Where does Kentucky fit?

[Rural King]

I always I have viewed (as others on this thread have stated) the Ohio River as the division of the South from the Midwest.

Kentucky IMO really is two states. The "Golden Triangle" fixed on Louisville, Covington (ie NKY) and Lexington which is modern, more affluent, and has aspects of strong northern influences in two of its key anchors (Louisville and Covington/NKY); then the "rest of the state". That "rest of the state" is definately southern. You head south or southwest from the Triangle you are in a true southern state by any standard which includes the redneck stereotypes, while if you head east to the eastern mountainous end of the state you have southern Appalachia with its strong aspects of southern culture and corresponding hillbilly stereotypes.

By far most of the state geographically and culturally is southern IMO, with basically only a few river towns and adjacent regions along the Ohio having aspects of notherness to them. Accordingly areas such as southern Indiana, southern Illinois, and southern Ohio have strong southern aspects to them, but on the whole those are unquestionable Midwestern states when viewed as whole political and geographical units.

[PghUSA]

Louisville has always seemed as a "southern" city to me, and to me the trademark of the state. Being from Pittsburgh I have a certain habit of viewing Kentucky as that state just beyond West Virgina on the Ohio River. For that matter much of the eastern half is almost "Applachia" which although maybe a subclass of "southern" really isn't the same as Georgia or Mississippi or Louisiana. Kentucky is in-between, I'd say geographically it is Mid-Western, but demographically it is mountaineer/southern.

[theSuburbs]

I always thought of it as a southern state. Kentucky fits in the same category as Tennessee and Virginia to me.

[Plasticman]

having lived in Tennessee for 14 years and Kentucky for four years, they are different from about Elizabethtown north to Louisville. Anything from E-town south through Bowling Green into Tennessee are pretty much the same.

I'd say you could split Kentucky in half along those lines and pretty much sum up the southern / northern debate.

[Spartan]

Just a little history lesson for ya - from a "Southern gentlemen" born and bred in Kentucky.

"Kentucky Governor Beriah Magoffin proposed that slave states like Kentucky should conform to the amendments of the United States constitution and remain in the Union. When Lincoln requested 75,000 men to serve in the Union, Magoffin, a Southern sympathizer, countered that Kentucky would "...furnish no troops for the wicked purpose of subduing her sister southern states."* A proclamation was issued forbidding either the United States or the Confederate government to undertake any movement of troops or occupy any post on Kentucky soil, and further warned citizens of the state against taking part in hostilities. Kentucky had declared itself a neutral state to both Lincoln and Jefferson Davis; however, if neutrality was broken, the state pledged to become part of the Confederacy.

Kentucky's neutrality was broken when Confederate General Leonidas Polk invaded Columbus, Kentucky in 1861. The Kentucky Legislature, in response, passed a resolution directing the governor to demand the evacuation of Confederate forces from Kentucky soil. Magoffin vetoed the proclamation, but the legislature voted against Magoffin and the resolution was passed. The legislature further decided to back General Ulysses S. Grant and his Union troops stationed in Paducah on the grounds that the Confederacy voided the original pledge by breaking Kentucky's neutral status first. December 10, 1861, Kentucky became the 13th state "admitted" to the Confederacy. Kentucky, along with Missouri, was a state with representatives in both Congresses and with regiments in both Federal and Confederate armies. Alsog as a side note - both Lincoln and Jefferson (the Presidents of the Union and Confederacy) were both born in Kentucky! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its funny that Kentuckians and West Virginians are so quick to point that out, yet many Southerners do not look at Kentucky as a Southern state. I never have- its always been Midwestern to me.

having lived in Tennessee for 14 years and Kentucky for four years, they are different from about Elizabethtown north to Louisville.  Anything from E-town south through Bowling Green into Tennessee are pretty much the same.

I'd say you could split Kentucky in half along those lines and pretty much sum up the southern / northern debate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can live with that description

[sleepy]

I am from Kentucky and consider myself southern.

