Other Metro Area Projects

[JRS1]

^ I agree with you Bic.

I'm extremely happy to see Altamonte densifying, but dense does not necessarily equal urban. This is still an area that nearly everyone MUST drive to and from. From what I've seen, these denser developments do very little as far as overall connectivity at the street level. It's still a crappy street grid, and isolated, due to the surrounding sprawl.

If you want to see a "good" example of creating an urban destination from suburban sprawl, look no further than Dadeland, in the Miami area: transit oriented, connected, very mixed-use, and much more urban in street interaction.

Oh please, take away Metrorail station at Datran and its no different than Altamonte, save for a 3 year jump start in development.

And how connected can it be at street level and to where? If you try to cross US 1 you'll get cut down like in the video game Frogger. Try going to the Toys R Us from Dadeland Mall. Good Luck. There's also an expressway ramp around the back which is yet another boundary. And the northern border of the Dadeland Mall is a canal which separates it from the site of that new development that's proposed or U/C.

I am a huge admirer of Dadeland area, don't get me wrong. I think the Metropolis towers are awesome as is the other development there. However, Dadeland was nothing more than a huge tract of developable land between the mall and Dadeland Station up until 3 years ago. That tract of land is connected at street level to only one place--- itself and the mall, both of which are on the same side of US 1 as each other.

Altamonte is no different save for transit. However, its advantage is that the back side of the mall has Cranes Roost and the parkway which connects to Palm Springs to the east, and the other side of I-4 to the west, which is all retail on Douglas and residential beyond. And there is already heavy residential behind the mall.

I just don't get why you all are even taking issue with what I said about it becoming heavily urbanized. And the example of comparing it to a Kansas flatland is a little bit of a stretch, Bic. And the photo comparing it to a city os scyscrapers is also a stretch. I mean, with that photo in mind, you can't even call Miami "heavily urbanized."

I think if Altamonte was a suburb somewhere else, you all wouldn't be picking apart what I said so much. I see what you all are saying, but you gotta be more objective.

[bulldogger]

Oh please, take away Metrorail station at Datran and its no different than Altamonte, save for a 3 year jump start in development.

Is there a Shorty's BBQ coming to Altamonte?

[JRS1]

Is there a Shorty's BBQ coming to Altamonte?

dangit. you got me. Dadeland is better. (it is, actually)

[bulldogger]

Speaking of Altamonte Springs growth, does anyone know where they plan on putting their rail station?

[Topher1]

I just don't get why you all are even taking issue with what I said about it becoming heavily urbanized... And the photo comparing it to a city os scyscrapers is also a stretch. I mean, with that photo in mind, you can't even call Miami "heavily urbanized."

This is of course all a bit nit-picky, but "heavily urbanized" is just such a strong phrase. I agree with you about Miami too... Miami is NOT heavily urbanized, and many of the new projects aren't adding much to the total urbanity of the city (just the density)... The city just doesn't shine at street level yet...

The only truly "heavily urbanized" (over a substantial area) location in Florida is South Beach, IMO. Expanding that to the entire south, I'd only add New Orleans, peninsular Charleston, and Savannah (the latter two furthering the example that tower density is not the deciding factor in urbanity)...

I can't wait to see what Altamonte is becoming. To be honest, these projects aren't very visible through the vast surface lots from 436, so my statements on visibility and connectivity are coming from that perspective. The new urban Dadeland exists for a reason - the transit. It is a destination with tons of office space as well as tons of shopping. It makes perfect sense to dramatically increase the residential in the area, and the infrastructure is there to support it.

I'm really just nervous that Altamonte is developing as an answer to Dadeland, but without the single factor that drives Dadeland.. the transit... Also missing is the substantial high-rise office space. There's plenty of Maitland/Lake Mary style crappy suburban office park buildings with huge surface lots planned, but the true live/work aspect is missing... Also, the walkability is extremely inconsistent, with some nice parts (downtown Altamonte) but quite a bit of dead spots (the surface parking and the ENTIRE Emerson development).. In short, this does not look to be developing into a sustainable, walkable, car-optional urban center. The good parts of these plans are reminiscent of Winter Park Village (which is mediocre at best, IMO), and the bad parts, well, really bad suburban development, but in highrise form...

Of course, nothing would make me happier than for my rant to be proven wrong.

[Topher1]

And just to dwell on Dadeland a little more, I'm much more impressed with these plans:

than these:

or worse yet, these:

The redevelopment of Dadeland is truly in a different league and really should be viewed as a model of how to redevelop a former suburban wasteland. It is definately still ongoing, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it extend across the 826 in the future, and bring new pedestrian access points with it... There's already 2 bridge crossings at the mall over the Snapper Creek canal that was mentioned (one pedestrian and one car), and I wouldn't be surprised to see more once more Dadeland North developments are completed...

