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This issue is so embarassing. The fact that taxpayers will have to pay for this not to be built is really disgraceful.

I think you pro-development at any cost people are missing essential elements to the story. The mayor was *elected* _specfically_ on the issue of the Carlyle and protecting Central Park. The *majority* of WP voters support his vision for controlled growth and limitations on building proximate to the park.

Furthermore, not ONE CENT of taxpayer money would be spent to pay off the developers. Strong called on members of the community to voluntarily contribute - and put their $$ where their mouth is, if you will. He followed that call by donating $100,000 of his own personal money. He is to be comended for his altruism, fulfilling his promise to voters, and standing up to those that would pave over public space for personal profit.

Finally, as a bonus, WPK residents would get: a brand new post office, a brand new expanded library, and Central Park itself would gain 33% more acreage. All financed by the sale of the current, valuable library parcel and donations. Winter Park loves this idea. The only people not pleased are those that sought personal profit from the Carlyle project.

The way this board villifies and denigrates democratic self-determination, careful planning, and misstates or glosses over essential facts is just unbelievable. One wonders why, since most posters don't even live in WPK.

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The way this board villifies and denigrates democratic self-determination, careful planning, and misstates or glosses over essential facts is just unbelievable. One wonders why, since most posters don't even live in WPK.

Yes, that is exactly what is happening here. :rolleyes:

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Furthermore, not ONE CENT of taxpayer money would be spent to pay off the developers. Strong called on members of the community to voluntarily contribute - and put their $$ where their mouth is, if you will. He followed that call by donating $100,000 of his own personal money. He is to be comended for his altruism, fulfilling his promise to voters, and standing up to those that would pave over public space for personal profit.

Strong knows damn well that the $18m will never be raised. His $100K is not at risk and he knows that too. He will be able to go to go to the electorate and say I gave it my best shot. ... and the Carlyle will go up.

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Strong knows damn well that the $18m will never be raised. His $100K is not at risk and he knows that too. He will be able to go to go to the electorate and say I gave it my best shot. ... and the Carlyle will go up.

Exactly

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The way this board villifies and denigrates democratic self-determination, careful planning, and misstates or glosses over essential facts is just unbelievable. One wonders why, since most posters don't even live in WPK.

Careful planning? What does careful planning have to do with the Carlysle? This was basically approved already according to the Planning and Zoning regulations of the City. If careful planning had been involved, it would seem as though this would never have gotten this far.

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Careful planning? What does careful planning have to do with the Carlysle? This was basically approved already according to the Planning and Zoning regulations of the City. If careful planning had been involved, it would seem as though this would never have gotten this far.

Good question. The answer is that the project received *preliminary* approval from a P&Z board corrupted by the influence of people like Alan Keen, Hal Kantor, Doug Guetzloe, and Kip Marchman. Read the Orlando SEntinel to learn what kind of upstanding citizens this people are.

And truth be told, that preliminary approval did NOT meet the requirements of the City's Comprehensive Master Plan.

The people spoke up. The politics changed.

So, too, did the final plans for the building. They increased the size by over 30,000 sq feet! Thus, the P&Z board has recommended DENIAL of final approval.

If we weren't careful and thoughtful, we'd be stuck with a huge ugly dryvit box that is completely out of place, such as on Edgewater in College Park.

Thank GOD the voters in WPK spoke up. I still don't see why people who don't have any connection to WPK are soooo up in arms about residents guiding development as they see fit.

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Strong knows damn well that the $18m will never be raised. His $100K is not at risk and he knows that too. He will be able to go to go to the electorate and say I gave it my best shot. ... and the Carlyle will go up.

They need raise only 5.5M through donations, not 18.

Furthermore, if this park-expanding, village-scale-preserving deal falls through, the Carlyle won't simply "go up." The city WILL deny final approval, and the developers will sue the city, as a last resort.

The city, and concerned residents, will easily tie it up in court for another 2 or 3 years. Because of the material departures from the originally approved plans, I predict that is a case the developers will lose. People have been saying it "WILL" be built for nearly a half decade now. Funny, I haven't seen one shovel of dirt moved yet.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. Resistance to the corrupt profiteering cabal is far from over.

