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accatt2204

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I would think the whole point of such a development is to get things back to a 'human scale', i.e. homes, goods and services (reasonably priced), and of course jobs, in an area you could walk or bike to. Seaside is ok as the vacation destination it is, but I'm not sure I get the point of Celebration. Is it a vacation place near Disney? Or is it a place where people can actually live? Are there people who live there and work nearby?

And this is no fault of Celebration/Disney, but why is such a development unique? It's sure a big improvement over some other places in the Orlando area. However, the overall layout of the place could have been planned better in my opinion.

I don't really care if they have celebrity architects, I'd just like something designed for our climate and to the site it is built on. That was relatively well done in Seaside, I'm not so sure about Celebration.

neon9, people live and work in Celebration.

And while you may not care that celebrity architects have designed buildings in Celebration, that was really not the point I was making. All cities have buildings designed by familar architects, I was simply pointing out that many of Orlando's architectural contributions to the world lie within Celebration's borders. It is nice to see that some aspire to greatness even in sprawling areas.

I agree with you that Seaside is a better planned, better implemented new urbanist town. It was the first, and remains the best. However, it is important to note that every building in Seaside, down to the smallest bungalow, is also designed by a well known architect. This fact alone makes these places unique.

Edited by prahaboheme
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I'm curious, what is your criticism of Celebration?

I know a lot of people on here are into the whole planned community thing, but I just don't see the point in saying that a community is built like that. Celebration is Pleasantville to me. Building these "park" communities trying to replace a lost childhood of the babyboomers will not happen. People only move from their house, to the garage, to their SUV, to the road, to work and back again. They have yards, but don't use them. Neighbors don't talk to each other. Everyone is removed. To me, Celebration is the pinnacle of these park communities. I think Celebration looks nice, but I think it is CHEEZZZZYYYY.

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I like the New Urban/TND principles a lot. But sticking a TND in the middle of nowhere, far from any significant job base or transit, i.e. Celebration, completely defeats the purpose. Sure, perhaps of few of the residents work in the various suburbanized Celebration office parks and a lot are Disney cast-members, but in general these people are all getting in their cars to go to work and spending a lot more time on the roads than their counterparts in the less-cutesy Baldwin Park...

I suppose I'm echoing the other criticizers, but location and accessibility are, IMO, even more important than the interior design of the neighborhood. I find the exterior accessibility of Celebration excessively hostile; far less inviting than even the most generic of subdivisions throughout the east/northeast sides of town that I'm most familiar with. Is it even possible to leave Celebration (and reach any decent destinations) by foot or bicycle?

As an aside, in my hometown (Augusta, GA), a TND is under development directly across the river from downtown. It emphasizes pedestrian accessibility, extending the street grid, public access to all desirable locations (specifically the riverfront), and convenient access to jobs and services. That is, IMO, the focus that New Urban communities should try to have. They should be an integral part of the community, not an insular community to themselves. Baldwin Park is the closest example Orlando has, and if the previously rumored Lymmo route ever pans out (or better yet, light rail), then that would be a redevelopment model I'd like to see around Orlando.

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Sooo...looks like a lot of dirt is being turned on the Park Towers project in Altamonte Springs (at least for the east tower). Probably just trying to keep the building permit, but movement none the less.

I think what you saw is another retail section of the Uptown project. More than just moving dirt, it's legitimate construction starting, and will be an additional 100,000 or so square feet of retail.

I think the Park Towers, like many other high rise condo projects, are on hold. They were supposed to break ground the end of 2006.

did someone mention ALTAMONTE SPRINGS???????!!!!!

I wannna see a KOHLS go "THEIR"!!!!!!!!!!! :ph34r:

There's already a Kohls in Altamonte Springs, at the intersection of 434 and 436.

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And while you may not care that celebrity architects have designed buildings in Celebration, that was really not the point I was making.

Sorry, typical rant of an almost engineer :whistling:

I'm sure their designs are nice, but I would like to stop seeing buildings that could be placed on any site and in any climate. Not saying all or even most of Celebration is like that, but they have their share of McMansions out there.

Edited by neon9
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I know a lot of people on here are into the whole planned community thing, but I just don't see the point in saying that a community is built like that. Celebration is Pleasantville to me. Building these "park" communities trying to replace a lost childhood of the babyboomers will not happen. People only move from their house, to the garage, to their SUV, to the road, to work and back again. They have yards, but don't use them. Neighbors don't talk to each other. Everyone is removed. To me, Celebration is the pinnacle of these park communities. I think Celebration looks nice, but I think it is CHEEZZZZYYYY.

Planned communities--say, Coral Gables, Boston's Back Bay, Central Paris?