[Louisvilleslugger]

Louisville and Kentucky are Southern.

Kentucky is officailly defined by the U.S. CENSUS BURERU as a southern state. Also the majority of Kentucky was occupied by the Confederacy.

There is no way anyone can group Kentucky with Minnesota over Alabama culturally Kentucky has way!! more in common with the South. Also if you compare Kentucky with Indiana and Ohio to Tennessee and Viriginia Kentucky is like Tennessee's and Virginia's twin.

Louisville is also a Southern city with a little midwestern culture.

Some people get the term Midwestern and River city confused. The definition of a midwestern city is Minneanpolis (not St. Louis or Cincy which have southern influence which is why they are the only cities in the midwest that Louisville has alittle in common with). Then when you look at it like that Louisville has alot more in common with river cities like Memphis and New Orleans than STL and Cincy.

But the only midwestern influences that Louisville has is White Castles (midwestern stable) grippos, and a sizable Catholic population (The vast majority of Louisvillians are southern baptist, Kentucky has the third largest "Southern Baptist" population in the Nation) Yes Louisville was a major Industrial area ahundred years ago, But not b/c some people say we're midwestern, But b/c we were a major shipping port. Memphis, and New Orleans were also major southern shipping ports that had industry, But that doesn't make tham midwestern. Also Birmingham was a major industrial center for the South that isn't located on a river. That's the reason all those industrial cities I just list (ncluding midwestern cities) are declining in their cities. Then think about L&N (Louisville& Nashville) it isn't L&C (Louisville and chicago) that goes to show you unlike midwestern cities that closed all trade with the South Louisville kept it's ties with the South.

Plus if you take Louisville's culture and compare it with Minneanpolis (a hardcore midwestern city) and New Orleans (a hardcore southern city). Or compare Louisville to Nashville (a Southern city with close proximity to Louisville ) and to Indianapolis(a midwestern city with close proximity to Louisville) Louisville undoubtibly has 3x more in common with New Orleans and Nashville, And yall know that.

[Louisvilleslugger]

Also the urban core of louisville bleeds southern. From Derby, Kings chicken on every corner, The huge and Ancients Neighborhoods of old Louisville that are lined with them ancient victorian homes which are found throughout the South's cities.

Just about everybody in Louisville has an accent (exclidin eastern Jefferson county which is filled with out of towners). I use to live in ATL for 4 years and aside from the midwestern stables in Louisville there was almost no difference.

Whereas you are in a different world if you're from Louisville and go to Minneanapolis.

[Jacob Norlund - KC]

I've never been there, but I am pretty much sure that it is more Southern than anything.

Same with Southern IL and Southern MO.

[JivecitySTL]

Kentucky is a purely mid-southern state. Louisville is a mid-southern city. People in Kentucky speak with southern accents (please don't tell me they don't, I've been there several times). Any map of the US classifies Kentucky with the South. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that KY is a southern state. The only people who deny it are Kentuckians who are ashamed of that distinction.

[Louisvilleslugger]

Kentucky is a purely mid-southern state. Louisville is a mid-southern city. People in Kentucky speak with southern accents (please don't tell me they don't, I've been there several times). Any map of the US classifies Kentucky with the South. Therefore, it is safe to conclude that KY is a southern state. The only people who deny it are Kentuckians who are ashamed of that distinction.

Amen

[NCB]

I consider Kentucky to be a Southern state.

[Choirboy622]

While most of Kentucky fits all of the backward, redneck stereotypes most people have already heard, Louisville is a "state" all its own, IMO. I lived in Louisville for a year, and found it to be refreshingly different from the rest of Kentucky. As has already been said, there is a very sizeable Catholic population there. There is also a sizeable Jewish population. Indeed, the Louisville Metro mayor is a liberal Jewish Democrat. All the Louisville Metro Council has a Republican as its president, the council has a Democratic majority. The Louisville Metro is very progressive, and the metro council has passed an anti-discrimination ordinance (albeit along party lines), and also a recycling ordinance. I don't remember if the recycling ordinance was passed along party lines or not. I don't think this would ever happen in the rest of Kentcuky. Jefferson County was, I think, the only county to vote "blue" in the election last November.

