Learn from Past?

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

- Herman Goering

Not every item of news should be published. Rather must those who control news policies endeavor to make every item of news serve a certain purpose.

It is the absolute right of the state to supervise the formation of public opinion.

- Josef Goebbels

The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, for the vast masses of a nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a big lie than a small one, for they themselves often tell little lies, but would be ashamed to tell big lies.

All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those toward whom it is directed will understand it... Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.

The great masses of the people ... will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one.

The efficiency of the truly national leader consists primarily in preventing the division of the attention of a people, and always in concentrating it on a single enemy.

- Adolf Hilter

_________________________________

The parallels between Germany in 1930 and the US in 2005 are not exact (historical parallels never are) but, the Neo-Conservatives have seemingly learned mightily from the National Socialists.

Bush (and the Neo-Conservatives) lie about WMD and no one in the US seems to care.

Bush (and the Neo-Conservatives) breaks International Law and no one in the US seems to care.

Bush (and the Neo-Conservatives) uses gays and liberals to stir intolerance, hatred, and fear in the US and no one seems to care.

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

What's a Neo-Conservative's Objectives?

Courtesy of the Christian Science Monitor

Admin's note: Deleted. Please read the forum rules about posting complete news clippings. You may remove this note if you decide to repost

[Spartan]

What is your point? All I see is left wing drivel here.

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

What is your point? All I see is left wing drivel here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The "Christian Science Monitor" is "left-wing drivel"? Open your mind and see that it's neither "Democrat" nor "Republican"...

Here's my point,

"The parallels between Germany in 1930 and the US in 2005 are not exact (historical parallels never are) but, the Neo-Conservatives have seemingly learned mightily from the National Socialists.

Bush (and the Neo-Conservatives) lie about WMD and no one in the US seems to care.

Bush (and the Neo-Conservatives) breaks International Law and no one in the US seems to care.

Bush (and the Neo-Conservatives) uses gays and liberals to stir intolerance, hatred, and fear in the US and no one seems to care."

Are you more of a Patriot than I?

[waccamatt]

There are alot of parallels. Hopefully the electorate will realize this before it's too late. The current administration has done ALOT of bullying of the news media.

[Spartan]

The "Christian Science Monitor" is "left-wing drivel"?  Open your mind and see that it's neither "Democrat" nor "Republican"...

Here's my point,

"The parallels between Germany in 1930 and the US in 2005 are not exact (historical parallels never are) but, the Neo-Conservatives have seemingly learned mightily from the National Socialists.

Bush (and the Neo-Conservatives) lie about WMD and no one in the US seems to care.

Bush (and the Neo-Conservatives) breaks International Law and no one in the US seems to care.

Bush (and the Neo-Conservatives) uses gays and liberals to stir intolerance, hatred, and fear in the US and no one seems to care."

Are you more of a Patriot than I?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said the CSM was left wing. I know it to be a fairly well balanced paper. I also never said anything about your patriotism. Your post seemed to be an attempt at Bush bashing, which is why I made the left wing comment. The similarities are striking though.

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

"Bush bashing"? What's wrong with bashing Bush?

In my opinion, Bush is an extension of the neo-conservatives. That what makes the similarities between Germany and the US - while not exact parallels - frightening nonetheless.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

I don't know about Bush being a neo-conservative. I believe his true beliefs are hidden behind his political persona. He has been quoted before running for govenor as having more 'liberal' beliefs then one would expect now.

He is giving in to the ones who are paying him and getting him into power. The fundamentalists have gotten what they want.

[I-275westcoastflorida]

Lol please dont say bush is the next hitler or like him because if u are im gonna fall off my computer chair in laughter. Bush isnt the only one who voted for the war congress had to approve it so its more like our government who violated the international laws.

[AmericanUrbanDesigner]

Lol please dont say bush is the next hitler or like him because if u are im gonna fall off my computer chair in laughter. Bush isnt the only one who voted for the war congress had to approve it so its more like our government who violated the international laws.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They voted for war b/c they were lied to about an imminent threat. (Re-read the quote from Herman Goering...)

All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

[Spartan]

The key difference between now and then is that in an autocracy the leaders can do this consciously. In our case, it was a mistake (albiet a large one) on the intelligence community's part. Like 275 said, Congressional leaders saw the same intel that Bush did, and came to the same conclusion.

[monsoon]

Spartan brings up a good point. Unlike Nazi Germany of 1939 we are not living under a dictatorship. The problem for the people who are against Bush is they have not come up with a compelling enough story as to why they should be supported instead. The national democratic party has completely sundered itself and really needs to look at why it lost this election rather than blame the people who did not vote for it.

[Scott]

Spartan brings up a good point.  Unlike Nazi Germany of 1939 we are not living under a dictatorship.  The problem for the people who are against Bush is they have not come up with a compelling enough story as to why they should be supported instead.  The national democratic party has completely sundered itself and really needs to look at why it lost this election rather than blame the people who did not vote for it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Though I think any comparisons to Nazi Germany is waaaay over the top and cannot be taken seriously, I also disagree with the assesment of the national Democrats. Any president that had Sept 11th happen while in office and was competent should never have had to engage in a smear campaign to get re-elected.

Sad fact is that 45% of this country would vote for Bush even if he was Adolf Hiltler for reasons of partisan or regional pride. I've heard many times on this forum that Bush makes people "proud to be from the South". The north is painted as "elitist" in an attempt to divide people on anything but real issues.

John Kerry might not have been a great candidate but lets be honest about why Bush won.... he fooled enough people down South with his "Miss-oo-rah!" act.

[Scott]

The key difference between now and then is that in an autocracy the leaders can do this consciously. In our case, it was a mistake (albiet a large one) on the intelligence community's part. Like 275 said, Congressional leaders saw the same intel that Bush did, and came to the same conclusion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Congressional leaders do not get the same daily fyeo briefing as the president. Though I don't blame the administration for Sept 11th happening, there were definite signs that were missed.

