Other Metro Area Projects

[eastbank]

Yes, even that area...I speak particularly of the corner of Lakemont and Aloma, my company tried to develop a bank there and the city was impossible to deal with, basically they wanted the bank to build a gateway into the city at their expense, in addition to code issues. The problems of bringing old properties up to modern code and setbacks are in every city however, it's tough to find a balance.

Ah yes, the Fifth Third project. Is it officially dead now? I understand how difficult it must have been - on that corner, despite commercial zoning, it is close enough to Windsong and enough multimillion dollar homes (Phelps area) that people would have raised a stink if that parcel was developed without some special touches. A new gateway at that intersection would be fantastic.

A lot of folks living around that area would prefer the sort of dilapadated run down and overgrown corner to just another bank-in a box, so the hurdles presented don't surprise me. I wonder what the future has in store for that spot?

What I don't understand are big developers like those working on the Carlise seem to think they deserve to bypass standard permitting procedures, when in fact their plans don't meet code in the first place. I work for a small engineering firm and I don't think we would even try and submit something like that. Variances are typically hard to get and we discourage our clients from trying unless they are in a very unusual situation.

Bingo. The Carlisle folks have some slick PR people working for them, twisting the truth, but our new mayor is hopefully going to stand his ground and hold them to their obligations, if they want to build at all.

[eastbank]

And eastbank's notion that everything on the planet is based on the planning ideas of Winter Park??? HUH???

Uhhh, no. I stated that Winter Park was the first planned community in the state of Florida, which is fact. Urban planners from around the country study its design and layout in planning new urbanism projects. The planners of Seaside, and many, many subsequent projects, including Celebration, studied Winter Park before those projects got off the ground.

I thought WP started out as a housing area for the blacks. A train stop before Orlando during the time shortly after slavery was abolished. Correct me if I'm wrong.

No. WP was established as a resort town for wealthy northerners at the end of the 19th century. Many mansions and hotels sprang up around the chain of lakes, and shortly after, Rollins - the oldest private liberal arts college in the state - was started by a man from Maine.

According to the original plan, the west side of the train tracks, Hannibal Square, was to be housing for servants and workers (ie the blacks). It was de-annexed after the Civil War, and re-annexed as Southern racism finally began to die down, after the reconstruction.

Orlando was a mere trading post and cow town in the days when WP had elaborate resorts and played host to socialites from Chicago, Boston, and New York. WP's early growth was quite apart from Orlando's origins.

[JRS1]

We need to be down to earth on this WP thing here.

We can't just take a crap on a developer just b/c the project is too big or whatever. I was here before 1998 and saw what Park Ave. and the WP Mall was like. THe mall was crap. Park Ave was paved over and they recently rebricked it, which made it richer. Also, Suntrust Center, Regent, all of New England, Park Place, most of Palmer now, WP Village, Rollins upgrades, WP Road developments etc., and scattered new bldgs on Penn et all have transformed WP with the times.

I stand by what I said about Carlysle; I prefer that over not developing the PO.

[prahaboheme]

Thornton Park and Winter Park aren't really comparable. Thornton Park is definitely more dynamic.

FYI... Dexters started out in Winter Park, then they opened in TP, and then they moved to their new space in WP.

And eastbank's notion that everything on the planet is based on the planning ideas of Winter Park??? HUH???

I don't know everything about planned cities, but I highly doubt WP started it. You may want to go check out your history books on that one.

I thought WP started out as a housing area for the blacks. A train stop before Orlando during the time shortly after slavery was abolished. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Woops....excuse my ignorance on Dexter's, though my position on Thornton Park stands nonetheless. Not that Thornton Park needs defending.

Edited May 4, 2006 by prahaboheme

[GRS328]

Ok, I've been dying to get in on this one all day long, but haven't had the time. And since praha has pretty much anything I could wish to add, I'll keep it short. I'll grant eastbank makes some decent points in his argument. But based on the posts, it seems there is a scripture-like reverence for WP's comprehensive plan - and the only issue with the Carlisle is the fact that it is a variance thereof. If that is the case, how do you and supporting residents expect WP to adapt with future changing needs if the comprehensive plan is "set in stone," as seems to be the context? The conclusion I come to based on this series of posts is that maybe WP needs to take a look at its comprehehnsive plan and consider some adjustments, as opposed to the Carlisle requiring variances from it.