B)

[ZachariahDaMan]

I definately think Kentucky is more of a southern state.

[Louisvilleslugger]

While most of Kentucky fits all of the backward, redneck stereotypes most people have already heard, Louisville is a "state" all its own, IMO. I lived in Louisville for a year, and found it to be refreshingly different from the rest of Kentucky. As has already been said, there is a very sizeable Catholic population there. There is also a sizeable Jewish population. Indeed, the Louisville Metro mayor is a liberal Jewish Democrat. All the Louisville Metro Council has a Republican as its president, the council has a Democratic majority. The Louisville Metro is very progressive, and the metro council has passed an anti-discrimination ordinance (albeit along party lines), and also a recycling ordinance. I don't remember if the recycling ordinance was passed along party lines or not. I don't think this would ever happen in the rest of Kentcuky. Jefferson County was, I think, the only county to vote "blue" in the election last November.

B)

[/quote}

Louisville is different from Kentucky when it comes to politics and religon, But when you think about it almost every state's largest city is either different, neglected, or hated by the rest of the state and Louisville is no exception. Just about every major Urban area voted blue in the past elections including Southern cities hell BIRMINHAM was listed as the most Liberal city in the country. And that all goes back to those Southern stereotypes that plague this region for centuries.

But everything else in Louisville points to the South, From History, population, and culture (especially culture). But let's not kid ourselfs every major Urban area have a difference population that brings different religons, But the vast majority of Louisville's population is Southern Baptist.

[Louisvilleslugger]

I also found Birmingham refreshing different from the rest of Alabama.

[Lexy]

Louisville and Kentucky are Southern.

Kentucky is officailly defined by the U.S. CENSUS BURERU as a southern state. Also the majority of Kentucky was occupied by the Confederacy.

There is no way anyone can group Kentucky with Minnesota over Alabama culturally Kentucky has way!! more in common with the South. Also if you compare Kentucky with Indiana and Ohio to Tennessee and Viriginia Kentucky is like Tennessee's and Virginia's twin.

Louisville is also a Southern city with a little midwestern culture.

Some people get the term Midwestern and River city confused. The definition of a midwestern city is Minneanpolis (not St. Louis or Cincy which have southern influence which is why they are the only cities in the midwest that Louisville has alittle in common with). Then when you look at it like that Louisville has alot more in common with river cities like Memphis and New Orleans than STL and Cincy.

But the only midwestern influences that Louisville has is White Castles (midwestern stable) grippos, and a sizable Catholic population (The vast majority of Louisvillians are southern baptist, Kentucky has the third largest "Southern Baptist" population in the Nation) Yes Louisville was a major Industrial area ahundred years ago, But not b/c some people say we're midwestern, But b/c we were a major shipping port. Memphis, and New Orleans were also major southern shipping ports that had industry, But that doesn't make tham midwestern. Also Birmingham was a major industrial center for the South that isn't located on a river. That's the reason all those industrial cities I just list (ncluding midwestern cities) are declining in their cities. Then think about L&N (Louisville& Nashville) it isn't L&C (Louisville and chicago) that goes to show you unlike midwestern cities that closed all trade with the South Louisville kept it's ties with the South.

Plus if you take Louisville's culture and compare it with Minneanpolis (a hardcore midwestern city) and New Orleans (a hardcore southern city). Or compare Louisville to Nashville (a Southern city with close proximity to Louisville ) and to Indianapolis(a midwestern city with close proximity to Louisville) Louisville undoubtibly has 3x more in common with New Orleans and Nashville, And yall know that.

Factually, Kentucky had more Union soldiers in the army. Look at ancestry.com and some other Civil War resources and it will tell you that while KY was a bordre state. It had about a three to one ratio of Union soldiers to Confederate.