As far as WMD and the invasion of Iraq there is no excuse for being so completely and fatally wrong. They wanted it to happen and ignored any evidence that was contrary to their assertions. Blaming the CIA lets Bush and the Neo-cons off the hook and that would be an incorrect interpitation of history. btw-It never fails to amaze me how men who chickened out of Viet Nam could be so hypocritically gung-ho.

[monsoon]

John Kerry might not have been a great candidate but lets be honest about why Bush won.... he fooled enough people down South with his "Miss-oo-rah!" act.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If, by this, you are saying the elections are now decided by Southerners, then Kerry's strategy of "winning the election without the South" does indeed seem very foolish.

If you are not saying that elections are won by Southerners, then it is a moot point and only goes to prove that Democrats do not have a compelling message anymore.

I completely agree with what you said concerning the war and WMD's but the big failure by Democrats in this is they completely supported the President on this matter as long as they though it was politically popular. Instead, they should have been fighting for absolute proof which none of them, including Kerry did. Its this lack of commitment to stand for anything that has killed the national Democrats. Hopefully some Southerners will take over the party but it seems that the Dems are going to have to lose a few more elections before this happens. The recent nomination of Dean to the head of the party indicates they still "Don't Get It".

[Scott]

What's the Republican message that is so popular... hate gay people?... drill in Alaska? ... Social Security reform?

no, its regional pride that is Bushs base.

[monsoon]

What's the Republican message that is so popular... hate gay people?... drill in Alaska? ... Social Security reform?

no, its regional pride that is Bushs base.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe Kerry said that he was against Gay Marriage.

Drilling in Alaska and SS reform were not agendas of the 2004 election, but I will note there are no Democratic plans for either of these items.

Your implication the South is full of idiots is fairly laughable, and only mirrors the reasons that NE democrats can't win national elections anymore. "Blame the voter, not the politician".

[Scott]

I believe Kerry said that he was against Gay Marriage. 

Drilling in Alaska and SS reform were not agendas of the 2004 election, but I will note there are no Democratic plans for either of these items. 

Your implication the South is full of idiots is fairly laughable, and only mirrors the reasons that NE democrats can't win national elections anymore.  "Blame the voter, not the politician".   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Grow up, I never said or implyed that anyone was an idiot. I said that the Republicans are trying to play one region off on the other to win elections, which is true IMO.

I'm sorry we cannot discuss this without there being hurt feelings. Maybe that's part of why this country is so divided.

[monsoon]

Oh, did I misunderstand what you meant by "he fooled enough people down South with his "Miss-oo-rah!" act.".

Considering that Bush won not only both the Electoral vote but the Popular vote (and decisively too) I would say, that he must have "fooled" most of America. There is no regional bias to this.

I don't have any hurt feelings as these are just the facts.

[Benhamin]

Dean is a bad choice to lead the Dems, imo. He is too far out there to bring most of the country back to seeing the lies of the current administration.

Bush is a puppet, no more. The people that really control our policy are in the conservative think tank, The New American Century. They have been controlling the Repubs since Reagan. Some of this stuff is scary:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

[Scott]

Oh, did I misunderstand what you meant by "he fooled enough people down South with his "Miss-oo-rah!" act.". 

Yes you did... after the first presidential debate in Missori Bush was critisized in the media for over playing his southern accent. People from that state said he pronounced Missouri wrong. I thought you followed politics so you might actually get the reference.

"Blame the voter, not the politician".

Nobody held a gun to Southerners heads and made them vote for Bush. Don't try to tell me they were forced to by the Democrats, that's silly. I'm sure they are proud of their states choice as I am proud that Massachusetts is the state with big enough balls to stand up to him.

btw- Two days ago their was a thread title "why they hate us" or something like that in the North Carolina section. I read about one page and couldn't believe it. Go re-read that and tell me that people aren't being led to believe some real crap.

[monsoon]

Yes you did... after the first presidential debate in Missori Bush was critisized in the media for over playing his southern accent. People from that state said he pronounced Missouri wrong. I thought you followed politics so you might actually get the reference.

Nobody held a gun to Southerners heads and made them vote for Bush. Don't try to tell me they were forced to by the Democrats, that's silly. I'm sure they are proud of their states choice as I am proud that Massachusetts is the state with big enough balls to stand up to him.

btw- Two days ago their was a thread title "why they hate us" or something like that in the North Carolina section. I read about one page and couldn't believe it. Go re-read that and tell me that people aren't being led to believe some real crap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You completely miss the point. Nobody said people voted for Bush with a gun pointed at their head. What has been said is that Democrats failed to put forth ANY message as to why it is better to vote for them, and this is especially true of the head of the party at the time, John Kerry. I just hope your state has enough balls to not inflict this career politician on the US Senate again when Kerry's term is due. I'm afraid however we will see him again. It's politicians like Kerry who have destroyed the Democratic party. We need someone new to lead the party.

I did re-read that thread. Much of it is on the mark. It was thead about CLT forumers being bashed on OTHER less mature forums, but we consider that topic to be inappropriate for UP so it was deleted. I don't see where it has anything to do with people voting for Bush or not.

[Scott]

I'd rather have Kerry than Bush cronies Burr and Dole but thanks for the advice.

[Scott]

I don't see where it has anything to do with people voting for Bush or not.

I was talking about the first page where it starts with the boo hooing about how southern white males are oppressed by the godless northerners.

[monsoon]

I was talking about the first page where it starts with the boo hooing about how southern white males are oppressed by the godless northerners.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They were making a joke about the kinds of posts that appear on other forums. No one here was saying that.