[eastbank]

The conclusion I come to based on this series of posts is that maybe WP needs to take a look at its comprehehnsive plan and consider some adjustments, as opposed to the Carlisle requiring variances from it.

That is precisely what is happening. The Comprehensive Plan is in the process of revision and updating - now that there is a new mayor. There is a Comprehensive Plan Task Force Committee is doing its work, and surveys have been mailed to ALL residents to get feedback on what the residents' vision is. The updated Comprehensive Plan will be the guide for development in Winter Park over the next ten years.

Design sheets have been drawn up, and there will be public hearings on June 21st and at the City Commission meeting on Monday, July 10th. The Comprehensive Plan will then be transmitted to the DCA for review and comment.

Nevertheless, the Carlisle received conditional approval under the pre-existing comprehensive plan -- based on several Marchman variances, (which also are not set in stone). They have NOT made a final presentation to the city, and are trying legal maneuvers to avoid the requirement of final approval before they break ground.

WHY? Well, that's a mystery to all, but the city has clearly stated, that if the developers don't make the final presentation and get final approval, there will be NO Carlisle.

And so the saga continues..

[neon9]

Ah yes, the Fifth Third project. Is it officially dead now? I understand how difficult it must have been - on that corner, despite commercial zoning, it is close enough to Windsong and enough multimillion dollar homes (Phelps area) that people would have raised a stink if that parcel was developed without some special touches. A new gateway at that intersection would be fantastic.

A lot of folks living around that area would prefer the sort of dilapadated run down and overgrown corner to just another bank-in a box, so the hurdles presented don't surprise me. I wonder what the future has in store for that spot?

Bingo. The Carlisle folks have some slick PR people working for them, twisting the truth, but our new mayor is hopefully going to stand his ground and hold them to their obligations, if they want to build at all.

No, it was actually AmSouth. This was several years ago, and we worked with the city extensively, but eventually they pulled the plug after so many revisions and so much extra cost. I guess they aren't the only bank to try and develop it.... Unfortunatly, it can be hard to redevelop anywhere, it's usually easier to work with large empty parcels in the 'burbs than already crammed lots made smaller by R-O-W takings and easements.

Well, they are thinking that it's easier to get things done with lawyers, and maybe PR also, but if what they are proposing is contrary to the stated code/plan then the city is on pretty solid legal ground. I've never put up much of a fight against vague code requirements with our projects, it's always easier to work with them...as you stated. Height requirements are pretty clear cut (much more so that 'the appearance of a flat roof shall be avoided' for instance).

Oh, and I gotta say..isn't talking up how Hannibal Square is near an 'ethnic' neighboorhood kind of gilding the lily a little? From what I have heard, the people from the neighboorhood aren't really welcome there anymore-they removed tables where they played cards for instance. From what I've seen, they couldn't afford to be seen in most of the shops and restaurants... That's life, but I'm just saying, I'm not sure they are so crazy about the changes...although those that own are probably going to be rich someday.

Edited May 5, 2006 by neon9

[eastbank]

Oh, and I gotta say..isn't talking up how Hannibal Square is near an 'ethnic' neighboorhood kind of gilding the lily a little? From what I have heard, the people from the neighboorhood aren't really welcome there anymore-they removed tables where they played cards for instance. From what I've seen, they couldn't afford to be seen in most of the shops and restaurants... That's life, but I'm just saying, I'm not sure they are so crazy about the changes...although those that own are probably going to be rich someday.

Truth be told, there has been some conflict between the old residents and the new development -- as is the case in most any area that becomes "gentrified." Except in this case, race is a factor in the equation. The same thing is going on near CityPlace apartments and revitalization projects around Parramore, for instance.

The city of WP, however, has taken a lot of steps to be respectful of the residents. Alcohol serving establishments in the area have last call at 11 to reduce traffic and noise for the residents. I believe an African American History museum is in the works, the forementioned splash style fountain was installed at great cost for the neighborhood's kids, and the community center and pool are receiving extensive upgrades. No one, to my knowledge, is being "forced out," and as you alluded to, those that are choosing to sell and move are profiting greatly. In addition, several new historic bungalow style homes have been built to house low income families in the area.

