Atlanta's Regional Rail and Transit Systems.

[Andrea]

I completely agree with you, but we must make a distinction between living an urban lifestyle and simply living inside 285. You are corect that most intowners drive to work. That is a function of failed land use planning and outdated spatial thinking. The big issue here is not how they get to work but how all of the other necessities of life are achieved. Most of my friends while still using their cars to commute, walk or bike to restaurants or bars, the post office, friends houses, and most (but not all) shopping. Even the dynamics of commuting would start to change if more people were to make the concious decision to move into an urban area.

When I lived in VA-Highland almost everybody drove to work, even though a lot of us still worked downtown. In those days (1980's) I was viewed as sort of an oddball for riding the bus. It was easy to walk to neighborhood bars and restaurants but there wasn't much shopping nearby.

Employers, and I am one of them now, take onto account the available labor force when making decisions about office locations. Businesses moved to the burbs because that's where the people were going. Rest assured they would move back into the city if their employees did.

I agree. Isn't it the old saw in real estate that retail follows rooftops, and that jobs follow retail?

I have read posts that say moving intown and using transit isn't feasible because the transit system is so inadequate. What thay fail to understand is that our transit system being inadequate is the direct result of people not wanting to live in the city. And why would they? As long as the federal government continues to subsidize their lifestyle and they are not forced to pay for the true costs to society, they can have their cake and eat it too.

I know I'm always harping on this, but I think another factor is the quality of schools. Unless city schools are able to compete with suburban schools, the burbs are going to continue to siphon off families.

[SAV]

Does anyone think that Charlotte will surpass Atlanta as the Southeast's main city or just overshadow it because of there new transit system that they are actually doing instead of plannig?

Edited May 1, 2006 by SAV

[LizellaJacket]

Does anyone think that Charlotte will surpass Atlanta as the Southeast's main city or just overshadow it because of there new transit system that they are actually doing instead of plannig?

Not in my lifetime or probably my kid's lifetime(and I don't even have kids). ATL is just to centrally located and the airport will always make ATL an important destination. Charlotte will always have an inferioirty complex to Atlanta eventhough its a fine city in its own right.

[teshadoh]

Don't get ahead of yourself SAV, they are building one light rail line - the other 1 or 2 light rail lines, 1 commuter line & the rest being BRT aren't under construction yet.

But that isn't to say Charlotte might in 50+ years, Charlotte is nearly a spitting image of Atlanta in the 1960's/1970's (minus the population density / urban core) when Atlanta was well ahead of the south by developing a transit system.

But as much as it does dissapoint me the unwilligness of the state or local governments to support MARTA - we shouldn't forget we still do have a rail system that is well used & will become far more signficant when the various future transit projects are on line. All the commuter rail, light rail, streetcar & BRT lines will feed into MARTA - because without MARTA, no one would be discussing any of these various transit systems.

[atlrvr]

Ok.....so now that there are several towers completed in Midtown (Plaza, Metropolitan, and Spire), has there been a noticable demographic shift on the N and NE lines between midtown and downtown? I guess what I'm really asking is are these people who are paying $200k and up utilizing the most attractive amenity.

I know Brad has ranted before that many people who live intown still drive the SUV, and someone on some forum made the comment that they wouldn't dare walk from Metropolis to the midtown Marta station, but certainly there has to be a growing momentum for car free living, or at least car free most of the time living.

[catlike]

I know Brad has ranted before that many people who live intown still drive the SUV, and someone on some forum made the comment that they wouldn't dare walk from Metropolis to the midtown Marta station,

That latter item was met with a resounding, "huh...wha?", so I don't think it's really indicative of how people feel. I know I see plenty of people on the street in Midtown day or night, especially when the weather is nice.

[teshadoh]

On another forum that respondent was roundly heckled by that comment - but atlrvr, just from a non-scientific survey of commuting habits, I'm less cynical. Of course a lot of it has to do with gas prices, but in the past year - I can't get over how popular scooters have become. 2 years ago it was the Mini, which are still popular - but the scooter is huge now. Not to mention I see a lot more bicyclists, though on my side of downtown it's predominately college students (which in itself is a huge change from the time I went to college at GSU) but there are a good number of business people too.

What these commuting methods point out to - in my view - is that there are more people living close enough to their work place. Bicycles & scooters are not for long distance commuting, so I'm optimistic that Atlanta is finally witnessing a surge of - at least part-time - non-car oriented travelors.

