Atlanta's Regional Rail and Transit Systems.

[hokiehigh]

How much longer until the Governor is gone?? This is the time for Atlanta to start pushing for more mass transit. Does the corporate community push for it too? Mayor Franklin?

I live in Chicago and the state barely helps at all. It's a big mess but Mayor Daley gets what he wants and makes it work. It's supposedly part of Chicago's "can do" attitude. I think if enough people kick and scream then progress is made.

I may be relocating to Atlanta soon so I hope that one day it has a superiour mass transit system.

[Martinman]

People have been pushing for more mass transit in some form or another for a long time. We have all kinds of plans for transit routes and we even now have a Transit Planning Board working on a comprehensive, metro-wide transit network but funding is always the problem.

Due to Georgia numerous small counties, state action is required just to allow the counties to band together to fund transit. All we really needed was for the state to get out of the way. A bill that would have achieved this failed by three votes this year but will likely be taken up again next year.

The commuter line that the governer now supports has had about $90 million in federal money sitting on the table for years. The state had zero chance of getting any additional federal money with the money for the commuter route sitting there unused. I don't mean to sound so negative but I suspect that had a lot to do with Perdue's sudden conversion.

Edited June 18, 2008 by Martinman

[Martinman]

Four dollar a gallon gas is having a noticeable impact on local transit and commuting patterns. These statistics appeared in the AJC last weekend.

MARTA

Up 15 percent: train ridership April/May 2008 over April/May 2007 (This is on top of double digit growth in the previous two years. The work-day average was up to 267,000 trips in '07)

GRTA EXPRESS BUS

Up 67 percent: ridership for May 2008 over May 2007

CAR POOLING

Up 221 percent: applications received by the ARC ride-share database in May 2007 vs. May 2008

Douglas County Van Pool Program

Up 160 percent: revenues from May 2008 over May 2007

article

Edited July 4, 2008 by Martinman

[Martinman]

The combined results from the Marta vote in the Gwinnett primaries was 53% No - 47% Yes. There is suspicion in the county that the vote was put on the ballot by Republicans to discourage talk of transit in the county and they were expecting a much more negative response. Instead transit advocates in the county and Marta officials are more encouraged about what could happen if the next time a specific proposal and plan for how the taxes would be spent are on the table.

Maria Saporta article

Edited July 23, 2008 by Martinman

[Martinman]

One small step toward a REGIONAL transit system.

The Transit Planning Board has unanimously adopted

Edited August 28, 2008 by Martinman

[atlrvr]

Thanks for posting that map....all in all, I think it's a great vision.

I do have a couple of qualms.

1. The only new HRT is the west leg. I would like to see more HRT, especially for the extension of the North line up to Alpharetta.

2. I-285 across the northern arc seems like a odd choise for LRT....BRT seems more practical and cheaper. I usually oppose BRT, but it just seems to make more logical sense there.

3. In general, I don't understand why LRT is extended so far out into the suburbs on several lines. CR would serve the purpose.....I can't imagine there is a need for 10-15 minutes headways midday in Canton.

Laslty....I really like the additional LRT along Spring St.....any chance it will be buried?

[Martinman]

RE: #2 It was originally BRT. I'm guessing the change is due to community input. I know the Cobb county chairman has said he wants LRT from Cumberland to Downtown and to Perimeter. Given the quantity of jobs in those areas are though, I think it makes sense.

LRT to Canton on the other hand... .

Also the HRT NE line would be extended one stop to Norcross and I think on the south line its extended to the new international terminal. I would rather see HRT to the Cumberland area more than Alpharetta.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Martinman

[Martinman]

The Canton route was originally part of the proposed commuter rail network. As far as I can determine, its still intended to be commuter rail with the same stations as the 1995 plan. I've read that the state owns most of the track for that route.

If only Roy Barnes wasn't such a jerk that he got run out of town after four years, this plan might be further along.

[Lady Celeste]

I was listening to the radio while driving around looking for premium gas for the Rover and I heard that ridership of MARTA is up 13% over last August. In some cases, some MARTA stations are having to open the remote lots due to the increased number of people taking the rail lines. YAY!

I forgot to add:

According to the American Public Transportation Association, Atlanta boasted the second highest ridership increase in the nation on its heavy-rail system during the second quarter of 2008.

YAY! again......

I hope this strong show of increased interest gives a sign to the statehouse for needed funding. I also would like to add that republican gubernatorial candidate Casey Cagle is now jumping on the transit wagon and is suggesting that metro Atlanta needs to consolidate and have one transit authority! Although he is getting this from Sam Olens...my buddy...at least he is now coming to the light.