But, I mentioned all this as a comparison to Thornton Park. TP is a lot of things, but it doesn't have a historical context like Hannibal Square does. WP borders Eatonville, one of the oldest "black" townships in the USA, with its own proud history and the Zora Neale Hurston festival every year. Hannibal Square has a craft fair and annual events now, too, that celebrate its own unique history and sense of place. As a white person, I've never felt unwelcome at any of these gatherings. Good music, and good food, too.

The shops and buildings coming up lining west New England Ave will connect this area to Park Ave, and over to the new (and quite beautiful) Police and Fire Department building further north. Hannibal Square has quickly transformed from "the other side of teh tracks" to an area of diversity and unique history, one that is being integrated into WP's cultural identity.

Ten years ago Thornton Park was a *very* scary place. The homeless problem around Lake Eola was absoltuely out of control, the buildings were rotting, crime was high, and you couldn't give property away. Phil Rampy and others have changed all that, and its certainly a young-ish, yuppie-ish place to be now, and the location is great for downtown workers - and many of the historic homes have been nicely remodeled. But beyond that - its hard for me to see its "dynamic" qualities. ITs definitely louder than Hannibal Square, but its certainly less economically, racially, and culturally diverse than WP's west end.

So, is it gilding the lilly? I dunno. I suppose its a question of not only "what" is there, but also how you see it.

Cheers

eastbank

[prahaboheme]

But, I mentioned all this as a comparison to Thornton Park. TP is a lot of things, but it doesn't have a historical context like Hannibal Square does. WP borders Eatonville, one of the oldest "black" townships in the USA, with its own proud history and the Zora Neale Hurston festival every year. Hannibal Square has a craft fair and annual events now, too, that celebrate its own unique history and sense of place. As a white person, I've never felt unwelcome at any of these gatherings. Good music, and good food, too.

The shops and buildings coming up lining west New England Ave will connect this area to Park Ave, and over to the new (and quite beautiful) Police and Fire Department building further north. Hannibal Square has quickly transformed from "the other side of teh tracks" to an area of diversity and unique history, one that is being integrated into WP's cultural identity.

Ten years ago Thornton Park was a *very* scary place. The homeless problem around Lake Eola was absoltuely out of control, the buildings were rotting, crime was high, and you couldn't give property away. Phil Rampy and others have changed all that, and its certainly a young-ish, yuppie-ish place to be now, and the location is great for downtown workers - and many of the historic homes have been nicely remodeled. But beyond that - its hard for me to see its "dynamic" qualities. ITs definitely louder than Hannibal Square, but its certainly less economically, racially, and culturally diverse than WP's west end.

So, is it gilding the lilly? I dunno. I suppose its a question of not only "what" is there, but also how you see it.

Cheers

eastbank

There is something ironic in attacking Thornton Park for its "yuppie-ish" qualities and yet praising the gentrification of blighted Hannibal Square. Admitting Thornton Park's dynamicism is unnecessary, for it is an extension of Orlando's beautiful Lake Eola and a seemless transition into downtown Orlando. History aside (and that is questionable, though I like how you encompassed all of Eatonville and Hurston's accomplishments into the equation) Thornton Park/South Eola District is not only a better built environment now, with renovated historic structures as well as condos, restaurants, shops, etc., but its current proposals and u/c developments (including an urban Publix) only further set it apart as metro Orlando's hippest district. But to each his own I suppose, so while I'm at Hue's happy hour sipping martinis with my friends of all backgrounds, you can play in the Hannibal Square splash fountain as a gesture to show how white citizens of Winter Park now embrace the black citizens on the wrong side of the tracks.

Edited May 5, 2006 by prahaboheme

[bulldogger]

You just said that Thorton Park has evolved in the past decade, but you don't see what's dynamic about it.

Dynamic means something that is ever changing, energetic, evolving...

Winter Park hasn't changed that much in the past decade. It's exactly what you are fighting for with the towering 5 story buildings. No change, no progress, no evolution.