[facilities man]

Why?

I'll give you the fact that the Dadeland model is 100 times better, but I count 11 highrises and about 8 midrise buildings. Altamonte will have 13 highrises and about 8 or 9 midrise buildings. Not to mention a park and lake as a focal point, and numerous 2 and three story apartment and condo properties within walking distance. I also see this spreading across I-4 in the years to come.

[neon9]

Why?

I'll give you the fact that the Dadeland model is 100 times better, but I count 11 highrises and about 8 midrise buildings. Altamonte will have 13 highrises and about 8 or 9 midrise buildings. Not to mention a park and lake as a focal point, and numerous 2 and three story apartment and condo properties within walking distance. I also see this spreading across I-4 in the years to come.

More than just the count of buildings (and how many are actually under construction?), it appears the entire development is built around the car. Look at how every building is bunched up on the access road with huge parking lots behind them. I'd have to agree with whomever said that it's alot like Winter Park Village. All accessed off that monumental waste of time, State Road 436.

Although admittedly, I am a little biased against the city. I have never encountered a municipality that is worse about telling you they won't accept what you're proposing and won't listen to your arguments that it's the best solution because 'it's in their code'.

My company automatically charges about 25% extra for any job there since we've had so much trouble with them. Not that there aren't good people there, but....let's just say I laugh every time I see their motto.

(it's 'People helping people' or something like that)

[JRS1]

I like that 3D rendering, Topher. Its really cool.

Dadeland won't look like that for many more years to come. And Dadeland's development is, as you said, integrated with Metrorail, which is the only reason they are developing there, or at least the main reason. And I think that's great. I'm a huge proponent of all things Dade.

Altamonte is a city and has been so for many decades. If Commuter Rail gets built as planned, I don't think the station will be at the TC; I think it will be near Reagan Blvd/ 427, which is the trad. downtown.

Miami-Dade has 2.5M people. THis is Seminole County. Less than 500K. Maybe less than 400K. It goes without saying that any similar project in Dade should be way bigger.

But like I said about connectivity, Alta. TC is already more connected into the surrounding neighborhoods than Dadeland. You can't use Dadeland as a model of how to do it right based on this factor... Yes, both have a big mall, hotels, office bldgs, condos, and apts. Altamonte also has FH next to Mimi's Cafe and their expansion. And Alta. Mall ala Palm Springs Dr. connects back towards neighboring Longwood, and Central Pkwy or whatever connects to the west side of I-4 into the neighborhoods and Douglas Rd. retail corridor, which also connects up to Longwood.

Dadeland's biggest ally is Metrorail and the nearby Dadeland North station and retail complex. This could end up being an extremely huge development before its all said and done.

WHat Alta. needs, IMO, other than a train, is a few overpasses above 436 to connect the TC to the south side of 436 and that retail there. 436 is murder. 436 is Dadeland's US 1.

Noone's knocking Dadeland.

And as for Neon9's comments about the car, what do you think those Dadeland towers are sitting on top of? There's more in terms of parking and garages at Dadeland than in most mid-sized Florida cities' downtowns. And 436 is no different than US 1 with regards to congestion.

[jnorlando]

I had heard that the Altamonte Town Center/Altamonte Mall WOULD incorporate future passenger rail

[bic]

State denies Nemours' bid for children's hospital

The Florida Agency for Health Care Administration on Friday denied Nemours Foundation's application to build a $250 million, 95-bed children's hospital in Orlando.

AHCA also turned down Nemours' requests for level 2 and level 3 neonatal intensive care units in Orlando.

Orlando Business Journal Article

[prahaboheme]

If the Altamonte project proves successful those parking lots will get eaten up with development eventually.

[neon9]

And as for Neon9's comments about the car, what do you think those Dadeland towers are sitting on top of? There's more in terms of parking and garages at Dadeland than in most mid-sized Florida cities' downtowns. And 436 is no different than US 1 with regards to congestion.

True about US1. However, the parking is precisely what is different about those projects, at least from the information provided. Admittedly, I haven't really been in Altamonte lately.

[jnorlando]

I wish Emerson would change up the designs of their condos, and planned office and hotel buildings a little bit. I'm concerned that the current plans are going to look awfully boring if the designs remain as is.

[JRS1]

I wish Emerson would change up the designs of their condos, and planned office and hotel buildings a little bit. I'm concerned that the current plans are going to look awfully boring if the designs remain as is.

mixed bag: I like that they are developing; I just don't really care for the design. At least the TC bldgs. across Cranes Roost will look better.