Also - at least on weekend trips to Atlantic Station, there are a large number of people electing to walk / take the shuttle to shop from MARTA - not just employees of AS. But as for my regular bus route - I haven't noticed much change. Which unfortunately still means there is a huge stereotype against intown bus routes.

But overall - I'm quite pleased with the Atlanta of this year compared with 5 years ago.

[teshadoh]

Just an idea of what the transit system may look by 2030, or hopefully sooner depending on state level politics:

This doesn't include the Peachtree St streetcar line which will depend largely on private funding. Nor does it include a proposed MARTA heavy rail extension on the North line to Alpharetta, an alternative East expansion to Lithonia, or a BRT line extending from the West line to Fulton Industrial. Also, the commuter rail does continue to Lovejoy & would extend to Macon based again - on funding. Lastly, their is still great level of support for the Atlanta Athens rail line, but again it depends on the Atlanta Macon rail line to be complete.

Edited May 5, 2006 by teshadoh

[SAV]

Boy, that map sucks. I hope we get more progress than that or we'll be spending the night on these highways.

[Andrea]

Just an idea of what the transit system may look by 2030, or hopefully sooner depending on state level politics:

This doesn't include the Peachtree St streetcar line which will depend largely on private funding. Nor does it include a proposed MARTA heavy rail extension on the North line to Alpharetta, an alternative East expansion to Lithonia, or a BRT line extending from the West line to Fulton Industrial. Also, the commuter rail does continue to Lovejoy & would extend to Macon based again - on funding. Lastly, their is still great level of support for the Atlanta Athens rail line, but again it depends on the Atlanta Macon rail line to be complete.

Brad, that's pretty cool. It looks like the "epicenter" may actually be up around Lindbergh or Armour Yard. Is that right?

[teshadoh]

Lindbergh would serve as both North & Northeast MARTA transfer as it is now, Beltline (requirring a spur), & Buford Hwy BRT.

[teshadoh]

Maria Saporta wrote another good editorial on Atlanta's embarrassing mark as being 1 of only 3 major metro areas that either don't or are not actively planning for a commuter rail line. Detroit & Tampa share Atlanta's company - though there is a rail line partially funded waiting to go, but GA DOT & the state legislative are figuring out ways to cancel the project.

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/busine...508saporta.html

[SAV]

Maria Saporta wrote another good editorial on Atlanta's embarrassing mark as being 1 of only 3 major metro areas that either don't or are not actively planning for a commuter rail line. Detroit & Tampa share Atlanta's company - though there is a rail line partially funded waiting to go, but GA DOT & the state legislative are figuring out ways to cancel the project.

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/busine...508saporta.html

OMG. This is why I said other cities that are 2nd tier like Charlotte are going to eventually move pass Atlanta. In 25 years other REGIONS not cities are going to have great transit options. All we are going to have is the beltline- a waste of time and money, and a bunch of bus routes. And I'll be damned if I get outta my car for a bus. Call it sadity, pompous or whatever, buses will not attract people. To me, having a bus route would be moving backwards. I think MARTA needs to pull the 5 county rail plan back up and get a campaign and everything else to get this thing back up and running. AND THOSE COUNTIES NEED HEAVY RAIL IN SOME AREAS NOT JUST COMMUTER RAIL. We also need a campaign for commuter rails all over GA. NOT Tennessee. We should fix our own state 1st.

Maybe a person who worked on the Transit boards for NYC or somewhere can help us out.

I think we need to stop complaining on this board and go out and start doing something. Come on yall, we need to be pro-active. Or at least get Purdue outta office come November.

[teshadoh]

^ Keep in mind that Charlotte's transit system will be mostly BRT itself: "28 miles of BRT guideways, 21 miles of LRT, 11 miles of streetcars, 30 miles of commuter rail" (http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/Rapid+Transit+Planning/T.P.+-+2025+System+Plan.htm), & the build out isn't until 2025. Not that I don't think Charlotte's transit plan is great, I do in fact - but every initial transit plan includes a extensive system. That doesn't mean every line is always built out fully.

But - we should look to Dallas as a similar sized metro & is building light rail lines that reach far into the suburbs, as well as commuter rail to Ft Worth. Also, Denver has an ambitious rail plan that is also being built out in a short time period, due to a region-wide referendum.

