Other Metro Area Projects

[spenser1058]

As Orlando Fashion Square's troubles accelerate (a Detour store had already reported closing along with Waldenbooks and others) - the Sentinel reports this week the demise of a Hallmark shop, a jewelry store, and perhaps most importantly the very mainstream American Eagle store - I do hate to revel in other people's misery but for those of us who believe downtown retail will always suffer as long as Fashion Square is so close, this may be long-term good news. Whether the DDB has the expertise to capitalize on this reordering of the landscape is another question, of course.

What's perhaps most ironic is that the per capita income around Fashion Square is increasing (thanks to Baldwin Park) even as the mall's mainstream anchors are pulling out.

Stay tuned as the economy slowly comes back and downtown starts to move again.

BTW, Happy New Year to all!

[prahaboheme]

Fashion Square's demise could also mean a major development opportunity in the future.

[mrh3]

As Orlando Fashion Square's troubles accelerate (a Detour store had already reported closing along with Waldenbooks and others) - the Sentinel reports this week the demise of a Hallmark shop, a jewelry store, and perhaps most importantly the very mainstream American Eagle store - I do hate to revel in other people's misery but for those of us who believe downtown retail will always suffer as long as Fashion Square is so close, this may be long-term good news. Whether the DDB has the expertise to capitalize on this reordering of the landscape is another question, of course.

What's perhaps most ironic is that the per capita income around Fashion Square is increasing (thanks to Baldwin Park) even as the mall's mainstream anchors are pulling out.

Stay tuned as the economy slowly comes back and downtown starts to move again.

BTW, Happy New Year to all!

It's owned by PREIT (Pennsylvania Real Estate Investment Trust) I'm sure they'd love to unload that albatross, but a good redevelopment strategy would involve ripping off the roof and turning it into a massive urban retail complex complete with apartments and additional structured parking. Maybe even some office use in there too. I would imagine, however, that the types of tenants in the mall would have difficulty generating the same type of foot traffic in the foreseeable future in a downtown location due to the lack of floor plates equivalent to those at a traditional enclosed mall. In my opinion the only space downtown I can think of (chime in if you can think of something else) is the space on Washington and Orange on the westside that has stood vacant for too many years. That would be a great location for an urban department store. An anchor tenant like that would be a great catalyst to bring in the supporting specialty shops to create a dynamic retail environment in the urban core.

[spenser1058]

It's owned by PREIT (Pennsylvania Real Estate Investment Trust) I'm sure they'd love to unload that albatross, but a good redevelopment strategy would involve ripping off the roof and turning it into a massive urban retail complex complete with apartments and additional structured parking. Maybe even some office use in there too. I would imagine, however, that the types of tenants in the mall would have difficulty generating the same type of foot traffic in the foreseeable future in a downtown location due to the lack of floor plates equivalent to those at a traditional enclosed mall. In my opinion the only space downtown I can think of (chime in if you can think of something else) is the space on Washington and Orange on the westside that has stood vacant for too many years. That would be a great location for an urban department store. An anchor tenant like that would be a great catalyst to bring in the supporting specialty shops to create a dynamic retail environment in the urban core.

Great points, mrh - I think retail has to build slowly downtown. At the moment we need a drug store, a hardware store, and a better liquor store (Plaza Spirits on Orange is rather underwhelming - right now I either have to go to Wally's on Mills - also limited since it's mainly a bar - or over to Total Wine at Colonial Plaza, which is awesome but I don't consider that downtown at all. I also am sort of fascinated that with all the bankers and lawyers working downtown, we can't justify more places to buy business attire (pretty much all that comes to mind is Siegel's).

Your point about Washington and Orange is a good one - I was thinking about another possibility, though. From what I can gather, chain retail (which of course follows rather than leads development), is unlikely to go in the existing structures on Orange in the core because the buildings are simply too much a hassle to retrofit (smaller, eclectic, local retail might find it quite doable once we get some of the mainstream retailers to attract shoppers and it would give us a great balance of both).

As prahaboheme noted on another thread about South Eola, its "historic" qualities have pretty much been eliminated. I have long believed the wide Rosalind corridor might be attractive to the chain store mentality and, as it happens, there is a piece of property that might work. The woefully out-of-date Orange County Administration Center is surrounded by surface parking for the county. Along with the area where Capital Plaza III was supposed to go (you'll recall them talking about yet another hotel over there, but to be honest I really don't believe downtown is going to need more than one more hotel for quite a while and it seems to me it makes more sense for it to go over by the interstate and the new Amway Center (as it is, that's assuming the Marriott is converted to another use and I'm not convinced the Radisson/Sheraton/Sonesta will ever prosper up there in midtown).