I don't find anything wrong with this. Personally, I like to see growth, so that's why I live in downtown Orlando. Winter Park is known for its small town charm and it really needs to keep that or the allure to this city is lost. That is why you live there.

-----------------

Repaving a street and remodeling a mall is hardly an evolution of WP. It is as much change as washing your clothes.

Part of Hannibal Square has been removing the outskirts of the black community to put in interior decorating shops, a wine store, etc. How is that keeping or making things culturally diverse? Pushing Park Ave west does not maintain the cultural integrity of the area. It's just more of the same stuff for a couple more blocks.

------------------

Winter Park (a whole city) has more to do than Thorton Park (a neighborhood) in Orlando. There is more culture in all of Winter Park than there is in a few blocks of Thornton Park. Apples and Oranges.

------------------

Enjoy your Oak trees at sunset. They make me sneeze. I would rather drive to Clearwater or better yet, Marco Island to see the sun set.

Peace

[eastbank]

There is something ironic in attacking Thornton Park for its "yuppie-ish" qualities and yet praising the gentrification of blighted Hannibal Square.

I didn't praise the gentrification of Hannibal Square as much as I noted the respectful manner with which the city of WP has addressed redevelopment. Orlando didn't have this concern during the gentrification of TP, as all it had to do was kick out the homeless - move the shelter, and ban the food kitchen from distributing near Lake Eola. Oh how respectful!!

Admitting Thornton Park's dynamicism is unnecessary, for it is an extension of Orlando's beautiful Lake Eola and a seemless transition into downtown Orlando.

Admitting? How about a simple example. I think "dynamicism" is a definition we also do not agree on.

Lake Eola is more of a southerly extension of Lake Eola Heights, IMO, than it is an extension of Thornton Park. And beautiful? Well, its nicer than it was, but the current bird poo problem and the dyed-blue water and piped in muzak are very, um, Disney-esque. As in pre-fab. Fake.

History aside (and that is questionable, though I like how you encompassed all of Eatonville and Hurston's accomplishments into the equation)

History was the point of the post, as well as culture. Eatonville is distinct from Hannibal Square, but not as much as you imply. They are directly contiguous and have the same resident demographics and shared history.

Thornton Park/South Eola District is not only a better built environment now, with renovated historic structures as well as condos, restaurants, shops, etc., but its current proposals and u/c developments (including an urban Publix) only further set it apart as metro Orlando's hippest district.

Umm, so I'm to be criticized for mentioning Eatonville in the same context as Hannibal Square in reference to history and culture, yet somehow you've now incorporated the Lake Eola Heights and South Eola District into "Thornton Park" ? Nope. Wrong neighborhood.

And as far as "hip" goes, if you define "hipness" by the presence of a Publix(??) and condo towers that have not yet been built, than we do not have the same definition of "hip." That's fine, its a subjective matter.

But the presence of a Publix won't make Thornton Park any more racially, economically, or culturally diverse. And its pretty hard to be hip when everyone and everything is the same.

But to each his own I suppose,

Indeed!!

so while I'm at Hue's happy hour sipping martinis with my friends of all backgrounds, you can play in the Hannibal Square splash fountain as a gesture to show how white citizens of Winter Park now embrace the black citizens on the wrong side of the tracks.

My my, how bitter! I'm surprised you didn't post a pic of you posing with your black friends to substantiate how diverse the crowd at Hue (barf) is!

Your cynical comment on the splash fountain aside, I see revitalization projects that take into account an area's historical and cultural context as a good thing. I suppose that isn't a consideration while you hang out at Hue, since there was never anything there to be mindful of or respectful toward.

If you must denigrate, insult, and look down upon someplace as inferior to feel good about downtown Orlando/Thornton Park, please, by all means, look down your nose at Hannibal Square and all of Winter Park. I suppose we'll never know the joy of a yuppie-trap in a concrete and dryvit box. We'll get over it. In the meantime, I don't see this "discussion" going anywhere constructive.

Edited May 5, 2006 by eastbank

[prahaboheme]

First I am declared "anti-sun" (which I always found paradoxical to my sexual preference and my search for the perfect tan, naturally) and now I'm declared a yuppie (by a Winter Park resident, no less!).

