Atlanta's Regional Rail and Transit Systems.

[ironchapman]

Possibly because it is such a long-term project whose benefits may not be seen immediately? I'm sure there are people that believe that focusing instead on short-term transit projects (say, the Peachtree Street streetcar) would show improvement and give a lift to the city in a more timely fashion.

I gotta say, as much as I love the concept of the Beltline, it does kinda get me down when I think of how old I would be by the predicted completion time.

Not to mention it's gonna a take a heck of a lot of money. It's also going to change/affect the boundaries of some districts (school, election, etc.) and neighborhoods.

[Lady Celeste]

Celeste, I know Vincent Fort and I don't think he's trying to just be contrary. The sad fact is that Cobb, Clayton and Gwinnett Counties refused to join MARTA 40 years ago (for reasons which are probably evident to most folks who've been hanging around this town for a while), despite the fact that it was a unique and pioneering project, unlike anything else being done in the South. They have staunchly refused over the ensuing 4 decades to join MARTA. They even kept their own transit systems to themselves while taking advantage of MARTA's infrastucture by picking up and dropping off passengers at its stations.

Consequently the financial burden of making MARTA happen has fallen on Fulton and DeKalb Counties. So there's a bit of the Little Red Hen syndrome going on here. After Mother Hen MARTA spent decades planning the system, constructing it, maintaining, expanding and operating it, scrounging up the money year after year with no help from the all the little chicks in the suburban counties, they suddenly want to come in and take charge.

I think what Sen. Fort is saying is simply that he's not willing to sacrifice the interests of the people who've carried the system for the last 40 years (and really much farther back than that) to the interests of commuters who've moved away from Atlanta in droves and kept MARTA at arm's length since the beginning.

MARTA needs help, the suburban counties need help, and the whole area clearly requires a better transit structure. Change needs to happen and some sort of larger transportation authority needs to be formed. But I can also understand the concerns that the interests of Atlanta's long term residents -- the people who've built, supported and used MARTA for decades -- don't get trampled in the process.

Very well put Andrea. When my parents moved here, they settled in Fulton County. I can understand the feeling of people who have supported MARTA from day one. When I first married we lived in Fulton and gladly supported MARTA and Grady Memorial Hospital. MARTA like you said, MARTA needs the suburbs but the suburbs need MARTA as well. Many of the same people Sen Fort wants to rightly help must run down jobs that are in job rich Gwinnett and Cobb counties because of the lack of connectivity of the system. The voters of the two nicest counties in my opinion, DeKalb and Fulton (I say nicest because the chose to pay higher taxes to benefit the masses) have grown tired of supporting a system that people from Clayton, Cobb, Douglas, Forsyth, Henry and Rockdale counties benefit without directly helping.

If a regional system is implemented then these counties too must bear the burden of running the system. All in all, it may wind up being less of a burden since it will be spread out over more counties. That is where I was saying Sen Fort was being counter. Yes, his constituents have bourne the burden of supporting MARTA but are we to not seek ways of expansion because these counties ran by people, some long gone, didn't have the foresight to see where regional cooperation was necessary. Now we have these people in office and there still is a problem. I would rather for him to come with a better solution....or at least bring to the table how he would "remedy" this past wrong. Metro Atlanta's economy drives alot of what happens in Georgia and I am saddend that we don't have a governor with enough sense to realize that multi-forms of transportation is beneficial to continued growth of this economy.

Well a combined system will command more attention. Are we to wait because of past wrongs or are we to move forward, while recognizing the wrongs, and build a system that can be both financially viable for the jurisdictions at hand and economically feasible for ALL Atlantans. I remember my many years of working in corporate America. I was trained to not come to higher ups with complaints but rather solutions. That's all I would want Sen. Fort to do. Perhaps he is but the AJC sure isn't showing him in such a light.

[Andrea]

Metro Atlanta's economy drives alot of what happens in Georgia and I am saddend that we don't have a governor with enough sense to realize that multi-forms of transportation is beneficial to continued growth of this economy.

Yes, I understand Sen. Fort's defensiveness and protectiveness, given the way MARTA has been treated by the larger metro area and by the State, but ultimately it will have to yield to larger concerns.

This would be a tremendous opportunity for the governor to jump in and put his shoulder to the wheel. The Atlanta area clearly drives the State of Georgia and it's time for leadership at the highest level. In my opinion, the situation demands someone who can command the attention of the many mayors, councilmen, county commissioners, state senators and representatives, federal officials, and other civic and business leaders. Somebody who can take the bull by the horns and say, "Folks, what we've got here is a huge mess. It's going to take the cooperation of every single one of you to get us out of it, and I *will* have that cooperation. Now let's get to work."