As for future MARTA expansion - though a GA 400 extension is needed & short extensions are possible for the East & West. I think MARTA is built out for what it can accomplish. The infastructure is far too expensive to expand & the population densities are far too small in the suburb to support a massive expansion that would overlap future BRT or commuter lines. For the cost of expanding MARTA to Alpharetta - we can build out all the BRT lines that would connect Kennesaw, Lawrenceville, Stone Mountain, Jonesboro, Duluth & Lithonia in half the time.

I think we need a reality check - the funding doesn't exist for any metro in the country to extend MARTA to 3 more counties. Atlanta will be within 10 to 20 years at a total traffic impass if nothing is done - Atlanta needs something extensive & quick. BRT lines can be switched to light rail - which is what I hope will happen. Regarding commuter rail - that is essentially how MARTA functions in the suburbs, just as BART & METRO were designed - they are commuter oriented transit systems. Designed for people to drive & park at the station. So there is little difference between a suburban MARTA extension & a commuter rail line except cost & build out time.

[monsoon]

^ Keep in mind that Charlotte's transit system will be mostly BRT itself: "28 miles of BRT guideways, 21 miles of LRT, 11 miles of streetcars, 30 miles of commuter rail" (http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/Rapid+Transit+Planning/T.P.+-+2025+System+Plan.htm), & the build out isn't until 2025. Not that I don't think Charlotte's transit plan is great, I do in fact - but every initial transit plan includes a extensive system. That doesn't mean every line is always built out fully.

That actually has not been decided yet. What you are reading is a proposal from 2002. Its sounding more as if it will be all rail based in Charlotte. Most likely 3 light rail lines, the center city street car system, and commuter rail. The MTC will decide by the end of the summer the final makeup of the initial 6 lines.

I think for Atlanta to get it's transit system back on tract they need to get a consolidated voice of the affected counties where they can make a stronger case in the GA Legislature. In addition they need a transit tax due to the fact that transit is so expensive, and that the Federal government is MIA when it comes to funding now.

[Lady Celeste]

Brad, I really wished you would consider working for GRTA. You know alot about transit. You would be a welcomed voice on the GRTA board. Should I start a letter writing campaign? Would you consider such a role? Maybe you could convince the state legislature that public transportation is what is needed to keep the Atlanta region very competitive in the future. I am of your thinking....Georgia, MARTA, GRTA and metro Atlanta should look to Dallas and DART as a model.

I read the article and it was saddening. Unfortunately, until Georgia starts to operate as one state, MARTA or GRTA will suffer.

[teshadoh]

Brad, I really wished you would consider working for GRTA. You know alot about transit. You would be a welcomed voice on the GRTA board. Should I start a letter writing campaign? Would you consider such a role? Maybe you could convince the state legislature that public transportation is what is needed to keep the Atlanta region very competitive in the future. I am of your thinking....Georgia, MARTA, GRTA and metro Atlanta should look to Dallas and DART as a model.

I read the article and it was saddening. Unfortunately, until Georgia starts to operate as one state, MARTA or GRTA will suffer.

Celeste - I'm honored you think so highly of me, but I can assure you - some of the people I work with are far more knowledgeable about transit planning than I. In fact - I'm hopeful one coworker will be the new primary planner for the new Transit Board that is starting up soon. I'm just a GIS Analyst, I try to make the planners look good

Regarding Dallas though, it's still just a start up system - what Atlanta likely really needs to view is a post-start up system. Like NYC, Boston, Chicago or even Washington - cities that have or are near to having mature heavy rail systems with minimal expansion. At some point it is simply not feasible to expand heavy rail - especially now with the huge cost of ROW & it's cost. Though NYC is expanding one line & METRO has too - these cities are now expending more resources into light rail or BRT. How a transit system with multiple transit types of types of usage is the tricky part.

But Dallas' ability to venture far into the suburbs like Plano should still be an interest to Atlanta. But we forget that MARTA in the 70's was essentially what the new or planned systems of Charlotte, Houston & Dallas were. As pessimistic that I am that we'll witness a heavy rail expansion again, I'm not convinced that Atlanta's present transit system is anything to be ashamed of or that we should be leery of what is going on in those cities.

[Andrea]

Brad, I really wished you would consider working for GRTA. You know alot about transit. You would be a welcomed voice on the GRTA board. Should I start a letter writing campaign?

Sign me on as a supporter. Brad for GRTA!!

[Hybrid0NE]

BRT lines can be switched to light rail - which is what I hope will happen.