[Rural King]

Mainly only Western, KY, in particular the Purchase Region, was overwhelmingly Confederate.

As for counties going blue, several more went blue than Jefferson, mainly rural counties that still have a strong enough Democratic tilt to overcome the south's national trend to go for Republicans in federal elections. In 2004 though Kentucky had alot of its holdout Western KY counties finally break red, in particular Fulton and Hickman Counties, which had not went in well over 100 years. To illustrate this, both still barely went for with the Democrat Ben Chandler over Republican Ernie Fletcher in the 03 election that saw the first Republican elected Governor in over 30 years and the Democrats lose control of the majority of statewide posts.

[Louisvilleslugger]

Factually, Kentucky had more Union soldiers in the army. Look at ancestry.com and some other Civil War resources and it will tell you that while KY was a bordre state. It had about a three to one ratio of Union soldiers to Confederate.

But most of the state (land wise) was occupied by the Confederacy (All rural states).

[Lexy]

But most of the state (land wise) was occupied by the Confederacy (All rural states).

I don't think so. It was a union state for the most part. How could it have more Union solders, and more Confederate occupied lands??? Nevertheless, it was still a more Union state than Confederate at least in the enlistment ranks and battles won category.

[Rural King]

I don't think so. It was a union state for the most part. How could it have more Union solders, and more Confederate occupied lands??? Nevertheless, it was still a more Union state than Confederate at least in the enlistment ranks and battles won category.

You are correct. Confederate forces under Gen. Albert Sydney Johnston moved north out of Tennessee early in the war and occupied Columbus KY as a key strategic choke point over the Mississippi River, which broke KY's neutrality. This prompted Gen. U.S. Grant to occupy Paducah and allowed for other Union forces to cross the Ohio and enter KY. The Confederates established a rather thin line across the southern half of the state running from Columbus over through Bowling Green out east to the Appalachian Mountians, which of course they were force to largely abandon for more secure locations further south in TN, due to the Union forces' ability to use their superior numbers to break the line anywhere they chose and the Confederates inability to cobble together enough forces from the states properly defend the line.

Now there was a major Confederate drive(Gen. Bragg's "KY Invasion") in the Summer and Fall of 1862 which occupied Frankfort, Lexington, and much of Central KY as they tried to install the Confederate Government of KY as the official government of the state, but that was quickly repelled southwards culminating in the Battle of Perryville, the largest battle fought in KY during the war.

[redjeep77]

I have NEVER thought of kentucky as southern. I also find it rather funny that the people from southern states don't think kentucky is southern while the people from the midwest don't think KY is in the midwest. Maybe kentucky is better off on its own agenda

[Louisvilleslugger]

I have NEVER thought of kentucky as southern. I also find it rather funny that the people from southern states don't think kentucky is southern while the people from the midwest don't think KY is in the midwest. Maybe kentucky is better off on its own agenda

Dude Kentucky is just as Southern as North Carolina and if you travel anywhere in the state (with the exception of the 3 counties boardering Cincinnati which are SOMEWHAT Midwestern) you obviously see the state is Southern. If you think most Southerners think Kentucky's midwestern than than just look at all the post on this thread and even the "Where the South begins and Ends" thread. It's pretty funny to call a state with gators in the Western swamps, Tea ( already sweetened), the Appalachain culture in the far eastern part of the state (Appalachaia extends as far South as Alabama and the culture all through that area is Identicle), has confederate flags everywhere you turn, had slaves, 3 distinct styles of BBQ, Ect, midwestern

I mean honestly you're saying Kentucky is better off in a region with Minnesota and Wisconsin, Than it's sister Southern states such as Alabama and Louisiana, after comparing the cultures of these states is obvious to see Kentucky undoutibly belongs in the South, and is ridiculous to say we're midwestern