In reality, all I've declared is my genius.

btw, I never said I didn't like Winter Park. Who knows, I might buy a brand new pair of board shorts and check out that splash fountain myself on a balmy summer day.

[eastbank]

You just said that Thorton Park has evolved in the past decade, but you don't see what's dynamic about it.

Dynamic means something that is ever changing, energetic, evolving...

By your definition, every single location in Central FLA is "dynamic." By my definition, there has to be more to a place than a condo and a Starbucks and constant construction for it to be "dynamic."

Winter Park hasn't changed that much in the past decade. It's exactly what you are fighting for with the towering 5 story buildings. No change, no progress, no evolution.

You've misread the intent of my posts. I am completely in favor of change and progress. But in a delicate, village context, with a unique sense of place, I favor consideration, thought, and planning over change for the sake of change.

I'm in favor of the Carlisle. Just as soon as they tweak the design to comply with the Comprehensive Plan and undergo the final approval process. But not until then.

And of course WP hasn't changed much in the past decade, when compared to Celebration, Baldwin Park, or the until recently completely deserted downtown of Orlando. It has evolved *slowly* over 130 years. Its not for everyone. Thats OK with me.

Part of Hannibal Square has been removing the outskirts of the black community to put in interior decorating shops, a wine store, etc. How is that keeping or making things culturally diverse? Pushing Park Ave west does not maintain the cultural integrity of the area. It's just more of the same stuff for a couple more blocks.

That's absurd. No one is "removing" the black community. As has already been mentioned, the city sponsors street festivals celebrating the neighborhood's culture, a cultural history museum is coming up, low income housing has been built to retain the area's existing residents, and the community center is being expanded. Among many other things. I see no reason why adding retail to New England Ave necessarily excludes non-white cultures.

I see a revitalization project that has been respectful, mindful, and helpful to the west side. It is progress, and we're all for that, right? Or is progress now suddenly bad? Or should the city not have taken steps to integrate the historic community into the revitalization project? Or should we have just let it continue to rot into blight? Are you saying that revitalization and African American culture is mutually exclusive ?!?

IMO, The city is doing the right thing, and doing it well - with thought and respect.

Who would have thought that people in 2006 are unwilling to accept the idea that a neighborhood can integrate more than one race without someone "being forced out" or a race war starting. Like I said, absurd. There's room for everyone in Hannibal Square's future. Just because it has history doesn't mean it is segregated or chained to the past.

Winter Park (a whole city) has more to do than Thorton Park (a neighborhood) in Orlando. There is more culture in all of Winter Park than there is in a few blocks of Thornton Park. Apples and Oranges.

There is more cultural diversity and things to do in Hannibal Square than all of Thornton Park. Oranges to oranges. That's my opinion.

Enjoy your Oak trees at sunset. They make me sneeze. I would rather drive to Clearwater or better yet, Marco Island to see the sun set.

Thanks, I will! (Thankfully no allegy problems here). I prefer to walk to the park than to get in the car and fight I4 traffic, but to each his own, mate.

Cheers

eastbank

Edited May 5, 2006 by eastbank

[eastbank]

First I am declared "anti-sun" (which I always found paradoxical to my sexual preference and my search for the perfect tan, naturally) and now I'm declared a yuppie (by a Winter Park resident, no less!).

JRS1 is the person that said they didn't like sunsets or the sun.

And we're not all yuppies in WP - not by a long shot (though the image people perceive is one of exclusivity and wealth). That's what makes it dynamic, to me. Unlike someplace like Baldwin Park, where everyone earns the same salary, pays the same mortgage, and drives the same car, here in WP we have blacks, we have whites, we have ultrawealthy and borderline poverty all within sight of each other. I love the eclectic mix - a historic bungalow next to a lakefront mansion, a soul food restaurant across from a yuppie wine bar. Real estate capitalists next to artists' galleries. Dynamic!

Do check out the splash fountain this summer. Its a pretty cool addition to Shady Park!

[JRS1]

Yeah, I'm the pasty-white anti-sun guy.