YAY, YAY, YAY!!!!!

Edited September 26, 2008 by Lady Celeste

[Martinman]

Developer Jim Jacoby is working with the state to possibly build a commuter rail station at the former Ford Plant site where they are planning 6.5 million square feet of offices and retail space.

The DOT is due to release a long-awaited implementation plan for the commuter rail line tomorrow.

Article: Developer eying commuter rail station for old Ford site

Edited October 17, 2008 by Martinman

[Martinman]

Two bits of transit related news...

The Atlanta Regional Commission has adopted the Concept 3 plan which makes it eligible to be added to the regional transportation plan.

The Atlanta city council unanimously adopted the Connect Atlanta plan which is city's own long range comprehensive transportation plan including roads, sidewalks, bridges, bike paths, and transit.

Several one-way streets in the city are recommended to be converted to two-way in the plan. This pdf document (Connect Atlanta.pdf) is a good summary of the kind of proposals in the plan. More can be found the website Connect Atlanta.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Martinman

[Martinman]

I'm not exactly sure how this will work but a "streetcar starter line" (the Peachtree Streetcar) is part of what was requested by the city/state in the stimulus package.

This is the current plan

Operations

• 8.1 miles; 30 initial stations (1/4 mi.average spacing)
  
• 9 vehicles (modern streetcar type; level boarding)
  
• 30 minute total trip time (entire length)
  
• 10 minute service frequency
  
• Estimated daily ridership: 4,100 (with fare) to 6,500 (free fare)
  

[monsoon]

I think almost every state asked for similar funds for rail transit projects. For the most part these did not appear in the stimulus bill. The money went to national rail and a nominal funding for the New Starts process.

[Martinman]

The reason I say that is that the AJC is reporting that the $1.1 billion in transportation stimulus money awarded to the state will include $144 million for "mass transit systems". They were seeking $121 million for the streetcar project.

In addition the Atlanta Regional Commission will get another $119 million to use for projects and some could conceiveably be used for transit.

I know the streetcar is not specifically in the bill but there is a chance it could get some stimulus funds. I just have no idea how its being handled at the state level. One other rail project that could get some of this money is the long-stalled commuter line to Griffin.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Martinman

[aboutmetro]

Discuss ARRA stimulus transportation projects in Georgia - Link to the Urban Planet Forum

[Martinman]

The ARC now has a breakdown of the stimulus money coming to GA. As far as transit is concerned, Marta will get $65 million which they plan to use to purchase 100 new buses and renovate several rail stations. According to the ARC, none of the planned transit projects in Atlanta meets the criteria for the funds coming from the "New Starts" stimulus.

[mlsimons]

Hey guys, I'm from Norfolk and we are getting a light rail system, talks and studies are underway to expand into Virginia Beach. However, lots of fierce opposition by the majority middle class older population are stirring things up. Specifically the fear is that Norfolk's poor population will hop on the train and head down to the nice wealthier parts, and will bring crime and poverty to Virginia Beach. I counter these arguements as best I can, but the conversation has continually shifted to MARTA being a perfect example of a transit system Virginia Beach doesn't want. I've looked up on wikipedia the basic history and statistics on MARTA, but I was wondering what you guys know that I can investigate further in hopes of finding a reason why MARTA has such a bad reputation. Once I find this out I can hopefully see how this may parallel my hometown, and what is fundamentally different between the two places and rail corridors.

Is there a good website or forum which discusses what MARTA may have historically done wrong?

[j.midtown]

Hey guys, I'm from Norfolk and we are getting a light rail system, talks and studies are underway to expand into Virginia Beach. However, lots of fierce opposition by the majority middle class older population are stirring things up. Specifically the fear is that Norfolk's poor population will hop on the train and head down to the nice wealthier parts, and will bring crime and poverty to Virginia Beach. I counter these arguments as best I can, but the conversation has continually shifted to MARTA being a perfect example of a transit system Virginia Beach doesn't want. I've looked up on wikipedia the basic history and statistics on MARTA, but I was wondering what you guys know that I can investigate further in hopes of finding a reason why MARTA has such a bad reputation. Once I find this out I can hopefully see how this may parallel my hometown, and what is fundamentally different between the two places and rail corridors.

Is there a good website or forum which discusses what MARTA may have historically done wrong?