At any rate, I question whether, given the realities of retailing, whether a municipal organization like the DDB/CRA has the expertise to attract chain retail. I have also noticed that Simon, just to note one of the larger players, seems to get what it wants (I moaned and groaned for years for a Brooks Brothers in Orlando, but it didn't finally happen until Simon took over FL Mall; sadly it didn't stick). Because attracting and maintaining retailers seems to work best in a given development (trying to get individual retailers to follow rules is like herding cats; good for individually-owned local retailers, bad for the chains), I wonder if the City would do well to do a plaza sort of planned development there along Rosalind by assembling the county's property (sooner or later, they're going to need more space anyway - they outgrew the Administration Center years ago) and perhaps the Capital Plaza III space or some of the unbuilt land east of that area (or allowing a developer to do it), and engaging a property manager like Simon to attract the retail we have yet to pull downtown. Once that is up and running, you could connect that space with more interesting local shops heading back toward Orange. I also would like to address that area on Orange but I'll do that on the downtown thread. Anyway, just an idea, but to me, retail is the next key for downtown - we DO NOT need more restaurants or bars at this point, thank you. mrh3, you may have similar ideas to what we could do over on the other side that might work just as well; my question is, how much space is going to be left over there when they redo I4? Anyway, more in a bit.

[prahaboheme]

Nice post -- I always thought that the vacant storefront on the East side of the Plaza (on Magnolia) would be a great location for a liquor store.

I often wonder if a large department store can make it downtown -- what about a Jacobson's store in addition to their Winter Park location? Too risky? The unfortunate, and missing part of this equation, is the absence of Tradition Towers at Rosalind/Central, which was most certainly going to attract retail outlets and may have begun a retail Renaissance.

[smileguy]

Nice post -- I always thought that the vacant storefront on the East side of the Plaza (on Magnolia) would be a great location for a liquor store.

I often wonder if a large department store can make it downtown -- what about a Jacobson's store in addition to their Winter Park location? Too risky? The unfortunate, and missing part of this equation, is the absence of Tradition Towers at Rosalind/Central, which was most certainly going to attract retail outlets and may have begun a retail Renaissance.

What about Church St. as a retail hub - with the new spaces in 55w and the old spaces in 54w and on the west side of the tracks, it seems that there could be enough density of retail to be sustainable.

[jack]

I am not a retail expert, but I know enough to be dangerous. Downtown does not need more restaurants but that is what will will get for a while. The problem with retail Downtown is that we do not have the critical mass of space to encourage clustering. It is very spread out right now. Chain stores are notoriously boring when it comes to expansion. They go where everyone else is going. Independent stores will be our best bet. But the challenge is that locals tend to shop at known stores. Urban retail is tremendously difficult to do.

[mrh3]

To solve the problem of better retail downtown, I'll start with the quote, "We've won the battle, but not the war." Even though most luxe retailers are at Florida Mall and Millenia, many new retailers were introduced to Orlando for the first time. I would imagine that a satellite location would be deemed neccesary based on a simple ZIP code study of existing customers. Once the numbers dictate that there is enough demand for a second location you can bet that they'll be in the market for some downtown space.

Two things unfortunately are working against that process at the moment 1). Market Conditions - Retail as a whole is in the toilet and will be for the foreseeable future which means that the entrepreneurial developers that created the latest round of development are broke (see Cameron Kuhn). 2). Anchor space - You are indeed correct that national retailers move en masse. The sum is greater than its parts. To entice new retailers, they need to be assured that they won't be the first kid on the block and because there isn't a location fitting for an urban department store, the whole process is stalled.

Urban retail is a being reintroduced to various levels of success around the country and is the trend of the future. There's no doubt in my mind that there will eventually be a strong retail presence downtown, but it's not going to happen until the existing space is leased and 5 year growth forecasts turn positive.

If you want more information on urban retail check out the bookstore at icsc.org.

Edited January 16, 2010 by mrh3

[JFW657]

There is a new grocery store going into the old Albertsons at Curry Ford & Semoran.

It's called Sedano's. I believe it's a Spanish/Latino store.

http://www.sedanos.com

Edited January 23, 2010 by JFW657

[demon]

I think once the events center opens there will be retail that follows in 55W and Church St Station. There will be too much foot traffic not to have something open.

[mgsports]

Good to see that former Albertsons get replaced.

If the Downtown area can get like Sports Bar Places that would be okay or like Famous Dave's okay to.

Retail like maybe Aldi,Magic Store or MCSPORTS or Borders or Saks or so on would be good. Lego Island Store would be good to with it coming to Orlando.