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I like the New Urban/TND principles a lot. But sticking a TND in the middle of nowhere, far from any significant job base or transit, i.e. Celebration, completely defeats the purpose. Sure, perhaps of few of the residents work in the various suburbanized Celebration office parks and a lot are Disney cast-members, but in general these people are all getting in their cars to go to work and spending a lot more time on the roads than their counterparts in the less-cutesy Baldwin Park...

I suppose I'm echoing the other criticizers, but location and accessibility are, IMO, even more important than the interior design of the neighborhood. I find the exterior accessibility of Celebration excessively hostile; far less inviting than even the most generic of subdivisions throughout the east/northeast sides of town that I'm most familiar with. Is it even possible to leave Celebration (and reach any decent destinations) by foot or bicycle?

As an aside, in my hometown (Augusta, GA), a TND is under development directly across the river from downtown. It emphasizes pedestrian accessibility, extending the street grid, public access to all desirable locations (specifically the riverfront), and convenient access to jobs and services. That is, IMO, the focus that New Urban communities should try to have. They should be an integral part of the community, not an insular community to themselves. Baldwin Park is the closest example Orlando has, and if the previously rumored Lymmo route ever pans out (or better yet, light rail), then that would be a redevelopment model I'd like to see around Orlando.

I see what you are saying regarding accessibility--Orlando in general is a spread out metro. However, Celebration is on I-4 and the 417. It is not exactly Kenansville. It would be nice for Celebration to get hooked up to commuter rail, but then again it would be nice to have it to begin with!

Sorry, typical rant of an almost engineer :whistling:

I'm sure their designs are nice, but I would like to stop seeing buildings that could be placed on any site and in any climate. Not saying all or even most of Celebration is like that, but they have their share of McMansions out there.

I agree, this is my main criticism of Celebration as well. It would be nice to see more of the Florida style instituted in the town vernacular. Baldwin Park is an even bigger offended of this.

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Planned communities--say, Coral Gables, Boston's Back Bay, Central Paris?

I don't know if you can compare Haussmann's 'renovation' of Paris with a planned community built by Disney. One that appears to have helped fill in Reedy Creek Swamp. Of course then again Paris has got the Marais....

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I don't know if you can compare Haussmann's 'renovation' of Paris with a planned community built by Disney. One that appears to have helped fill in Reedy Creek Swamp. Of course then again Paris has got the Marais....

I cannot see why the comparison isn't plausible--Boston's Back Bay was swampland.

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Planned communities--say, Coral Gables, Boston's Back Bay, Central Paris?

[sarcasm] I just love the white picket fence thing they are trying to do down there in Celebration. [/sarcasm]

It just feels like you are stepping into Stepford or like I said Pleasantville. It's too starched for me.

And another example of your planned communities is the entire state of Ohio.

Perhaps these places like Celebration and Baldwin Park will melt into the pot in a couple generations.

Edited by bulldogger
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Prahaboheme and bulldogger, I think you're both right. I once wrote a 30-page paper on the development of Celebration in college and have studied other planned communities extensively (like Back Bay/South End) so am familiar with the subject. That said, as great a design as Celebration is, something about it doesn't feel right. Like bulldogger said, it's like Pleasantville-- everything is a little too perfect. Still a nice place...just kinda weird.

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I cannot see why the comparison isn't plausible--Boston's Back Bay was swampland.

Perhaps I should not have focused on the swamp. Please compare the picture of the squatters building that I posted quite a while ago to 'downtown' Celebration.

Since I don't know where it is here is a link on the intrawebs http://www.metropoleparis.com/2001/606/606squat.html

Where can you go in Celebration for a quick meal on the street? (ok, besides ice cream)

How can you catch public transit?

Where can you get a meal @ midnight?

Can you build something there that isn't vetted by the neighborhood groups and Disney?

Can you drink in a park? (uh, where are the public parks?)

I could go on.....but I don't think Paris is quite as 'planned' as Celebration

Edited by neon9
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Perhaps I should not have focused on the swamp. Please compare the picture of the squatters building that I posted quite a while ago to 'downtown' Celebration.

Since I don't know where it is here is a link on the intrawebs http://www.metropoleparis.com/2001/606/606squat.html

Where can you go in Celebration for a quick meal on the street? (ok, besides ice cream)

How can you catch public transit?

Where can you get a meal @ midnight?

Can you build something there that isn't vetted by the neighborhood groups and Disney?

Can you drink in a park? (uh, where are the public parks?)

I could go on.....but I don't think Paris is quite as 'planned' as Celebration

Planned communities take time to evolve; if you look at historic pictures of the Upper West Side, the Back Bay, hell even Paris (and yes, it was very much planned, perhaps even more stringent than Celebration) none of these places were nearly as interesting then as they are now. NONE! The streets were bare; the buildings were new.

Where can you go in Celebration for a quick meal on the street? There are plenty of places; more now than 13 years ago when Celebration began.