I just drove by the Wellesley in College Park. You gotta be kidding me. The impact the Wellesley has on College Park is probably five times greater than the impact Carlysle will have on NY Ave. ANd it fits in perfectly there-- Suntrust will even have a drive thru within the parking structure behind it and close the drive thru at 441 and Princeton.

BTW, I prefer Baldwin's mix of residents over WP's; at least there, you don't have groups of gang-bangers shouting at your car as it drives by their house somewhere near New England west of Penn. Ave. and east of Denning at night.

Not to mince words, but that mix isn't "eclectic"; and it isn't dynamic either. You've got a lot of issues by the lenfth of your posts-- over what, one 5 story bldg. it is nimbyism.

-----

On a different note, since you seem to be so knowledgeable on WP matters, what are they planning to build across WP Village on Denning where they are doing demo?

[radiostatic102]

it is nimbyism.

-----

What does "nimbyism" mean? I've never bothered to ask before this, it seems to be a major point of contention in this series of posts. Thanks!

By the way, whatever changes they make in Winter Park, they CANNOT EVER change the boat tours. That is by far one of the best things to do in Orlando outside of Disney World.

[eastbank]

What does "nimbyism" mean? I've never bothered to ask before this, it seems to be a major point of contention in this series of posts. Thanks!

By the way, whatever changes they make in Winter Park, they CANNOT EVER change the boat tours. That is by far one of the best things to do in Orlando outside of Disney World.

"Not in my back yard."

Which I really do not think applies here, because as has been said again and again, I'm not against ANY of the current projects, I only object to elements that do not comply with the Comprehensive Plan, and the developer's attempts at circumventing the approval process.

"Nimby" is a cliched acronym that is thrown about - in this case, without any regard to the facts.

It is usually applied when people object to something like an airport or a nuke plant or a prison being built in their community. To apply it to objections over arcitectural or procedural details to a luxury condo - one of several already approved - is innaccurate and misleading. It is a weak attempt to dismiss counterarguments by labeling them with a perjorative, without addressing ANY of the substance of the discussion.

On Baldwin Park's: yes, it is MUCH more homogeneous, very "safe," very white, and very upper middle class. Some people prefer to be around only people just like themselves. As with much of the rest of this discussion, to each his own. If you need to see white faces to feel "safe," and need an "urban" Publix to feel "hip," to each his own. I personally don't find that very "dynamic."

Back on topic, however, NIMBYism has as much to do with the Carslyle as Inter-class struggle and the Hale-Bopp comet, which is to say, nothing.

[prahaboheme]

Do check out the splash fountain this summer. Its a pretty cool addition to Shady Park!

Sweet! I'll check it out so far as you can promise me that my Thornton Park-like quirkiness won't scare off the little kiddies and ghetto thugs splashing around in peaceful, utopian Hannibal Square serenity. I wouldn't want to compromise the vision of the comprehensive plan.

[JRS1]

"Not in my back yard."

Which I really do not think applies here, because as has been said again and again, I'm not against ANY of the current projects, I only object to elements that do not comply with the Comprehensive Plan, and the developer's attempts at circumventing the approval process.

"Nimby" is a cliched acronym that is thrown about - in this case, without any regard to the facts.

It is usually applied when people object to something like an airport or a nuke plant or a prison being built in their community. To apply it to objections over arcitectural or procedural details to a luxury condo - one of several already approved - is innaccurate and misleading. It is a weak attempt to dismiss counterarguments by labeling them with a perjorative, without addressing ANY of the substance of the discussion.

On Baldwin Park's: yes, it is MUCH more homogeneous, very "safe," very white, and very upper middle class. Some people prefer to be around only people just like themselves. As with much of the rest of this discussion, to each his own. If you need to see white faces to feel "safe," and need an "urban" Publix to feel "hip," to each his own. I personally don't find that very "dynamic."

Back on topic, however, NIMBYism has as much to do with the Carslyle as Inter-class struggle and the Hale-Bopp comet, which is to say, nothing.