This would be a golden opportunity for the governor to do something that marks his administration as one of true vision and leadership. It's a chance to do help the people of Georgia for generations to come. I sure hope this opportunity is not wasted.

[ironchapman]

MARTA has just begun it's new fare system! This is great news They'll be testing them over the next month and then will proceed to phase it into all of their bus and rail station.

See Article (AJC)

[Lady Celeste]

This would be a golden opportunity for the governor to do something that marks his administration as one of true vision and leadership. It's a chance to do help the people of Georgia for generations to come. I sure hope this opportunity is not wasted.

You know Andrea, for the life of me, I can't understand why Gov Perdue does not just step up to the plate and say "I will head the Greater Atlanta regional transportation authority." See that's one thing I loathe about politics....no one sees the big picture....they are only out for what they can get...or give those who gave to them. In defense of Sonny, he is not the only one. Poor Roy tried and you see what happened to him.

[Andrea]

In defense of Sonny, he is not the only one. Poor Roy tried and you see what happened to him.

Well, at least Roy tried. I haven't seen Gov. Perdue do anything about transportation other than mumble that he might consider getting involved "when MARTA gets its finances in order," whatever that means.

[Lady Celeste]

Well, at least Roy tried. I haven't seen Gov. Perdue do anything about transportation other than mumble that he might consider getting involved "when MARTA gets its finances in order," whatever that means.

Yeah, that statement is funny....is much like if I was to tell one of my children one day when they are older..."your father and I will help you as soon as you don't need our help." WTH....

[teshadoh]

Unfortunately Perdue has attempted to force his opinion on transportation in Atlanta - his Congestion Taskforce. Essentially it is intended to strong arm more lane-widenings. Not additional transit or pedestrian projects - just lane widenings.

Perdue,& I'm not saying this to be dramatic, just doesn't care what happens to MARTA.

[Martinman]

Unfortunately Perdue has attempted to force his opinion on transportation in Atlanta - his Congestion Taskforce. Essentially it is intended to strong arm more lane-widenings. Not additional transit or pedestrian projects - just lane widenings.

Perdue,& I'm not saying this to be dramatic, just doesn't care what happens to MARTA.

Everyone seems to be getting on board with the vision of a more urban focused metro except those at the state level with the most power affect real change, including the DOA (A = asphalt).

Edited December 16, 2005 by Martinman

[ironchapman]

Everyone seems to be getting on board with the vision of a more urban focused metro except those at the state level with the most power affect real change, including the DOA (A = asphalt).

I think it has something to do with the fact that so many of our legislators, etc. come from more rural and less developed urban areas of the state. I wonder if that has anything to do with t.

Atlanta and Georgia are experiencing pretty much the opposite of what's happening in New York. The legislature up there, as I understand, gives everything to NYC and very little (comparatively) to the rest of the state. In Georgia, the government is so cheap to Atlanta and the city's requests and much more willing to the rest of the state.

If only the government could realize what a treasure Atlanta is to the state and how important some of its requests are to the city's well being. This is not to say that Atlanta should be the (almost) sole focus of the state government like it is up in New York and NYC, but the government should at least realize some of Atlanta's request are vital to it becoming a better city.

[Martinman]

Emory hires ex-MARTA exec to head transportation planning - ABC

"Emory University has appointed former MARTA and Amtrak executive Laura Ray to lead the university's initiatives in transportation planning.

The university is working with other Clifton Corridor organizations to find ways to improve the transportation system and, thus, the overall land use and urban design in an area that accommodates more than 23,000 employees, nearly 12,000 students and 8,000 patients and visitors each weekday. The corridor is the largest activity center in the Atlanta region without direct access to the interstate system or a MARTA rail station."

[Andrea]

A proposal for a futuristic new rail system in Atlanta, including inter-urban trains to Marietta and Stone Mountain as well! Check this out!!!!

Oh, wait, that's the rail system we had 100 years ago.

[Andrea]

I ran across these comments in AJC from the manager of the Portland Streetcar project:

Robison, Willis and others in the [Atlanta Streetcar]group are getting their inspiration for the Peachtree line from a much-touted streetcar project in Portland, Ore. A $55 million private-public investment there has helped spawn more than $1 billion in redevelopment in what was a struggling warehouse district.

Forty-four projects, many of them mixed-use developments with retail on the ground floor and condos above, have been constructed since the 1997 announcement that a streetcar would be built in the Pearl District, said Vicky Diede, Portland's streetcar project manager.

