments interesting.   I've never seen anything positive about SunRail on here before.  

I understand your argument.  I just disagree. 

[jrs2]

18 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I find everyone's defensiveness about my SunRail comments interesting.   I've never seen anything positive about SunRail on here before.  

I understand your argument.  I just disagree. 

That's fine, but with regard to my last comment, if you still disagree, then you weren't following current events or following the Sunrail drama closely during the application and approval process.  We are lucky we even got what we got (such as it is), from Paula Dockery nixing it every chance she got to Rick Scott's delays...  both Republicans, mind you.

[I am Reality]

That's what politicians do...they politic.  There is nothing exceptional what he did.  It would be the same for any other  Republican or Democrat.  The argument for commuter rail in Orlando practically makes itself.  For god's sake, think if the number of tourists we handle.  

Beyond that, it's entirely possible that THIS version of SunRail was not worth fighting for.  Seriously, who looked at the route and thought it would be successful?

It was the cheapest option possible that made no consideration for functionality.  And everyone is disappointed by the ridership figures. 

[JFW657]

1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

I find everyone's defensiveness about my SunRail comments interesting.   I've never seen anything positive about SunRail on here before.  

I understand your argument.  I just disagree. 

The problem AFAIC, is that you don't make "comments".

You make pronouncements. And they tend to come across as if you think they are the undebatable last word. Plus, as often as not, they ignore or fail to take into account various other factors.

Case in point: "Someone has to ask for a rail system and push for it."  

Fine. Then what? Automatic success? That's what it sounds like you are implying. Just ask and push and next thing you know, you get what you wanted. This completely ignores all of the complex political machinations that go on behind the scenes and which occurred during the negotiations for Sun Rail.

Sun Rail is a decent start for Orlando and something to be built upon. Gotta walk before you can run.

1 hour ago, I am Reality said:

That's what politicians do...they politic.  There is nothing exceptional what he did.  It would be the same for any other  Republican or Democrat.  The argument for commuter rail in Orlando practically makes itself.  For god's sake, think if the number of tourists we handle.  

Beyond that, it's entirely possible that THIS version of SunRail was not worth fighting for.  Seriously, who looked at the route and thought it would be successful?

It was the cheapest option possible that made no consideration for functionality.  And everyone is disappointed by the ridership figures. 

Must be nice to live in such a cut and dried world.

Not much thinking required.

[I am Reality]

I have been nothing but courteous in this discussion:  

"I understand your argument.  I just disagree. "

"You and I simply disagree about Sun Rail.  I don't see it as a useful, practical or appealing option.  You do and that is perfectly fine."

Why the hell are you trying to argue and take cheap shots?   I disagree with you.  Is that alright????   If you want to have an extended argument with me about the merits of Sun Rail, send your private email address.  I'd be happy to indulge you. 

[Urban Mail Carrier]

I Am Reality I’ve been following your responses for a while. I’ve been quiet and respectful. But you bring no pleasure to this forum. Your negativity is so annoying. You seem to me like the glass is half empty type of person.  You are the type of person I would avoid in person so as to not become contaminated with your negativity.

[I am Reality]

5 minutes ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

I Am Reality I’ve been following your responses for a while. I’ve been quiet and respectful. But you bring no pleasure to this forum. Your negativity is so annoying. You seem to me like the glass is half empty type of person.  You are the type of person I would avoid in person so as to not become contaminated with your negativity.

Seems like a strong reaction to someone you disagree with.

I don't know you, so I dare not pass judgment on you.  I suggest you do the same.

[aent]

4 hours ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

I Am Reality I’ve been following your responses for a while. I’ve been quiet and respectful. But you bring no pleasure to this forum. Your negativity is so annoying. You seem to me like the glass is half empty type of person.  You are the type of person I would avoid in person so as to not become contaminated with your negativity.

Look, I'm the one who brought this current set of disagreement (admittedly on purpose) and he obviously disagrees with me on this very issue; but I think I am Reality has been doing much better being more reasonable, and if we ignore the bit of the (IMHO) crazy past I don't think you or anyone would be saying that. I am Reality did seem to spark some activity on the forum, making some people voice and share what they love around Orlando, in his own way, and did bring up a number of valid points. Hearing and accepting other people that have different opinions is important to spuring creativity, and making sure that our solutions are done in such a way that the vast majority of people will accept them and be happy with them, I feel like a yuge portion of society is missing that simple fact right now.