How can you catch public transit? Well, for that matter how can you catch public transit anywhere in Orlando? The Lynx bus.

Where can you get a meal @ midnight? The Celebration Hotel or 192; as it matures, so too will the amenities.

Can you build something there that isn't vetted by the neighborhood groups and Disney? Qoute me if i'm wrong but last I heard Disney was no longer a partner in Celebration but to answer your question: perhaps people move to Celebration because of neighborhood groups, uniformity, a sense of place, like characteristics? How is this different than say, Hunters Creek or Beverly Hills? You cannot build something in the Village or Chelsea without review, and the people who live there like it that way. Just ask! So you don't like it, that is why you live (insert here).

Can you drink in a park? (uh, where are the public parks?) Celebration has an abundance of parks for public use. In terms of drinking in the park--it is Celebration, FL not Celebration, Louisiana. But I do like the idea!

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I think what you saw is another retail section of the Uptown project. More than just moving dirt, it's legitimate construction starting, and will be an additional 100,000 or so square feet of retail.

I think the Park Towers, like many other high rise condo projects, are on hold. They were supposed to break ground the end of 2006.

There's already a Kohls in Altamonte Springs, at the intersection of 434 and 436.

ummm. i was being a fecicious.

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... I don't know why everyone dislikes Celebration. I think it and Baldwin are totally cool...it changes things up a bit from the average neighborhood.

I have asked myself that question for a decade now. Having moved personally to Celebration back in 1996, it's always felt like "us vs. them" when the topic of Celebration comes up. Usually when asked where I live, I tell people down by disney so as not to hear some sarcastic reply. Seems like everyone from Kissimmee(and other areas close by) like to have a problem with this town and has plenty of negative comments to make, yet every holiday where do they bring their own children? It's always been this way. They love to hate us, but when the time comes they use us. To me, Celebration is like the unwanted step-child of Osceola County residents. The county tries to ignore us, makes us pay addittional money for police coverage on top of already being taxed for it. Had disney not used their weight I doubt we would have had a hospital or fire department in town ethier. In celebration we get little to no services for our tax dollars. Everything for the most part that happens in celebration is paid for by the residents with additional assessments.

There are so many wonderful things that happen in the town and thier are also the negatives. Recently, celebration has been having a large internal fight over it's future. An effort to incorporate failed without ever gaining widespread support, yet did manage to split the community in two because of how the effort was viewed. Now after 10 years, another fight has started to replace the management company operating the home owners association, which again is splitting the place in two.

These cookie cutter neighborhoods, with the white picket fences have their benifits and their pitfalls just like anywhere else. In the end, from what I understand the high up's disney viewed developing celebration in the end as a mistake. Their mistake seemed to spawn a whole new way of building communities. It's funny how that works.

And that's my .02 worth

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I have asked myself that question for a decade now. Having moved personally to Celebration back in 1996, it's always felt like "us vs. them" when the topic of Celebration comes up. Usually when asked where I live, I tell people down by disney so as not to hear some sarcastic reply. Seems like everyone from Kissimmee(and other areas close by) like to have a problem with this town and has plenty of negative comments to make, yet every holiday where do they bring their own children? It's always been this way. They love to hate us, but when the time comes they use us. To me, Celebration is like the unwanted step-child of Osceola County residents. The county tries to ignore us, makes us pay addittional money for police coverage on top of already being taxed for it. Had disney not used their weight I doubt we would have had a hospital or fire department in town ethier. In celebration we get little to no services for our tax dollars. Everything for the most part that happens in celebration is paid for by the residents with additional assessments.

There are so many wonderful things that happen in the town and thier are also the negatives. Recently, celebration has been having a large internal fight over it's future. An effort to incorporate failed without ever gaining widespread support, yet did manage to split the community in two because of how the effort was viewed. Now after 10 years, another fight has started to replace the management company operating the home owners association, which again is splitting the place in two.

These cookie cutter neighborhoods, with the white picket fences have their benifits and their pitfalls just like anywhere else. In the end, from what I understand the high up's disney viewed developing celebration in the end as a mistake. Their mistake seemed to spawn a whole new way of building communities. It's funny how that works.

And that's my .02 worth

all I know is that Orlando has Celebration, Baldwin Park, Avalon (to an extent), and other places like Reunion, Championsgate, and the like with New Urbanism elements incorporated within them in it's development portfolio. I think that is a positive thing. Not many cities have that many such PUD's within their metro's (and I'm not including the average PUD's that we've had here for decades (by average I'm talking about places like Alaqua, Waterford, Stoneybrook, Hunter's Creek, etc.).

Back in the mid-nineties, I think the only such place in Hot-lanta was Fayetville, I think.

There is a lot of relevant development in this town; moreso than in many cities across the country.

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