"We're not claiming every bit of development is streetcar, but there is a synergy between streetcar and development, and the streetcar was a very big contributing force," Diede said.

Two tracks running on each side of a street symbolize "permanence" to developers, meaning a long-term investment is not likely to be wasted. Buses, by contrast, do not have that kind of appeal to developers because routes can be changed or eliminated rapidly, increasing the risk for their investments.

What's more, streetcars can encourage "linear development" --- up and down the entire route --- because passengers can get on and off every few blocks. With subways, developers generally cluster projects around stations.

Here's a link to the Portland Streetcar site. Take a look at the Development Report to see what has happened in the streetcar zone in just a few years.

[teshadoh]

A proposal for a futuristic new rail system in Atlanta, including inter-urban trains to Marietta and Stone Mountain as well! Check this out!!!!

Oh, wait, that's the rail system we had 100 years ago.

Where did you come up with the 1933 map? I've come across the 1950's / era streetcar map before - which is roughly the same. Thanks for putting it up~

But it certainly is unfortanete what happened to the streetcar system. But even then all the streetcars were just suburb to downtown, none provided any service for neighborhood to neighborhood. But then again, the map doesn't even show the commuter rail lines...

Edited December 26, 2005 by teshadoh

[Andrea]

Where did you come up with the 1933 map? I've come across the 1950's / era streetcar map before - which is roughly the same. Thanks for putting it up~

But it certainly is unfortanete what happened to the streetcar system. But even then all the streetcars were just suburb to downtown, none provided any service for neighborhood to neighborhood. But then again, the map doesn't even show the commuter rail lines...

Brad, it's copied from Copied from Jean Martin, Mule to MARTA (Atlanta: Atlanta Historical Society, 1975).

[Andrea]

Brad, it's copied from Copied from Jean Martin, Mule to MARTA (Atlanta: Atlanta Historical Society, 1975).

By the way, in my opinion the old streetcars were absolutely gorgeous and would look great if they were running today. After Atlanta closed down its system in 1949, many of the cars were put in service in Seoul, Korea, where they continued to operate for years.

Here's a restored Atlanta car, which shows what they looked like in their heyday:

[Lady Celeste]

By the way, in my opinion the old streetcars were absolutely gorgeous and would look great if they were running today. After Atlanta closed down its system in 1949, many of the cars were put in service in Seoul, Korea, where they continued to operate for years.

Here's a restored Atlanta car, which shows what they looked like in their heyday:

Can you imagine these running up and down Peachtree St, Ponce De Leon, Piedmont and Northside Dr.....that would be such a sight and an asset to the city.

[ironchapman]

Here's a bit of good news:

Cherokee started agroup of express buses to Atlanta on Monday. it seems they must have been a big hit, as there isalready talk of expanding its service!

See article (AJC)

It's a step in the right direction!

[Andrea]

Here's a bit of good news:

It's a step in the right direction!

Gee, I guess it is, IC. But what a commute! If you figure it takes 15 minutes to drive to the bus depot, and then 15 minutes to get out of the Five Points station and walk to your office, that's nearly two hours each way.

[Andrea]

This figure is from a 1999 report on Atlanta but I bet it's probably still about right:

Only 4.7% of the region’s workers commute by public transit

If that's true, is it even worth worrying over public transportation? How likely is it than any significant portion of Atlantans will ever give up their cars?

[ironchapman]

This figure is from a 1999 report on Atlanta but I bet it's probably still about right:

If that's true, is it even worth worrying over public transportation? How likely is it than any significant portion of Atlantans will ever give up their cars?

It quite possibly could be. An article from the New Georgia Encyclopedia says that MARTA as a whole gets 550,000 riders a day. There are approximately 5,000,000 in the metro....go figure.

However, I do not know what the stats are for C-Tran, CCT, and the rest of the local transit systems.

550,000 isn't terrible by any means. That's one of, if not the, highest numbers in the Southeast. We could probably increase it at least some if we could extend MARTA in to more counties and into more areas of Fulton, DeKalb, and the city of Atlanta and if we were to offer more options for transit (i.e. the Beltline, the Peachtree Streetcar, etc.)

Edited January 13, 2006 by ironchapman

[Lady Celeste]

It quite possibly could be. An article from the New Georgia Encyclopedia says that MARTA as a whole gets 550,000 riders a day. There are approximately 5,000,000 in the metro....go figure.

However, I do not know what the stats are for C-Tran, CCT, and the rest of the local transit systems.

550,000 isn't terrible by any means. That's one of, if not the, highest numbers in the Southeast. We could probably increase it at least some if we could extend MARTA in to more counties and into more areas of Fulton, DeKalb, and the city of Atlanta and if we were to offer more options for transit (i.e. the Beltline, the Peachtree Streetcar, etc.)