[prahaboheme]

Like all development, I wish this were downtown but at least they are remaining in the area:

Adventist Healthcare System HQ in Maitland:

Article:

http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2010/04/05/daily12.html

[VistaLakes01]

As Orlando Fashion Square's troubles accelerate (a Detour store had already reported closing along with Waldenbooks and others) - the Sentinel reports this week the demise of a Hallmark shop, a jewelry store, and perhaps most importantly the very mainstream American Eagle store - I do hate to revel in other people's misery but for those of us who believe downtown retail will always suffer as long as Fashion Square is so close, this may be long-term good news. Whether the DDB has the expertise to capitalize on this reordering of the landscape is another question, of course.

What's perhaps most ironic is that the per capita income around Fashion Square is increasing (thanks to Baldwin Park) even as the mall's mainstream anchors are pulling out.

Stay tuned as the economy slowly comes back and downtown starts to move again.

BTW, Happy New Year to all!

I hate to say it but the suburban megaplex in the Waterford Lakes area is basically what killed Fashion Square. Orlando has always moved east (the city population in Orange county.) I remember Colonial Plaza Mall when Fashion Square opened a little to the east down the street. Colonial Plaza added a south mall wing and moved the Belk store from the front parking lot to the new mall addition. Then 12 years later Colonial Plaza made another desperated attempt by renovating the entire mall and building a brand new Ivey's store (Dillards) on the front of the north end. Both malls had similar retail lineups. Then Fashion Square renovated by gutting the Robinson's store, adding a food court, a JCPenney, and a new Maison Blanche, eventually Dillards. Plus a parking garage. Colonial Plaza deteriorated quickly after that, especially when Jordan Marsh was bought out by Federated stores and closed due to keeping the Burdines open at Fashion Square. Colonial Plaza had stolen some of downtown Orlando's major retailers, such as Rutland's men store and Gibb Louis womens store, Thom McCann, Lerner Shops, Winter Park mall took Iveys and JCPenney from downtown and Sears went to East Colonial pre-Fashion Square as a stand alone store. The difference between Orlando and other cities accross the country was new malls went way out to the suburbs, like Altamonte Mall. Orlando's former downtown retailers remained just a couple of miles from the city center and are actually in neighborhoods that are considered downtown neighborhoods, like Colonialtown, Audobon Park, now Baldwin Park. Although I love the mall, current retail trends are quite different. I believe there are a few malls in every city that are destination malls like Millenia, and Florida Mall, Altamonte Mall is a very urban area with most residents living in muli-family units and uptown Altamonte has helped that area. Fowler Groves in Winter Garden put the nail in the coffin for West Oaks, along with several Walmart supercenters and groceries. Waterford has a big effect on Oviedo Marketplace as well as the store lineup at Altamonte Mall. My point (finally) is that central Orlando seems to need retail to replace what it is losing on East Colonial. But with most retail now being superstores, how does that fit into the picture. I don't think Jacobsons would be a big enough draw and small shops downtown have a big failure rate. Remember Church Street Exchange and Marketplace? National retailers made an attempt for 10 or 15 years. I think except for small eclectic retail, downtown retail will be based (until the economy improves) by SoDo to the south, Colonial Plaza to the east, and Winter Park Village and Park Ave to the north. I think there will be decent shopping areas in the Plaza/Church Street district, Thornton Park, College Park, Baldwin Park, Corrine Drive, Michigan Street, and hopefully soon Parramore. We should consider ourselves lucky, Tampa is pretty much a ghost town due to 70s and 80s office development downtown, souless glass towers, Jacksonville really has nothing, St. Pete is trying but is still in the lower rent artsy retail stage. Plus the Orlando metro in general is a major shopping mecca. Also Orlando has 25,000 residents within 1 mile of the city center and 150,000 within 3 miles of the city center (unless things have changed drastically in the 2010 census) and that is unheard of in most cities, Miami and Atlanta included. So retail downtown may happen in a big way when the census figures come in and the economy improves. Give it 10=15 years. Maybe all this high speed rail and commuter rail projects will push things along.

[prahaboheme]

Kissimmee Lakefront Park Revitalization broke ground this month - a $10 million revitalization of the existing Lake Toho park in downtown Kissimmee. This will be a very impressive park in a few years:

Lakefront Park

[spenser1058]

OBJ reports Planet Fitness coming to Fashion Square:

http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2010/07/12/daily24.html

The article states it is going in on the west side near Sears and major renovations are in store. Could this be the first step in demalling of OFS?