If I'm white and a group of blacks are shouting at me and my girlfriend, you can take those neighbors and keep them in your neighborhood. I prefer to be around people that don't act like a bunch of assholes and mind their own business. And the risk is less that you'll get your car broken into if your neighbors have more money than you do. Use some GD common sense and stop implying racism in my comment. It doesn't mean that I would move to Bithlo where they are all white, but are instead white trash redneck hillbillies. If you think you are doing your civic duty by proclaiming that it's really neat to have shacks next to mansions, then keep on fooling yourself.

The only difference between you and these other forumers on this board is that you feel it necessary to type up entire essays on a 5 story bldg in WP and related issues whereas most of us are too busy to give a crap and respond with a freakin' thesis to your posts. J. H. C. on a popcicle stick.

NIMBYism does apply here. you said it yourself by using Park Place as an example of a large poorly planned development that has no retail open in it yet. In this case the "yard" is central park. I don't know who you are or who you work for, but I'm on NY Ave on a regular basis and drive the streets of WP daily. There's a lot of trash that needs to be taken out. and that trash is run-down bungalow houses east of Denning and west of Penn Ave.

How can you sit there and say that an urban Publix is not dynamic, but in the same breath say that a mansion next to a slum is? You talking about Paramount Publix, the holy grail of Orlando developments? If so, then every comment you have made to this point has been completely discredited by your own words.

[eastbank]

Sweet! I'll check it out so far as you can promise me that my Thornton Park-like quirkiness won't scare off the little kiddies and ghetto thugs splashing around in peaceful, utopian Hannibal Square serenity. I wouldn't want to compromise the vision of the comprehensive plan.

Great - please enjoy yourself, just don't let the sight of a few black faces (ghetto thugs??) scare you so much that you RUN back to the perfect, multicultural, "hip" utopian crowd at Hue.

Who knew that an independent municipality having a Comprehensive Plan would make so many non-residents angry, bitter, hostile, and critical !!

[prahaboheme]

Great - please enjoy yourself, just don't let the sight of a few black faces (ghetto thugs??) scare you so much that you RUN back to the perfect, multicultural, "hip" utopian crowd at Hue.

Who knew that an independent municipality having a Comprehensive Plan would make so many non-residents angry, bitter, hostile, and critical !!

Whoa, I was simply being witty and a bit charming. You, having now lost all restraint and unwilling to accept defeat, force me to resign. I thus concur.

[eastbank]

The only difference between you and these other forumers on this board is that you feel it necessary to type up entire essays on a 5 story bldg in WP and related issues whereas most of us are too busy to give a crap and respond with a freakin' thesis to your posts. J. H. C. on a popcicle stick

If my posts are too long for you or cover too much detail, feel free not to read them or participate in the discussion.

If you are so irritated and offended by someone who feels passionately about a subject posting to a group to have an intelligent discussion with other urban planning minded folks, then why participate?

I see no need to villify or insult me personally because you disagree, or "don't give a crap."

That's the difference between you and me I suppose. I DO "give a crap."

I see no need to straighten out your twisted and somewhat racist views on dynamicism and electicism, since you "don't give a crap" and seem to be so worked up that you cannot post on the subject without using insults and profanities.

Leave the urban planning discussion for people who DO care, and who can discuss a subject like an adult.

[JRS1]

Great - please enjoy yourself, just don't let the sight of a few black faces (ghetto thugs??) scare you so much that you RUN back to the perfect, multicultural, "hip" utopian crowd at Hue.

Who knew that an independent municipality having a Comprehensive Plan would make so many non-residents angry, bitter, hostile, and critical !!

They should kick you off of this forum for implying racism yet again.

A good majority of my clients are black. It doesn't mean I'm going to embrace a group of gang-bangers shouting obscenities while I'm driving down their street late in the evening just to satisfy your definition of how whites should embrace blacks in WP or whatever it is that you are trying to imply.

ANd its you who are critical; everyone is just reacting to your comments. And the Comprehensive Plan isn't what people are irritated with here; its your attitude. And I, for one, am a WP resident. 32789. not an outsider reacting to local WP politics.

[JRS1]

If my posts are too long for you or cover too much detail, feel free not to read them or participate in the discussion.

If you are so irritated and offended by someone who feels passionately about a subject posting to a group to have an intelligent discussion with other urban planning minded folks, then why participate?