Amazing how adamant people are that developers should have the right to build anywhere they want, despite the organized opposition of the majority of residents and taxpayers .... and that they should have a right to exploit and overdevelop on LAND THAT THEY DO NOT EVEN OWN!!

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I love the Wellesly in College Park, more should be built.

I think it's pretty fugly. I don't like the colors they chose, and the stone facade really bugs me. Something about it just doesn't look right.

Anyone else know what I'm talking about?

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I think it's pretty fugly. I don't like the colors they chose, and the stone facade really bugs me. Something about it just doesn't look right.

Anyone else know what I'm talking about?

Yes. And you can see a massive air conditioning unit sitting on the roof from far away. Ugly.

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I do not mind if the project is not built. I am a Downtown Orlando guy, and if projects like this fail for whatever reason, so be it. The only concern I have is commuter rail and my ability to go to Park Ave without driving. The Mayor was elected to combat projects like this and I hope he succeeds. The electorate has spoken.

Edited by jack

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A commuter stop in Winter Park would benefit the shop owners and customers along Park Ave. Lets hope a few sour grapes don't kill a project that will not only benefit the residents in the immediate area of the station, but also the region as a whole.

Also, generally I love the Wellesley (a few of the colors are questionable). It may seem out of place right now, but not for long.

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A commuter stop in Winter Park would benefit the shop owners and customers along Park Ave. Lets hope a few sour grapes don't kill a project that will not only benefit the residents in the immediate area of the station, but also the region as a whole.

Your conclusions about a light rail stop in WPK, though seemingly intuitive, are not supported by the data Orange County has shown so far.

If WPK opts out of having a light rail stop, it won't be because of "a few sour grapes," it will be because the *majority* of residents democratically voted against it.

Further, WPK electing not to have a LR stop will NOT "kill" the project. No part of the coming LR system is dependent on WPK's participation.

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Your conclusions about a light rail stop in WPK, though seemingly intuitive, are not supported by the data Orange County has shown so far.

If WPK opts out of having a light rail stop, it won't be because of "a few sour grapes," it will be because the *majority* of residents democratically voted against it.

Further, WPK electing not to have a LR stop will NOT "kill" the project. No part of the coming LR system is dependent on WPK's participation.

When did an outspoken minority become a majority?

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When did an outspoken minority become a majority?

When an election is held, as it will be (I signed the petition and it has since been certified), and the residents/taxpayers decide the issue for themselves, you will see what the majority position is. Ask Kip Marchman about that "outspoken minority" !! LOL! Eckbert and Storer are the next to go.

When did you become a pollster capable of determining what the minority/majority position is, *without* a democratic election?

Have no fear. Democracy will function and the voters will be heard, one way or another.

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When did you become a pollster capable of determining what the minority/majority position is, *without* a democratic election?

Call it a hunch. One can hope the narcissistic arrogance of a few Winter Park residents is not a city-wide phenomenon. Though, like you've admitted, the democratic process will reveal such manners in due time.

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Call it a hunch. One can hope the narcissistic arrogance of a few Winter Park residents is not a city-wide phenomenon. Though, like you've admitted, the democratic process will reveal such manners in due time.

Lots of people had a "hunch" that Marchman would be easily re-elected and that the Carlyle would already have been built. So much for hunches!

I guess there are more than a "few" Winter Park residents that agree with the Stong/OneWinterPark platform. Indeed, those "few" turned out to be the majority.

It is too bad you cannot see democratic self-determination as anything but "narcissistic arrogance."

Thankfully, as an independent municipality in a democratic nation, Winter Park residents who wish to preserve the historic character of their city, will not have growth mangement and transport planning issues dictated to them by self-centered urban sprawl commuters, county bureaucrats, or class-warfare socialists.