[Jernigan]

OBJ reports Planet Fitness coming to Fashion Square:

http://orlando.bizjo...12/daily24.html

The article states it is going in on the west side near Sears and major renovations are in store. Could this be the first step in demalling of OFS?

What do you mean by demalling? As far as non-"retail" goes, they have already added a karate studio, tattoo parlor and wedding photo studio (or something).

The lot of me looks at this and says "Why won't you just die?!" to the OFS.

And how successful would a Planet Fitness do on the Sears side right across McGuire from LA Fitness in the Target plaza?

[spenser1058]

What do you mean by demalling? As far as non-"retail" goes, they have already added a karate studio, tattoo parlor and wedding photo studio (or something).

The lot of me looks at this and says "Why won't you just die?!" to the OFS.

And how successful would a Planet Fitness do on the Sears side right across McGuire from LA Fitness in the Target plaza?

I read somewhere else that for some reason fitness facilities like to locate near each other, not sure why that would be. By "demalling," I was referring to eliminating part of the actual indoor mall in favor of exterior access. That seems a good bit of "blank" space at that end of the mall (based on the 18000sf figure quoted in the story), which folks will just walk by unless that's where they're going - hardly pedestrian friendly and most definitely not conducive to shopping which is of course the point of a mall. It also seems to indicate it will have exterior access. At some point, there's no longer a reason to keep the interior walkways.

Edited July 15, 2010 by spenser1058

[Jernigan]

Oh ok - I gotcha. Just never thought of it that way - good call.

I originally just thought that this mall should be demolished - but then I was thinking about it's location relative to it's surroundings and wouldn't mind seeing it become an urban center...there's no reason all civic areas should be outdoors - especially in Florida.

If they could add to Baldwin Park so that it encroaches and takes over some of the excess parking and added a streetspace along colonial - we'd have something great.

Then the mall could become a multipurpose civic facility - maybe have a library, bowling alley, you could keep the movie theater and gym as is.

[prahaboheme]

Kissimmee News:

Interesting article regarding county monies allocations for some new projects, largely involving eco-tourism and sports facilities, including a partnership with ESPN which will host at least 30 days a year of events at the Osceola Heritage Park:

Article

[John Hargrove]

I read somewhere else that for some reason fitness facilities like to locate near each other, not sure why that would be. By "demalling," I was referring to eliminating part of the actual indoor mall in favor of exterior access. That seems a good bit of "blank" space at that end of the mall (based on the 18000sf figure quoted in the story), which folks will just walk by unless that's where they're going - hardly pedestrian friendly and most definitely not conducive to shopping which is of course the point of a mall. It also seems to indicate it will have exterior access. At some point, there's no longer a reason to keep the interior walkways.

Oh ok - I gotcha. Just never thought of it that way - good call.

I originally just thought that this mall should be demolished - but then I was thinking about it's location relative to it's surroundings and wouldn't mind seeing it become an urban center...there's no reason all civic areas should be outdoors - especially in Florida.

If they could add to Baldwin Park so that it encroaches and takes over some of the excess parking and added a streetspace along colonial - we'd have something great.

Then the mall could become a multipurpose civic facility - maybe have a library, bowling alley, you could keep the movie theater and gym as is.

TED posted an interesting talk on re-use of these big box and mall buildings.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ellen_dunham_jones_retrofitting_suburbia.html

[XAdamX]

Anyone have any online links to the various trail projects in Seminole/Orange counties? The one I found for Seminole seems to be severely out of date. My understanding was the Cross-Seminole Trail would connect with pre-existing trails in Orange County and others in Seminole ( for example the Wekiva Trail). I also understand a few overpasses will be constructed (much like the one over 434 in Winter Springs and the one over 436 in Winter Park). Thanks.

[prahaboheme]

Nice article on the evolution of Full Sail into a full fledged university and economic engine for the region:

Full steam ahead at Full Sail, one of Orlando's few viable real-estate engines

[mrh3]

I hate to hart on the urban density aspect, but it seems like this is precisely what the Creative Village concept should look like.

[prahaboheme]

Hopefully Full Sail can be brought into a downtown center at the Creative Village to further expand their scope and function. Realistically though, production studios need space for back lots and the creative village would be much too restricting.

[mrh3]

Not necessarily Praha, Rockefeller Center is home to dozens of studios as are the local ABC and CBS studios. All that would be needed is a large floor plate and you can build up. In fact, a year or so ago I did a property tour of Fox Studios in Midtown at the base of 1211 Avenue of the Americas (6th Ave). Pretty impressive. Cushman was the broker and the owner (Rockefeller Dev. Group) had just completed a major build out of the space. Now if you need backlots, etc... That's a different story.

Edited August 2, 2010 by mrh3