Thank you for that figure Irony. I'm with you, 550,000 is quite impressive when you consider that MARTA doesn't serve the entire 5,000,000 populace. It is also quite impressive when one considers that the south has historically had a negative connotation with public transportation and a love affair with the automobile. Even living in Fulton doesn't quite guarantee that MARTA will be readily accessible. Try living in most parts of Alpharetta....you will be no where near a bus line and the nearest train station is the North Springs Station in Sandy Springs.

By the time I have driven 20 miles to the North Springs Station, I might as well continue on my way. That's why I hope that there can be a metro wide collaboration. More people would ride.....I can't speak for Gwinnett but there are lots of people from northern Fulton and southern Forsyth county who make the trek to the North Springs station or they park at the park and ride on Mansell and hope the express bus to North Springs.

I feel if public transportation was made more sense and went where the people wanted to go then more people would ride. If the had a line that went from Gwinnett Place Mall to Perimeter Mall to Cumberland Mall, we would be cooking. The top end Perimeter is a definite hotspot.

[ironchapman]

Thank you for that figure Irony. I'm with you, 550,000 is quite impressive when you consider that MARTA doesn't serve the entire 5,000,000 populace. It is also quite impressive when one considers that the south has historically had a negative connotation with public transportation and a love affair with the automobile. Even living in Fulton doesn't quite guarantee that MARTA will be readily accessible. Try living in most parts of Alpharetta....you will be no where near a bus line and the nearest train station is the North Springs Station in Sandy Springs.

By the time I have driven 20 miles to the North Springs Station, I might as well continue on my way. That's why I hope that there can be a metro wide collaboration. More people would ride.....I can't speak for Gwinnett but there are lots of people from northern Fulton and southern Forsyth county who make the trek to the North Springs station or they park at the park and ride on Mansell and hope the express bus to North Springs.

I feel if public transportation was made more sense and went where the people wanted to go then more people would ride. If the had a line that went from Gwinnett Place Mall to Perimeter Mall to Cumberland Mall, we would be cooking. The top end Perimeter is a definite hotspot.

I'd like to add onto that first paragraph that the city itself has 425,000 (roughly) within its limits. add onto that the populations of Sandy Springs and Decatur (the two other main cities situated along its route) and you still don't get 550,000, so at least we know that it's more than the residents of those cities that are riding it.

Those last two paragraphs I can agree wholeheartedly with the second and third paragraphs.

Here's what I think MARTA should do within the city limits:

-Add a station near Turner Field. (perhaps a line connecting stations on the South Line to stations on the West one from West End to King Memorial)

-Add the second airport station

-Add a line bridging the North and West lines across downtown from say Arts Center to Asby or Vine City.

Edited January 13, 2006 by ironchapman

[Newnan]

Here's a bit of good news:

Cherokee started agroup of express buses to Atlanta on Monday. it seems they must have been a big hit, as there isalready talk of expanding its service!

See article (AJC)

It's a step in the right direction!

They're doing that in Coweta too. It's also been successful!

[Andrea]

An article from the New Georgia Encyclopedia says that MARTA as a whole gets 550,000 riders a day. There are approximately 5,000,000 in the metro....go figure.

However, I do not know what the stats are for C-Tran, CCT, and the rest of the local transit systems.

550,000 isn't terrible by any means.

No, it's not terrible, and I'm really asking the question rhetorically to spark the discussion.

MARTA's own records report 461,600 weekday trips, of which 61% are for work. If you assume that someone taking the bus to work is also taking it back home, you wind up with about 140,000 people actually commuting to work. I still don't think that's bad, and as you say there are people taking the train for other reasons and riding CCT, etc.

On a purely anectdotal level, I have known few people who took public transportation to work. I did, when I lived on St. Charles back in the 70's, and later when I lived in areas like Buckhead, Cascade, Lake Claire and VA-Highland. However, I always made it a point to live where it was easy to get to the bus line, and to work in areas that were frequently served by public transit. If you don't live and work nearby -- and a lot of people just can't -- then it becomes impractical.

Nowadays, it would be ridiculous for me to try to get to work via MARTA (at Perimeter Center). Not one person in my company takes public transportation, because it's simply not feasible, even though we're right in the middle of Atlanta's largest office district. My guess is that it's not feasible for the vast majority of people in metro Atlanta.

I do think public transportation can and will work along the central Peachtree spine. But it's really hard to make a go of it in a city that's lightly spread out over such a vast area.

Edited January 13, 2006 by Andrea