MARTA didn't do anything wrong other than being a public transit system. The same bigoted and racist arguments were made here when MARTA was being initiated; the white-flight suburbanites didn't want those people riding public transportation out to their (then) lily-white communities. Cobb and Gwinnett counties are not a part of MARTA due to those early attitudes.

Is MARTA perfect? Certainly not, but its biggest issues are a lack of funding/support from the state, a lack of density from unencumbered suburban sprawl in the metro area preventing mass transit from being truly effective, and bigots who won't ride MARTA because people with whom they don't wish to associate do.

I'd ask the people you speak with who denigrate MARTA what specifically they don't like or have heard is wrong with MARTA. Can they cite any specific issues? Can they offer studies of it bringing crime or poverty anywhere? Or do they repeat the alternate racist backronym often used for MARTA?

[krazeeboi]

Hey guys, I'm from Norfolk and we are getting a light rail system, talks and studies are underway to expand into Virginia Beach. However, lots of fierce opposition by the majority middle class older population are stirring things up. Specifically the fear is that Norfolk's poor population will hop on the train and head down to the nice wealthier parts, and will bring crime and poverty to Virginia Beach. I counter these arguements as best I can, but the conversation has continually shifted to MARTA being a perfect example of a transit system Virginia Beach doesn't want. I've looked up on wikipedia the basic history and statistics on MARTA, but I was wondering what you guys know that I can investigate further in hopes of finding a reason why MARTA has such a bad reputation. Once I find this out I can hopefully see how this may parallel my hometown, and what is fundamentally different between the two places and rail corridors.

Is there a good website or forum which discusses what MARTA may have historically done wrong?

I think you should look at the Metro in DC as opposed to MARTA. As it was stated, the suburbanites fought, and still fight, MARTA's expansion into their neighborhoods. But the Metro in DC extends through the vast majority of the city (I don't think there's a direct stop in Georgetown for some of the same backwards reasons) and into Maryland and Virginia, and the extensive network has done the DC region nothing but good.

[mlsimons]

MARTA didn't do anything wrong other than being a public transit system. The same bigoted and racist arguments were made here when MARTA was being initiated; the white-flight suburbanites didn't want those people riding public transportation out to their (then) lily-white communities. Cobb and Gwinnett counties are not a part of MARTA due to those early attitudes.

Is MARTA perfect? Certainly not, but its biggest issues are a lack of funding/support from the state, a lack of density from unencumbered suburban sprawl in the metro area preventing mass transit from being truly effective, and bigots who won't ride MARTA because people with whom they don't wish to associate do.

I'd ask the people you speak with who denigrate MARTA what specifically they don't like or have heard is wrong with MARTA. Can they cite any specific issues? Can they offer studies of it bringing crime or poverty anywhere? Or do they repeat the alternate racist backronym often used for MARTA?

Can you explain more of the "lack of density from unencumbered suburban sprawl in the metro are preventing mass transit from being truly effective" ...this to means seems like an economic problem, which could be fixed/prevented through effective planning. It seems like you are saying that a big part of the problem would be solved should effective transit oriented development be built/incorporated around the stations. Do I have that right? I don't know I've never been to Atlanta.

But yes the statements and opposition are in the form of racist remarks. Va Beach has a history of being the "white flight" folks who left Norfolk in the early 60s due to integration and racial tensions (My parents included). So yes, their opposition, and the opposition of most in VB has everything to do with racism. And they will not ever ride the train if its majority Black. My uncle is from Atlanta, and although he has only ridden Marta a few times, he is under the impression that it is a refuge for gangsters. And although most around here know well of how effective and safe and "white" DC's metro is. They continue to bring up Marta as their expectation for the Norfolk/VB light rail.

Sorry to vent it out on you guys, but the more substantial/economic reasons I can wrap my brain around, as to the reasons why Marta is not running at top effeciency and public opinion, the better I can do to counter racist arguements and comparisons to what is feared for VB. At least I'll feel better, whether or not I am heard.

Although we all know that there will always be racist and that most will never change, and that those who will one day ride the train will probably be the foward-thinking folks who are not racist anyways. The problem/fear is that this issue in VB will go to referendum soon. And guess who will be voting, the racist who will not even live within 10 miles of the line. So I write for a blog, and I would like to effectively counter some of these silent thoughts that I know are what's truly going to decide the referendum.

Edited April 9, 2009 by mlsimons

[j.midtown]

Can you explain more of the "lack of density from unencumbered suburban sprawl in the metro are preventing mass transit from being truly effective" ...this to means seems like an economic problem, which could be fixed/prevented through effective planning. It seems like you are saying that a big part of the problem would be solved should effective transit oriented development be built/incorporated around the stations. Do I have that right? I don't know I've never been to Atlanta.