I see no need to villify or insult me personally because you disagree, or "don't give a crap."

That's the difference between you and me I suppose. I DO "give a crap."

I see no need to straighten out your twisted and somewhat racist views on dynamicism and electicism, since you "don't give a crap" and seem to be so worked up that you cannot post on the subject without using insults and profanities.

Leave the urban planning discussion for people who DO care, and who can discuss a subject like an adult.

Let's get one thing straight: "giving a crap" applies to mincing words with you personally and your "spin" on things, not about the subject-matter, which WAS the Carlysle. You've got way too many issues and this forum is no place to voice those issues.

BTW, I have an MAURP. Do you know what that is? Its a Masters in Urban Planning. It means that I might know a thing or two about the subject. It also means that if I don't see the need for a particular discussion about urban planning, its not b/c I don't have an interest in it, its b/c I don't see the point in wasting everyone else's time by mincing words with you personally.

So I'm racist now b/c I complained b/c a group of blacks were shouting at me when I was driving by one night on New England? You're the one who's got twisted racist views.

[eastbank]

They should kick you off of this forum for implying racism yet again.

A good majority of my clients are black. It doesn't mean I'm going to embrace a group of gang-bangers shouting obscenities while I'm driving down their street late in the evening just to satisfy your definition of how whites should embrace blacks in WP or whatever it is that you are trying to imply.

ANd its you who are critical; everyone is just reacting to your comments. And the Comprehensive Plan isn't what people are irritated with here; its your attitude. And I, for one, am a WP resident. 32789. not an outsider reacting to local WP politics.

That's right. My posts are too long, and too thoughtful, and you're too busy to "give a crap" and can't stand having someone comment on your racist and elitist views, so get me banned. Good tactic!

And I'm not implying racism in your comments, I'm stating it directly. Some kids yell at your car, and because they have a different color skin, they are automatically "gang bangers." Sad. And by extension, because of this, Hannibal Square is some sort of crime pit ghetto? Sad. And the bungalows are "trash" that need to be "removed"? Elitist. Racist. And you don't want to live next to someone with a different economic status because you're afraid your precious car will be broken into? Yikes.

Obviously you have a real problem with people that have a different background than you. You said don't want to live near them, and you apparently feel justified in labeling who and what they are by their skin color and location and income.

I don't see why you live in 32789. Given your stated viewpoints on racial and economic diversity, your desire to be around people the same as you, your fear for your car, etc., it seems you would be much happier in some beige box in a subdivision in the 'burbs where everyone makes the same amount of money as you. Or Baldwin Park.

Congrats on being an "insider." I'm glad you are in the minority here.

You've got way too many issues and this forum is no place to voice those issues.

I'm not really interested in your opinion on me personally, and the forum is not the place to attack me personally becuase you don't like by viewpoint on the Carlyle and the Comp. plan.

BTW, I have an MAURP. Do you know what that is? Its a Masters in Urban Planning. It means that I might know a thing or two about the subject. It also means that if I don't see the need for a particular discussion about urban planning, its not b/c I don't have an interest in it, its b/c I don't see the point in wasting everyone else's time by mincing words with you personally.

I am unimpresssed. You and your MAURP get one vote, and so do I, and so do the blacks in Hannibal Square. Your opinion is not more valid because of some piece of paper. In fact, a vain attempt like that to toot your own horn smacks of elitism. Again.

So I'm racist now b/c I complained b/c a group of blacks were shouting at me when I was driving by one night on New England?

No, you're a racist because you directly assumed and called them "gang bangers," rather than seeing them just as a bunch of unruly kids. Sad.

Anyway, I'm not interested in discussing YOUR zip code, YOUR degrees, YOUR elitism and YOUR race relation issues. If you don't want to "waste everyone's time" on this unimportant topic, email me personally or better yet, just move on with your life like an adult.

BACK ON TOPIC: The Carslyle needs to compromise with the new mayor, the majority of voters, and the comp. plan, and undergo final approval. Until then, you can stomp your feet and call people names, yell nimby, try to get me banned, whatever...it won't be built until SOME compromise is made. End of story.

Cheers

eastbank