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I live in Winter Park and have not seen a petition going around. I can't wait for this vote, because I will make my mark in favor of a rail stop. The Winter Park crusties can keep their pants in a wod and not pay a penny to have commuter rail run through and keep most of the CSX traffic out. The current Amtrak rail station is a shambles and no one is doing anything to make Amtrak upgrade their station to reflect the improvements to the surrounding areas. What is the fear of having a commuter rail stop? It's not like the homeless of downtown Orlando are going to buy tickets and go to WP and start begging on the streets of Park Avenue. I don't get it. I would just like to know a logical argument against a rail stop. I do see why some may not want a Carlisle (sp?), but that is completely different from this issue.

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It is too bad you cannot see democratic self-determination as anything but "narcissistic arrogance."

Thankfully, as an independent municipality in a democratic nation, Winter Park residents who wish to preserve the historic character of their city, will not have growth mangement and transport planning issues dictated to them by self-centered urban sprawl commuters, county bureaucrats, or class-warfare socialists.

Quagmire, period.

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I live in Winter Park and have not seen a petition going around. I can't wait for this vote, because I will make my mark in favor of a rail stop. The Winter Park crusties can keep their pants in a wod and not pay a penny to have commuter rail run through and keep most of the CSX traffic out. The current Amtrak rail station is a shambles and no one is doing anything to make Amtrak upgrade their station to reflect the improvements to the surrounding areas. What is the fear of having a commuter rail stop? It's not like the homeless of downtown Orlando are going to buy tickets and go to WP and start begging on the streets of Park Avenue. I don't get it. I would just like to know a logical argument against a rail stop. I do see why some may not want a Carlisle (sp?), but that is completely different from this issue.

First, Amtrak is a Federal entity, and the City cannot force Amtrak (an economically failing entity) to action.

The petition drive has already ended successfully and there will be 2 votes: whether city money may be spent at all on any LR station, and also whether such station should be located in the CBD.

The simplified argument against LR: City Taxpayer Costs, Commuter Parking Needs, & Impact on Central Park.

Polling data indicates the vast majority of WP residents will NOT use the system to commute (less than 2%). It will mainly serve commuters in outlying suburbs. To build such a station, property taxes for ALL WP residents will increase, forever. Constructing a LR station on the CSX tracks will also pave over a portion of our prized park. Commuters seeking to enter the LR system in WPK will add traffic and consume parking spaces in the retail district without contributing to the retail economy. The increased parking will also destroy greenspace. And the polling data indicates that those that shop on the Avenue overwhelmingly will still arrive by private car, and will not take public transport to shop at the boutiques.

We don't even have answers to many imporant questions. There is not even any indication that LR will run on the weekends -- during WPK's busiest visitor days. There is little to no info available about the noise impact on the park and traffic impact of train traffic. Would other areas of Winter Park, like WP Village, be more suitable for a rail stop? How will our police department be impacted? What additional security is necessary? What ancillary costs will residents have to fund? Is the purpose of a Commuter Rail Stop in Winter Park for tourism or is it for "commuting residents to the urban core?"

There needs to be a lot of discussion and planning before WP simply jumps aboard without knowing the costs/impacts. Its a nice idea, but we need to plan to deal with the reality, not the fairytale.

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All these polls are just made to gear toward the results they want to attain.

I suppose most of the downtown Orlando residents would not use the train either.

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I agree WP would be a destination. I agree downtown folks would probably not use it either except Disney folks if they have convienent dedicated shuttle service from the Osceola Station, like adding another Disney Run transportation and ticket center hub at that station. Then when the OIA connector is in place, more folks. It was so easy taking MARTA to ATL and back again.

So don't build the station in accordance with the wishes of the residents. The station would in all likelyhood not add trips significantly. After the OIA connector is in place, perhaps attitudes will change. Now it probably would just siphon off folks who would otherwise be heading to downtown because of the convienence. Revitalize the Exchange and Marketplace even more after 55 West has had her impact, there is the opportunity for more downtown retail with the ability to bring more feet without cars into the CBD. The other retail, resturants, and multi-plex will pull people east from Church Street.

Winter Park is competition for shopping and leasure dollars. Living downtown, I'm fine with them wishing to be by-passed.

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