I'll give it a try, although one could easily write a paper, if not a book, on the subject of Atlanta sprawl (in fact, some have). First though, transit needing density to thrive is a pretty well-covered topic in studies and papers with metrics available for transit station catchment areas (measured by walking distance) and the housing and employment densities needed to support different headways and modes (bus, rail). Fairly intuitively, and simply stated, the more people and destinations the closer to transit stations, the better.

As for the sprawl, first, metropolitan Atlanta has almost no natural geographic boundaries to prevent the spread of development in any direction. It is also at the intersection of three interstates, I-75, I-85 and I-20. In addition to the white flight from the central city, there was the allure of cheap land in the suburbs and those ever-widening interstate highways providing access. During the metro's rapid growth over the last couple of decades, the many surrounding jurisdictions (multiple counties, several cities), each controlling (or not) their own zoning independently of any other jurisdiction, allowed - even encouraged - widespread development to get a piece of the economic action. Now, the City of Atlanta proper represents only about 1/10 the population of the metro area in a land area of approximately 132 sq. miles - small compared to many major cities. The sprawl is nicely visualized on this population density map from Columbia University based on Census data. At the level shown on that US map, Virginia Beach looks much more well-suited to transit than Atlanta.

Perhaps one of the best ways to get an idea of the comparative utility of MARTA versus U.S. cities having more successful transit is this excellent map showing rail systems together in the same scale. Compare Chicago, Boston, DC and the most-used, NYC and how much better they cover similar geographic areas.

MARTA, due to the aforementioned political issues, is funded by and directly serves only two of the counties in metro Atlanta: Fulton (where the CoA resides) and the adjacent Dekalb which together represent almost 40% of the metro population. Obviously that leaves several suburbs and population centers unserved and largely disconnected from MARTA. In the last decade or so, Gwinnett and Cobb, northern arc suburban counties representing roughly another 30% of the metro population, have both created their own (bus-only) transit systems that connect to MARTA via commuter routes into the city. Gwinnett commuters were already substantial users of MARTA via parking at the end stations of the NE line.

Even within the city proper, Atlanta is less dense than some other large US cities. Here is an Atanta city map showing population density and MARTA rail and bus routes. You might also view the Walkscore heat map for Atlanta to get an idea of walkable (generally more dense) neighborhoods versus less dense neighborhoods (most) in the city. You will see some areas adjacent to MARTA rail stations such as Lindbergh that are now more dense/walkable as a result of initiatives by MARTA with business leaders to drive TOD. ARC, the regional planning agency, and other organizations have also tried to encourage and drive increased density with some success, most notably in Buckhead, Midtown and Downtown where developers have embraced the urban condo lifestyle.

However, until the housing bubble popped in our current recession, nothing seemed capable of checking the sprawl. Foreclosures have been high in the region and there are over 140,000 prepared but unbuilt SFR lots in the metro area. Numerous small homebuilders have gone out of business or bankrupt and some large players are leaving the market. Could the recession have a silver lining in the long run?

Anyway, this has gotten long, but hope it helps a little. Be sure to take a look at the Brookings paper I linked in the first graf.

[monsoon]

.... But the Metro in DC extends through the vast majority of the city (I don't think there's a direct stop in Georgetown for some of the same backwards reasons) and into Maryland and Virginia, and the extensive network has done the DC region nothing but good.

It has been posted on several transit sites, and the stuff of urban legend the reason that the DC Metro did not go into Georgetown was due to the upscale people living there being afraid of providing transit access to the "undesirables" who lived in the rest of DC. That wasn't the case. There are some serious engineering challenges to running a train to Georgetown as the area was once a swamp, and the decision was made, at the time, not to do it due to the cost.

This urban legend did have its roots however in a similar decision made in Cobb county to specifically not to join up with Marta when it was first conceived. I am sure that 30 years later they most likely regret it as there is no money now, as there was in the 70s, to build heavy rail into the suburbs.

-----------------

Marta and DC's Metrorail are peer systems of each other because they were built around the same time, with the same objectives, and used a great deal of the technology the US govt. helped fund for BART in SF. (this is why they all look and sound similar). There was a federal project in the 1960s to do research on building inner city passenger rail using late 20th century technology since everything rolling in the country at that time was based on pre-WWII designs. Electronic ticketing, lightweight EMUs based on aircraft building techniques, automatic train control, etc were all invented during this phase. As time went on this technology was applied to BART, MARTA and Metrorail as examples of how it should be done. Unfortunately federal policy beginning with Reaganism was to move away from this model and leave transit to the private sector. (really meant automobiles and airplanes) The lessons and technology learned during this process were abandoned, and companies such as Rohr got out of the train building business.