Good point tesh..., that is the silver lining on the cloud called BRT. That being said, could it become popular enough to swith over to light-rail or will GDOT find a way to take cars off the freeways and get them on these dedicated mass transit guideways.

One big difference between the Charlotte and Atlanta systems are there are fewer counties involved and because there is a specific local sales tax to fund transit, Charlotte is less prone to state politics when it comes to transit funding. The NC Legislature also seems more pro-transit than the GA Legislature considering they are running a state funded rail network and paying for the NC portion of the South East High Speed Rail project that will connect Charlotte and other NC cities to DC.

The fact that Mecklenburg County covers the majority of Charlotte's rail-transit coverage is a major advantage. The county and city are so intertwined now, that not assisting the other will only hurt themself. I also think that North Carolina having multiple major metropolitan areas makes commuter rail more desirable. Sometimes I think the rest of Georgia sees Atlanta as this overgrown sprawling montrouscity and want nothing to do with it; sheering our chances of connecting commuter lines other cities.

[Hybrid0NE]

I read the article and it was saddening. Unfortunately, until Georgia starts to operate as one state, MARTA or GRTA will suffer.

NoGA Succession! We can fire the first shot if those cannons on Kennesaw still work.

[Lady Celeste]

You are more than welcome. I give credit where credit is due. You and Newnan_Eric definitely have a love for "all things urban."

I must say though, I can't understand for me why space was not left for MARTA to travel up GA400 into Alpharetta. I have lived in North Fulton or close to it for a very long time. Even as a child I remember talk of MARTA coming. Unlike Gwinnett and Cobb counties, North Fulton of the 80's was eager to get public transportation up GA 400. Unforunately legislators from outside of metro Atlanta balked at the idea of the state helping fund MARTA. Now with land prices what they are, it will be next to impossible to get heavy rail up to Windward Pkwy. Back when I went to a MARTA meeting in 2000 the price was huge. IIRC, it was five billion dollars. I can only imagine what it is in today's dollars.

I think the state should just bite the bullet and build a metro wide system. If outstate lesgislatures want to complain, ask them imagine a Georgia without Atlanta.

[Hybrid0NE]

I think the state should just bite the bullet and build a metro wide system. If outstate lesgislatures want to complain, ask them imagine a Georgia without Atlanta.

The late 1800's, they'd probably prefer that lifestyle and everyone (all 1.5 million of them) would live around Savannah (not that there's anything wrong with Savannah).

Edited May 8, 2006 by Hybrid0NE

[teshadoh]

Sign me on as a supporter. Brad for GRTA!!

Andrea - you probably know Paul (Martarider) from SSP, now he is someone that truly understands transit. But I just pick up info from people smarter than me (like martarider or terminus - another ssp'er or martinman / micropundit) - so thank them for me just reiterating what they tell me

Edited May 8, 2006 by teshadoh

[Andrea]

Andrea - you probably know Paul (Martarider) from SSP, now he is someone that truly understands transit. But I just pick up info from people smarter than me (like martarider or terminus - another ssp'er or martinman / micropundit) - so thank them for me just reiterating what they tell me

Well, if that's the case you certainly do a good job of picking it up and presenting in an understandable way, Brad.

[Newnan_Eric]

You are more than welcome. I give credit where credit is due. You and Newnan_Eric definitely have a love for "all things urban."

While I appreciate the props, it's not just urbanity that I love. (I do live in the exurbs afterall.) However, I do have a particular distaste for sprawling development.

I lived for a time in the Netherlands - by some accounts one of the most densly populated countries in the world. This would conjure up images of people living cheeck-to-jowl with one another. This is the case in the so-called Ranstaad region - a crescent from Rotterdam to The Hague to Amsterdam to Utrecht. But, outside of that, there is ample countryside. What they do there is have compact towns with definable limits. In even a small town you will have apartments over shops, and townhomes are the most prevalent housing style. Outside of towns it is rural land dotted with the occasional farmhouse.

This is why rail works there. It goes from point to point through rural areas. When it does stop, it is at a town of significant size, with reasonable denisty.

One of the reasons I am such a fan of the commuter rail concept is that it would help us move in that direction. The costs are comparatively low (as compared to a new system), and it would stop mostly at places that are historic town centers. Some of these are places that pre-date our current development patterns and could support denser development that would then in-turn further support the rail system.

However the current state administration does not see things the same way. The governor just signed the budget bill and did not use the line item veto to remove the clause restricting commuter rail purchases.