[jnorlando]

mixed bag: I like that they are developing; I just don't really care for the design. At least the TC bldgs. across Cranes Roost will look better.

I agree with you JRS1. Also, if you zoom in on the TC site plan, there is a hotel mentioned next to the park towers. Anyone know anything about that? You can see a full sized image at uptownaltamonte

[facilities man]

I agree with you JRS1. Also, if you zoom in on the TC site plan, there is a hotel mentioned next to the park towers. Anyone know anything about that? You can see a full sized image at uptownaltamonte

I'm not sure, but I think that is actually the second tower for park towers. Maybe conceptually it was first envisioned to be a hotel. Emerson also plans a highrise hotel between their first couple condo towers and the majesty building. That should take care of the hotel needs in this area.

[JRS1]

I agree with you JRS1. Also, if you zoom in on the TC site plan, there is a hotel mentioned next to the park towers. Anyone know anything about that? You can see a full sized image at uptownaltamonte

Yeah, also, I see a couple of parking decks opposite the retail in this plan, as well as the apt. bldg. parking deck. I also like how they are incorporating this into that Marchall's plaza and the neighboring plaza's adjacent to Altamonte Mall, which you can access without getting on 436 now, BTW. I like the direction this is going in and I feel strongly that this will strengthen the overall Orlando condo/redevelopment market. I really do.

[facilities man]

I walked around Cranes Roost last night. The park has finally reopend, but there's still a lot of construction going on for the Town Center, (Uptown Altamonte). From the looks of things construction will be a constant for a couple years yet. So far it is much nicer than I had anticipated. The quality of the amenities in the park are Disney level, very nice. The area looks like it will compete with Baldwin Park. It's already nicer than Winter Park Village. It's still lacking in restaurants though. That's the part just getting under construction now. The condo and apartment buildings look much larger walking by at ground level than they do speeding by on I-4. This project is raising Altamonte Springs to a new level. The Park Towers condo's appear to be starting ground work now. When they go up and the restaurants are finished Uptown Altamonte will become a major destination.

[JRS1]

I walked around Cranes Roost last night. The park has finally reopend, but there's still a lot of construction going on for the Town Center, (Uptown Altamonte). From the looks of things construction will be a constant for a couple years yet. So far it is much nicer than I had anticipated. The quality of the amenities in the park are Disney level, very nice. The area looks like it will compete with Baldwin Park. It's already nicer than Winter Park Village. It's still lacking in restaurants though. That's the part just getting under construction now. The condo and apartment buildings look much larger walking by at ground level than they do speeding by on I-4. This project is raising Altamonte Springs to a new level. The Park Towers condo's appear to be starting ground work now. When they go up and the restaurants are finished Uptown Altamonte will become a major destination.

wow.

and speaking of WP Village, they cleared a huge lot across Denning-- I think that's where a big resid. development is going.

[sunshine]

The Emerson plaza condo right next to I4 is a very horrible looking building. Looks like one of those old condo building in downtown Orlando. I guess we will have to welcome Altamonte Spring to the 1980s.

[facilities man]

The Emerson plaza condo right next to I4 is a very horrible looking building. Looks like one of those old condo building in downtown Orlando. I guess we will have to welcome Altamonte Spring to the 1980s.

You need to see it from the perspective of the park. Totally different presentation from the front of the building. When you drive by on I-4 you are looking at the back of the building, which I would think would be designed to minimize the effect of the proximity of I-4. The second building just getting started looks to be less than 20 feet away from the first. When you are in the park the closeness of the buildings and their angles will block most of the view of I-4.

[JRS1]

Innovation Way and the Burnham Institute and UCF Medical School:

I heard a report on TV13 last week that sounded like they said that the County or an agency within OC did not approve Innovation Way. Did anyone hear anything about this? And does anyone know anything about those other two projects?

[keone]

Innovation Way and the Burnham Institute and UCF Medical School:

I heard a report on TV13 last week that sounded like they said that the County or an agency within OC did not approve Innovation Way. Did anyone hear anything about this? And does anyone know anything about those other two projects?

I think you're talking about the County's decision to require job commitments before homes can be built:

Orange County's decision to require job commitments before homes can be built in its proposed high-tech corridor could kill the planned expansion of Central Florida Research Park, the park's chief said Friday.

...

In approving the development of Innovation Way, a high-tech corridor that would bisect east Orange County, the County Commission said it wants developers to recruit employers before they build homes for prospective employees.

Link to Article

[orlandonative]

Not that it really makes much difference in the world, but Emerson 2 seems to be moving ahead very nicely with their new tower. Has anyone been to the other side of the lake to check that one site (real descriptive), but I think everyone knows which one I mean.