True enough Kentucky ain't exactly a Deep South state, But to say that no Southerner considers Kentucky Southern is just ridiculous. I lived in Georgia for the last 4 years and when a native asked me where I was from and I said Kentucky 7/10 they'd laugh and call me some country name that would stick with me for the next 4 years. I mean you make it seem like we're trying to justify MARYLAND as a Southern state just because it's below the Mason Dixon, But every Southerner knows you're hard pressed to find someone with a Southern accent, let alone someone who can cook sweet potatos, or BBQ in Maryland. But we're talking about Kentucky man everythings Southern

[Rural King]

There are no "gators" in wet-lands of Western Kentucky. LOL Or in West Tennessee. I grew up and live over in/by the western ends of those states, I can assure you I would know if there were. Poisonous water-snakes we have, alligators not so much. I figure you have to go down near the Gulf Coast with its waterways and wetlands to find many alligators.

[monodelmar]

KY History:

--Pioneer families came from NY, NJ, PA, MD, DE, as well as VA and NC. VA and PA contributed the most. KY was the original American West, and it was considered western before areas to its north or south were settled.

--Civil War--KY was strongly Union and strongly pro-slavery. The state's economy did not come to depend on slavery as did the South's because KY lies too far north for growing cotton (Nashvillle lies around the northern limit). However, the cultural & political centers of 1800s KY (Lexington, Danville--the Bluegrass) strongly favored slavery and profited from slave trading. At the same time, the state was home to a vocal abolition movement. In the war, 75% of enlisted soldiers fought for the Union. Southern sympathizers fled south to TN to form raiding parties (e.g. John Hunt Morgan and the Orphan Brigade). The Confederacy strongly wanted KY to join, and in fact invaded the state's southern counties, holding Russellville and declaring Bowling Green the capital of Confederate KY. However, the Confederates fled ahead of advancing Union troops after a few months.

--after the Civil War: Louisville had the industrial capacity that no Confederate city had even before the war (Richmond being the South's major industrial center). Louisville businesses quickly marketed themselves as southern to capture a large share of the carpetbagging/reconstruction industry. John Hunt Morgan, who had raided the state during the war, was celebrated as a local hero.

KY Geography:

--In proximity, it's a shorter drive from Lexington to Detroit than to Atlanta. 2/3 of the state's population lives in a county bordering the Ohio River.

--Most of the state is hilly to rolling. Eastern KY, topographically, belongs with WV and PA and eastern TN. Western KY belongs with the rest of the mid-Mississippi valley (SE MO, S IL, NE AR, W TN). Central KY has some level agricultural areas: the Bluegrass, around Lexington, and the Barrens, around Bowling Green. It also has some very hilly areas (visit Mammoth Cave or Muldrough's Hill).

KY self-identification:

--Most Kentuckians hold a strong sense of geographic identity. Some Midwestern-minded Kentuckians ignore all things Southern about their state or claim their part of the state is different from the rest. Some Southern-minded Kentuckians will bend the state's history to be more Southern; they will claim all the state's pioneers came from the Virginia Tidewater, and they will claim ancestors fought for the Confederacy. Both sides will passionately argue these points.

KY accent:

--In linguistics, there is a theory of the Midland dialect, a distinct dialect apart from the South and the Great Lakes. I believe that dialect exists in most of KY including Louisville and Lexington. In Hopkinsville, Bowling Green, and Somerset, however, one is more likely to hear "y'all." (Most Kentuckians will say "you all" as two distinct words or "you guys.")

My conclusion: I have lived in Louisville, Lexington, and Bowling Green, and my relatives live mostly in Indiana and Tennessee (and my in-laws in West Virginia). One cannot reasonably conclude that KY is in a different region than either TN or IN. At the same time, one cannot classify IN and TN in the same region.... I think the area between I-70 and I-40 forms a gray area between Midwest and South, a Midland. If one wants to place Kentucky in either region, it just depends on the measure used. It could fall either way....

--2/3 of the population is more midwestern than southern; 2/3 of the land area is more southern than midwestern.

--White Castle holds Louisville and Lexington. Krystal dominates Bowling Green.

--Grits or Cream of Wheat? I have never tried grits....