[mlsimons]

As for the sprawl, first, metropolitan Atlanta has almost no natural geographic boundaries to prevent the spread of development in any direction. It is also at the intersection of three interstates, I-75, I-85 and I-20. In addition to the white flight from the central city, there was the allure of cheap land in the suburbs and those ever-widening interstate highways providing access. During the metro's rapid growth over the last couple of decades, the many surrounding jurisdictions (multiple counties, several cities), each controlling (or not) their own zoning independently of any other jurisdiction, allowed - even encouraged - widespread development to get a piece of the economic action. Now, the City of Atlanta proper represents only about 1/10 the population of the metro area in a land area of approximately 132 sq. miles - small compared to many major cities. The sprawl is nicely visualized on this population density map from Columbia University based on Census data. At the level shown on that US map, Virginia Beach looks much more well-suited to transit than Atlanta.

Ok, its starting to make more sense...thanks for all the maps/charts. The completely understand and agree that the enemy here is sprawl. And without density, it doesn't matter how great the population is, there will be a more attractive method of transportation...the car! However one thing that Norfolk/VB does have is geographic barriers to development. Water is everywhere, ocean to the east, Bay to the North and Northwest, and rivers, lakes and swamps everywhere. However this also provides lots of jobs b/c of the ports and shipyards and other water related industry. If you look at the map, you will see that development is a lot denser due to these barriers and pretty good policies which have kept the transportation and development from creating a sprawl situation.

That being said the traffic has extreme bottlenecks and problem areas all over. The secondary roads are flooded with commuters and the tunnels (of which we have 6) consistently have a 6-8 mile backup in the evenings. The entire makeup of our city is completely different than most. We are not a monocentric city with one CBD, but instead we have several huge employment centers which create a very well dispensed medium density region. We have the oceanfront to the east, downtown Norfolk to the West, Norfolk naval station to the north (largest naval station in the world and area's single greatest employer), and town center in the middle...plus the airport, shipyards, the ports, Old Dominion University and Oceana air base. All are large employers spread variously throughout the city. And there's the peninsula across the Bay which houses a third of our population.

So we really have no city to compare ourselves but given the economics and spatial issues, a transit system has a pretty good chance of working. Thanks again for the info, its helped a lot.

Lastly: here is our transit vision plan which includes light rail, commuter rail, Bus rapid transit and speed ferries. And a connection to High speed rail to Richmond

http://www.hamptonroadstransitplan.com/PDF...20submitted.pdf

Edited April 10, 2009 by mlsimons

[monsoon]

....

So we really have no city to compare ourselves but given the economics and spatial issues, a transit system has a pretty good chance of working. Thanks again for the info, its helped a lot......

I would say that it is very similar to the situation faced in South Florida.

However aside from that, and I looked through that plan you posted, I would say the plan has little chance of being fully implemented and for the parts that will be built, will most likely fail spectacularly.

The reason for this and it's the same reason that LRT in Charlotte has had little success on these lines, why the heavy rail system in Miami is very underutilized, why Marta never met it's potential, is because local municipalities will not say no to developers and federal money to build highways. All of these glossy plans put forth by transit agencies and consultants that collect millions producing them (not unbiased) miss this point and operate under the broken assumption that transit drives responsible development. It doesn't. It never has and never will as long as vast accommodations continue to be made for the automobile.

[Martinman]

MARTA didn't do anything wrong other than being a public transit system. The same bigoted and racist arguments were made here when MARTA was being initiated; the white-flight suburbanites didn't want those people riding public transportation out to their (then) lily-white communities. Cobb and Gwinnett counties are not a part of MARTA due to those early attitudes.

Is MARTA perfect? Certainly not, but its biggest issues are a lack of funding/support from the state, a lack of density from unencumbered suburban sprawl in the metro area preventing mass transit from being truly effective, and bigots who won't ride MARTA because people with whom they don't wish to associate do.

I'd ask the people you speak with who denigrate MARTA what specifically they don't like or have heard is wrong with MARTA. Can they cite any specific issues? Can they offer studies of it bringing crime or poverty anywhere? Or do they repeat the alternate racist backronym often used for MARTA?

I agree 100%. When I read the question, I was thinking everything that you wrote but didn't have a chance to respond.